Pilots changing career
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Does anybody know what the equivalent qualifications an ATPL would equate too ie: A levels, Degree, BTEC higher Diploma??
Surely education authorities and multi national companies must give some credit to the amount of studying undertaken to gain and hold an ATPL.
Surely education authorities and multi national companies must give some credit to the amount of studying undertaken to gain and hold an ATPL.
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Some time ago, I read some where that an ATPL Theory course was considered to be equivalent to a 2 year degree course. However, I can no longer find the source of the quote.
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I can no longer find the source of the quote
The ATPL theory is 15/16 year old school exam level.
The vocational side of things mean that under national credits a CPL is equivelent to an HNC and ATPL equiv to a HND. Some courses will give you a thing called a foundation degree which you can also gain from doing the Management course working for MAcDonalds.
If you get up to TRI/TRE level I believe it equiv to an ordinary degree. There is a load of stuff on the open university web site some where on all the vocational crossover credits.
But thats all down the vocational line of qualifications and is only of use if your looking to gain credits to allow you to go in say at second year level on an academic degree.
There are loads and loads of pilots out there with tertiary education even ones that can't spell
and to compare ATPL to a proper degree would be insulting what we had achieved if it wasn't so funny.
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mad jock, in an attempt to find the quote via Google, it appears that this is one subject that always gets your goat! 
I agree with you but was simply stating what I thought I had seen written. Anyway, the one liner does exist and goes back several years but it was on the subject of the South African ATP.
I agree with you but was simply stating what I thought I had seen written. Anyway, the one liner does exist and goes back several years but it was on the subject of the South African ATP.
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Don’t know what degree MJ studied but 6 months full time in a flying school classroom can never equate to 3 years or more full time in a university lecture hall. Perhaps an ATPL is harder than some degrees (anyone for surf studies or theology) however anyone that has experienced Engineering Maths Level 3 will give a pretty vigorous argument that their course is harder and that the ATPL theory doesn’t come close.
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Funny you should say that
BEng (Hons) Mechnical Engineering.
And Theology, well the course that The Church of Scotland Ministers have to take isn't for the faint hearted.
I used to help a couple of them out with thier structures which they did a bit of so they could understand how the church roof stay up or more to the point how to spot when it was about to come down.
But you also have to add in the practical side of things and experence which leads to holding an ATPL which is why its given more credit than a CPL.
TRI/TRE will have undergone core courses and other addtional teaching and assement courses. And the foundation degree dosn't require any orginal research.
BEng (Hons) Mechnical Engineering.
And Theology, well the course that The Church of Scotland Ministers have to take isn't for the faint hearted.
I used to help a couple of them out with thier structures which they did a bit of so they could understand how the church roof stay up or more to the point how to spot when it was about to come down.
But you also have to add in the practical side of things and experence which leads to holding an ATPL which is why its given more credit than a CPL.
TRI/TRE will have undergone core courses and other addtional teaching and assement courses. And the foundation degree dosn't require any orginal research.
Last edited by mad_jock; 12th Mar 2013 at 12:10.
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Another here who's walked away from aviation, as much as I love the industry I hate it equally and it was a tough descision to turn my back on it after nearly 20 years involved inc RAF and various civi ground roles..
My business partner is also a ex RN fast jet jockey and was close to spunking his savings converting to a civi licence, but didnt and we now have a field based activity centre with off road driving, hovercraft driving and time trials and links with similar local companies to able to offer a whole array of fun stuff to do!
Il still keep what I've got current but just fly privatly when I want, running your own business is hard work but enjoyable and I doubt I could go and work for someone else again.
My business partner is also a ex RN fast jet jockey and was close to spunking his savings converting to a civi licence, but didnt and we now have a field based activity centre with off road driving, hovercraft driving and time trials and links with similar local companies to able to offer a whole array of fun stuff to do!
Il still keep what I've got current but just fly privatly when I want, running your own business is hard work but enjoyable and I doubt I could go and work for someone else again.
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Obviously someone who understands the pain of engineering maths, mine was an electronics BEng but the maths are equally hard and the least said about Scottish ministers (at least the catholic ones) the better at the moment!!!!!!!!!
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No part of the ATPL's is equivelent to any part of a degree.
Yes there is a largish volume of content. But the actual level of it is suited to 14-15 year olds how ever much they want to tart it up.
If they started requiring you to understand the principles behind the concepts in the ATPL subjects it might be a different story. But to be honest there is no requirment for that level to work as a pilot or even for that matter an engineer that fixes aircraft. I would hope that the ones that design the aircraft would know though.
Yes there is a largish volume of content. But the actual level of it is suited to 14-15 year olds how ever much they want to tart it up.
If they started requiring you to understand the principles behind the concepts in the ATPL subjects it might be a different story. But to be honest there is no requirment for that level to work as a pilot or even for that matter an engineer that fixes aircraft. I would hope that the ones that design the aircraft would know though.
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FYI Jock, in a lot of countries who use points based immigration schemes such as Australia / New Zealand, an ATPL licence is given the same number of points as a Master's degree.
Yes you might argue that it's physics at the 15 - 16 year old level, but you know what, these days you can go to a "community college" and smoke pot for 3 years while you study underwater basket weaving or organic kaftan designing and end up with a "degree", so I'd argue the ATPL is just as valid if not more so. I know I put a damn sight more work into my ATPL than I did into my B.A. ( philosophy major
) so it seems only fair 
Yes you might argue that it's physics at the 15 - 16 year old level, but you know what, these days you can go to a "community college" and smoke pot for 3 years while you study underwater basket weaving or organic kaftan designing and end up with a "degree", so I'd argue the ATPL is just as valid if not more so. I know I put a damn sight more work into my ATPL than I did into my B.A. ( philosophy major
) so it seems only fair
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Some of are gifted with the ablity to think in certain ways. For those that are technically minded the ATPL's aren't very hard. Those that have a more philisophy way of thinking it will be harder.
That being said I suspect I would fail the aged 16 philosphy exam so it doesn't change the level which it is at.
A degree is a qualification in organised thinking. It should require original thought, processing and documenting.
The hammering a question bank followed by fannying around a procedure with only one donk working doesn't really meet the bill.
I can understand the points scheme because they are looking to not let in people likely to require resources from the social system. And ATPL is up there with a masters if you wanting to come into the country and have a job already. I presume a Masters cert for supertankers is in the same level. But you won't hear of them claiming they are degree qualified. They are proud at the fact they are a master of a huge ship.
And way the immigration thing is more a sliding shopping list for talent if you want a certain range of skills you make it easier to get in. Things change and an ATPL will have the same level as a sheep shearer.
That being said I suspect I would fail the aged 16 philosphy exam so it doesn't change the level which it is at.
A degree is a qualification in organised thinking. It should require original thought, processing and documenting.
The hammering a question bank followed by fannying around a procedure with only one donk working doesn't really meet the bill.
I can understand the points scheme because they are looking to not let in people likely to require resources from the social system. And ATPL is up there with a masters if you wanting to come into the country and have a job already. I presume a Masters cert for supertankers is in the same level. But you won't hear of them claiming they are degree qualified. They are proud at the fact they are a master of a huge ship.
And way the immigration thing is more a sliding shopping list for talent if you want a certain range of skills you make it easier to get in. Things change and an ATPL will have the same level as a sheep shearer.
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Are you a commercial pilot , Mad Jock ? If so you don't sound very impressed with your achievements.
I've known lots of ex school friends who have done degrees ( they never ) used and half of those were thick as ....
I don't claim the ATPLs put me up there with Hawking, but to the average layman in the street they are like an academic mountain.
I've known lots of ex school friends who have done degrees ( they never ) used and half of those were thick as ....
I don't claim the ATPLs put me up there with Hawking, but to the average layman in the street they are like an academic mountain.
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ATPL's "are like an academic mountain"!
I do not think that is the intention by MJ, just stating the obvious facts, it's not a very difficult level of maths or engineering required to achieve your ATPL's!
I think one of the reasons that we do have to many "wannabes", is the dumbing down of the ATPL's subjects, I mean even idiots can get trough it now, within the number of allowed attempts they have!
I blame QB's and multiple choice questions for this, not sure how it was in the UK in the old days, but if it had been ordinary written answers instead of multiple choice, you would have been able to get away far many of the thick ones, but of course it would have mean less students being attracted to go trough the training, and less money for the FTO's!
I believe the ATPL's in today's format is a joke, and are far to easy! Than I guess, this is what the bean counters want! Lot's of pilots believing they can become pilots!
I do not think that is the intention by MJ, just stating the obvious facts, it's not a very difficult level of maths or engineering required to achieve your ATPL's!
I think one of the reasons that we do have to many "wannabes", is the dumbing down of the ATPL's subjects, I mean even idiots can get trough it now, within the number of allowed attempts they have!
I blame QB's and multiple choice questions for this, not sure how it was in the UK in the old days, but if it had been ordinary written answers instead of multiple choice, you would have been able to get away far many of the thick ones, but of course it would have mean less students being attracted to go trough the training, and less money for the FTO's!
I believe the ATPL's in today's format is a joke, and are far to easy! Than I guess, this is what the bean counters want! Lot's of pilots believing they can become pilots!
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Agree with you truck!
I know of someone who threw enough money at it and eventually got through, despite clearly not having the aptitude as proved by the number of exams attempts and years it took to pass the exams! And this isn't far off what this generation of the "Wannabe Zombie Army" are doing... I sincerely hope I'm out of it by the time this generation of numptys are LHS/Trainers/Management...
Right, back to trying to find the Grand Prix on Chinese TV...!!!!!
I know of someone who threw enough money at it and eventually got through, despite clearly not having the aptitude as proved by the number of exams attempts and years it took to pass the exams! And this isn't far off what this generation of the "Wannabe Zombie Army" are doing... I sincerely hope I'm out of it by the time this generation of numptys are LHS/Trainers/Management...
Right, back to trying to find the Grand Prix on Chinese TV...!!!!!
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Yes commercial and ATPL and LTC.
More than happy being proud of being a pilot. I just know that its a skill set which is seperate to the degree job I used to do.
There is a marked difference in how the degree qualified pilots tackle problems both in the air and dealing with documentaion on the ground.
The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.
The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.
I am also aware that there is an old school and a new school grouping of pilots. The pilots from the years of morse and the different performance exams and multiple plots in general NAV had a completely different foundation in the ATPL subjects. But even they didn't have the training in logical problem definition and solution.
More than happy being proud of being a pilot. I just know that its a skill set which is seperate to the degree job I used to do.
There is a marked difference in how the degree qualified pilots tackle problems both in the air and dealing with documentaion on the ground.
The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.
The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.
I am also aware that there is an old school and a new school grouping of pilots. The pilots from the years of morse and the different performance exams and multiple plots in general NAV had a completely different foundation in the ATPL subjects. But even they didn't have the training in logical problem definition and solution.
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ha...even easier with an online banking system, the key word is 'Bristol'. Some people without studying their ground atpls can acheive pass marks just by remembering the answers. ( all Word by word).
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The vast majority of professional (and school/college) exams these days are multiple choice and the ATPL exams aren't the only ones for which you can find question banks. I worked in an industry where you are better of studying the subject altogether through question banks, rather than reading the out of date waffle offered inside text books (sounds familiar? 
)
Multiple choice is the way of the world now and provides us all with safe guards and common standards, in my opinion a much fairer way of examination marking. From an examiner's point of view, can you imagine sitting down and reading/marking answers hand written by people who speak English only as a second language?
)Multiple choice is the way of the world now and provides us all with safe guards and common standards, in my opinion a much fairer way of examination marking. From an examiner's point of view, can you imagine sitting down and reading/marking answers hand written by people who speak English only as a second language?