Where are the official statistics?
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Look to the US
I recently saw a TV show on an American public TV station about some US Universities mis-representing the opportunities available to law school graduates and the salary expectations on completion of the course.
One University guaranteed a job placement within 12 months. The only problem was that it didn't have to be in a law related field. This was only found out after reading the pages of fine print in the University admission papers everyone had to sign before starting the course.
These Universities now have class action law suits against them!
I take the position of thinking that anyone wanting money from me for goods and services should be viewed as used car salesman. This means he will tell you almost anything to get you to buy it. He will sail very close to legal wind whilst doing it as well. The saleman know what he can and can't say and can make very matter of fact comments sound like he is making a statement the he would have to back up legally.
"In my opinion this car is perfect" When you drive it out of the yard and the wheels fall off you will get a reply of "that was only my opinion", It wasn't binding statement.
The problem with aviation is that the general public view anyone doing pilot training as very well off and if they get ripped off well they can afford it.
One University guaranteed a job placement within 12 months. The only problem was that it didn't have to be in a law related field. This was only found out after reading the pages of fine print in the University admission papers everyone had to sign before starting the course.
These Universities now have class action law suits against them!
I take the position of thinking that anyone wanting money from me for goods and services should be viewed as used car salesman. This means he will tell you almost anything to get you to buy it. He will sail very close to legal wind whilst doing it as well. The saleman know what he can and can't say and can make very matter of fact comments sound like he is making a statement the he would have to back up legally.
"In my opinion this car is perfect" When you drive it out of the yard and the wheels fall off you will get a reply of "that was only my opinion", It wasn't binding statement.
The problem with aviation is that the general public view anyone doing pilot training as very well off and if they get ripped off well they can afford it.
Last edited by tarmac12; 23rd Jan 2012 at 01:58.
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Commercially Sensitive my Arse
Fee paying school results and rankings in the UK:
Best Schools : League Tables
And what are the compulsary punctuality performance results for airlines if not commercially sensitive?
I can find thousand of websites detailing free school results but nothing for very expensive aviation courses?
Best Schools : League Tables
And what are the compulsary punctuality performance results for airlines if not commercially sensitive?
I can find thousand of websites detailing free school results but nothing for very expensive aviation courses?
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PPRuNe Towers - You are on the same track as me. It’s a pity that this area of aviation does not get looked at.
Would this be because the whole training to become a pilot is not viewed as a professional qualification?
Perhaps it is about time that training to become a pilot should be subject to scrutiny and be included as a professional qualification of some sort. Like a degree is. Where the flight schools get ranked and scrutinized according to their standards. And perhaps have system like an Ofsted report.
Food for thought.
Would this be because the whole training to become a pilot is not viewed as a professional qualification?
Perhaps it is about time that training to become a pilot should be subject to scrutiny and be included as a professional qualification of some sort. Like a degree is. Where the flight schools get ranked and scrutinized according to their standards. And perhaps have system like an Ofsted report.
Food for thought.
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DEFICIENT DATA
It would be useful for the CAA to track successful conversions fATPL to ATPL - they of course will have that data but it is sadly deficient on their website.
I wonder why?
I wonder why?
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Figures
Good point about the fATPL to ATPL.
Actually I think that it is just a matter of calling them. I don't think that they intentionally keeps these figures a secret.
I called my local CAA couple of days ago, and they where very helpful providing me the figures that they had at hand...interesting I think. The figures does say a lot about how the job situation is developing...or degrading when you compare to the number of jobs in the country. It should be mandatory reading for every one who thinks about a career as a pilot.
Actually I think that it is just a matter of calling them. I don't think that they intentionally keeps these figures a secret.
I called my local CAA couple of days ago, and they where very helpful providing me the figures that they had at hand...interesting I think. The figures does say a lot about how the job situation is developing...or degrading when you compare to the number of jobs in the country. It should be mandatory reading for every one who thinks about a career as a pilot.
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In the UK I doudt very much they would know how many folk have cpl/IR and MCC mainly because MCC isn't recorded and as such is just a tick in the box course which the person has to present a cert for.
As for the how many ATPL's issued it is already listed.
The stuff to me that would be interesting is.
1.Number of intial class 1 medicals.
2.Number of 14 theory passes complete
3. Number of CPL's issued
4. Number of intial multiengine IR's issued (not the current number of post license, the whole lot on one year)
5. Number of intial type ratings issued.
Would someone like to contact their MP and see ifthey can get them to extract such information?
As for the how many ATPL's issued it is already listed.
The stuff to me that would be interesting is.
1.Number of intial class 1 medicals.
2.Number of 14 theory passes complete
3. Number of CPL's issued
4. Number of intial multiengine IR's issued (not the current number of post license, the whole lot on one year)
5. Number of intial type ratings issued.
Would someone like to contact their MP and see ifthey can get them to extract such information?
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You are right about MCC, but from frozen ATPL to ATPL they would probably have the figures.
Can you explain why you think these figures are interesting?
I think that almost everyone who obtain their CPL will go on and get their MEIR and frozen ATPL. The interesting thing is how many get their professional licenses per year. That is the picture, as I see it, of the amount of new pilots per year that needs to be absorbed by the job-marked. I realize that it is different in the UK due to the amount of foreigners training there.
And yes, type ratings issued would also be interesting.
Can you explain why you think these figures are interesting?
I think that almost everyone who obtain their CPL will go on and get their MEIR and frozen ATPL. The interesting thing is how many get their professional licenses per year. That is the picture, as I see it, of the amount of new pilots per year that needs to be absorbed by the job-marked. I realize that it is different in the UK due to the amount of foreigners training there.
And yes, type ratings issued would also be interesting.
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There isn't such a license as frozen ATPL.
It is used to denote Cpl/IR ATPL theory passed and MCC done.
But as such it doesn't actually excist.
Every one gets a blue CPL license. Be it they pay 30 grand for the training or 80k for the training.
It is used to denote Cpl/IR ATPL theory passed and MCC done.
But as such it doesn't actually excist.
Every one gets a blue CPL license. Be it they pay 30 grand for the training or 80k for the training.
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Okay. Well, the interesting thing is how many of those who get a CPL MEIR licenses goes on and gets a full ATPL. Even just the amount of CPL's issued are very interesting. But you need the figures for more countries to make it real interesting. And also the number of jobs in the corresponding country...or maybe the amount of commercial planes operated by that country.
Scratchingthesky:
If you where able to live for the money you earned from your instructor job, I think it's fine to list you as employed.
The school's are definitely bending the truth often. I have even heard direct lies from my own school when they where trying to recruit new students. That's why it is unfortunate that there doesn’t exist an alternate source of information/statistics regarding employment/unemployment etc. I don't think that you have a really good chance of estimating the chances of getting a job at the end of your training, before you start. Everybody knows that it is not easy...but the actual desperate situation is most often not known. If it where known, I think people would give it a little more thought - both parents and the young guys considering flight training.
Scratchingthesky:
If you where able to live for the money you earned from your instructor job, I think it's fine to list you as employed.
The school's are definitely bending the truth often. I have even heard direct lies from my own school when they where trying to recruit new students. That's why it is unfortunate that there doesn’t exist an alternate source of information/statistics regarding employment/unemployment etc. I don't think that you have a really good chance of estimating the chances of getting a job at the end of your training, before you start. Everybody knows that it is not easy...but the actual desperate situation is most often not known. If it where known, I think people would give it a little more thought - both parents and the young guys considering flight training.
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No, I'm not joking.
You got yourself a job which makes you employed. But I understand that it's hard or impossible to live and pay of debt on that salary. Sure, the schools makes it sound way easier than it is to get a job. And in the end there is not a job for everyone. Maybe half, maybe more or less. It's all guessing and that is why I think we should try to gather information from local CAA's regarding the amount of CPL's etc. issued each year. These figures can then be compared to the amount of pilot jobs in each country. Maybe start with the JAA-area.
You got yourself a job which makes you employed. But I understand that it's hard or impossible to live and pay of debt on that salary. Sure, the schools makes it sound way easier than it is to get a job. And in the end there is not a job for everyone. Maybe half, maybe more or less. It's all guessing and that is why I think we should try to gather information from local CAA's regarding the amount of CPL's etc. issued each year. These figures can then be compared to the amount of pilot jobs in each country. Maybe start with the JAA-area.
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It is just a matter of using a bit of time on collecting the figures, they seem to be available if you just call your local CAA.
I don't think that the flight schools will have no one to train, but they would have less to train if people really understood the job-situation that follows when you finish flight training. And that is only fair, in my opinion, since today they train much more people than needed.
When people have invested time and money in a professional flying certificate, they are very dedicated to getting all the way to a job. This means paying more money for type ratings, FI ratings, line training etc on their way.
In the end there is not a job for everyone and the ones who did not get a job will have lost a lot of money and that's a shame. It would be alright if it was just a small percentage of people finishing flight training, that would in some way be natural. But in this industry it seems to be a very big percentage who ends up having to find another career.
Again it is hard to say for sure when there is no data available to judge from. You can only judge from your personal experience. That is what everybody do and even though they are often right when complaining about the missing jobs, it's a little hard to base any decisions on. Specially if your are new to the game.
Some real numbers and figures collected from the CAA's and other reliable sources would make a big difference.
I don't think that the flight schools will have no one to train, but they would have less to train if people really understood the job-situation that follows when you finish flight training. And that is only fair, in my opinion, since today they train much more people than needed.
When people have invested time and money in a professional flying certificate, they are very dedicated to getting all the way to a job. This means paying more money for type ratings, FI ratings, line training etc on their way.
In the end there is not a job for everyone and the ones who did not get a job will have lost a lot of money and that's a shame. It would be alright if it was just a small percentage of people finishing flight training, that would in some way be natural. But in this industry it seems to be a very big percentage who ends up having to find another career.
Again it is hard to say for sure when there is no data available to judge from. You can only judge from your personal experience. That is what everybody do and even though they are often right when complaining about the missing jobs, it's a little hard to base any decisions on. Specially if your are new to the game.
Some real numbers and figures collected from the CAA's and other reliable sources would make a big difference.
