Easyjet New Ab-initio scheme :)
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I work with pilots who either are or have been cadet entry pilots through these schemes, and have done so for many years. For pilots seriously contemplating an airline career at the 250 hour level this is pretty much the only game in town.
I do not work for, nor draw any benefit from any flying school or third party training provider.
If you want me to say that airline employment is likely for 250 hour CPL/IR holders outside of one of these schemes if they just wait long enough, then I am more than happy to do that. However it just isn't true. It never has been, and there is nothing to suggest it will be in the foreseeable future.
The best entry advice is either work your way up to the required direct entry experience levels (typically 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine experience,) or get accepted on to an affiliated cadet programme. If you don't think that is accurate advice, then do what you like. These companies have boxes full of CV's (resumes) that dont meet the minimum criteria, and will never see the light of day. This is simply because they have boxes full of CV's that do meet, and often significantly exceed the minimum criteria, and only a few of these will be considered for second stage interview.
I am not selling you something. I am simply telling you something. If you don't want to hear it, or don't believe it, then that is fine.
I do not work for, nor draw any benefit from any flying school or third party training provider.
If you want me to say that airline employment is likely for 250 hour CPL/IR holders outside of one of these schemes if they just wait long enough, then I am more than happy to do that. However it just isn't true. It never has been, and there is nothing to suggest it will be in the foreseeable future.
The best entry advice is either work your way up to the required direct entry experience levels (typically 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine experience,) or get accepted on to an affiliated cadet programme. If you don't think that is accurate advice, then do what you like. These companies have boxes full of CV's (resumes) that dont meet the minimum criteria, and will never see the light of day. This is simply because they have boxes full of CV's that do meet, and often significantly exceed the minimum criteria, and only a few of these will be considered for second stage interview.
I am not selling you something. I am simply telling you something. If you don't want to hear it, or don't believe it, then that is fine.
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why do you care anyway?, we all know they use the "carrot" to attract sons of dad who has pockets filled with gold!
they don't even know what mean work and save.They never worked in their life, 6they dont have even a profession or a uni degree.
Is this the kind of people what easyjet want?just a bunch of spoiled kids?
after their 500h, total 700, Easyjet will kick them out to keep the seat for a new sucker.
with a MPL, you can go nowhere! you can not even fly a piper!
once you get experience, airlines prefer to kick you out. You don't cost anything, experience worths ****, specially on these automatic planes like the A319, and they can make money with another desperate pilots.
modular= less money, no job at the end.
integrated MPL=no money left, some hours on the bus paid ****, and then unemployed with a udge loan to pay back.
what a choice!
they don't even know what mean work and save.They never worked in their life, 6they dont have even a profession or a uni degree.
Is this the kind of people what easyjet want?just a bunch of spoiled kids?
after their 500h, total 700, Easyjet will kick them out to keep the seat for a new sucker.
with a MPL, you can go nowhere! you can not even fly a piper!
once you get experience, airlines prefer to kick you out. You don't cost anything, experience worths ****, specially on these automatic planes like the A319, and they can make money with another desperate pilots.
modular= less money, no job at the end.
integrated MPL=no money left, some hours on the bus paid ****, and then unemployed with a udge loan to pay back.
what a choice!
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 27th Apr 2011 at 05:33.
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I don't think we should berate Bealzebub for calling a spade a spade ... I welcome his contributions.
Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable, but it is nonetheless the truth - and the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can all get on with enjoying our lives.
I work for a Big Airline in a job that sees me fly with flightcrew on longhaul flights on a weekly basis - I have had PLENTY of opportunity to speak to flightcrew regarding their thoughts on training to become a professional pilot. I have even spoken to the head of pilot recruitment for this Big Airline.
All I can say is that they back up the comments provided by Bealzebub.
Applying for the easyJet MPL cadet programme is only one path to becoming a pilot. If it doesn't suit your circumstances or you don't agree with the conditions, then don't apply.
Personally this programme wasn't for me, so I declined to apply.
But live, and let live...some people are prepared to pay for all of their own training, including type rating...fair enough. Such is life. Let's accept the way the world is, and move on...no one has been forced to apply to the scheme.
The airline industry has changed irrevocably over the last 10,20 ...30 years. It is constantly changing; but short of being able to power aircraft engines on some cheap alternative fuel, or society being prepeared to pay a lot more for air travel, I can't see us going back to the days of fully-sponsored training in the UK (even then, airlines would get their investment back from you in one form or another).
I'm aware that there are companies out there that do pay for a portion, or indeed the entire cost of a cadet's training up-front (Lufthansa, Emirates, Cathay and so on), but each company's circumstances are different - who knows what tax breaks or other incentives those companies may have to pay on their cadets' behalf up-front. Either way, the student pilot will end up paying in one form or another. True, a company bond may be preferable to a commercial loan, which is why some schemes are better than others ...
More preferable still is just being plain rich, buying your own aircraft and flying for fun.
Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable, but it is nonetheless the truth - and the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can all get on with enjoying our lives.
I work for a Big Airline in a job that sees me fly with flightcrew on longhaul flights on a weekly basis - I have had PLENTY of opportunity to speak to flightcrew regarding their thoughts on training to become a professional pilot. I have even spoken to the head of pilot recruitment for this Big Airline.
All I can say is that they back up the comments provided by Bealzebub.
Applying for the easyJet MPL cadet programme is only one path to becoming a pilot. If it doesn't suit your circumstances or you don't agree with the conditions, then don't apply.
Personally this programme wasn't for me, so I declined to apply.
But live, and let live...some people are prepared to pay for all of their own training, including type rating...fair enough. Such is life. Let's accept the way the world is, and move on...no one has been forced to apply to the scheme.
The airline industry has changed irrevocably over the last 10,20 ...30 years. It is constantly changing; but short of being able to power aircraft engines on some cheap alternative fuel, or society being prepeared to pay a lot more for air travel, I can't see us going back to the days of fully-sponsored training in the UK (even then, airlines would get their investment back from you in one form or another).
I'm aware that there are companies out there that do pay for a portion, or indeed the entire cost of a cadet's training up-front (Lufthansa, Emirates, Cathay and so on), but each company's circumstances are different - who knows what tax breaks or other incentives those companies may have to pay on their cadets' behalf up-front. Either way, the student pilot will end up paying in one form or another. True, a company bond may be preferable to a commercial loan, which is why some schemes are better than others ...
More preferable still is just being plain rich, buying your own aircraft and flying for fun.
Last edited by Smell the Coffee; 27th Apr 2011 at 07:18.
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Whatever you have to tell yourself Bealzebub...there are plenty of opportunities for those that want to work for them and earn their way up. Suggesting that there arent is very shortsighted.
The problem lies with the immediate satisfaction required in todays lifestyle and the need to have "it" now, not 2-3 years from now! The sense of entitlement and the greedy companies that are feeding on this are killing the pilot profession.
Are any of these "academies" not for profit companies?
Didnt think so!
The problem lies with the immediate satisfaction required in todays lifestyle and the need to have "it" now, not 2-3 years from now! The sense of entitlement and the greedy companies that are feeding on this are killing the pilot profession.
Are any of these "academies" not for profit companies?
Didnt think so!
The subject here is airline employment (in the UK for the most part,) and not flying around the African plains or the lakes of Northern Canada. Not only that, but it is airline employment for low hour commercial pilots (at the base 200 hour level.) It is a subject I have considerable knowledge of, in a real world context, and feel qualified to properly comment on. It doesn't bother me one tiny bit if people refute it or ignore it. I don't profit at all either way. What I am doing, is telling it the way it is. Not the way you (or anybody else) might wish it was, or the way you would like it to be, but simply the way it is.
If you want to discuss the "opportunities" for low houred pilots working their way up through the system, that is fine, but it isn't really relevant to these schemes or the subject matter of this thread is it? (and as you would say in accordance with your customary rhetoric)...No, I didn't think so!"
If you let the chip on your shoulder heal for a while, assessed your own myopia, and took the time to read, you would realize that I have always highlighted the usual career paths towards airline pilot employment. One of those paths is to increase the level of personal experience whereby you qualify for the usual 2000 hour 500 turbine qualification. For many people that path is not as easy as it might sound either, but again that is for discussion in another thread.
What we are addressing here is airline cadet employment at the 250 hour level. Far too many people believe that no matter how they acquire the CPL/IR and those 250 hours, they are still likely to qualify for this type of employment. That just isn't true. Far from encouraging people to believe something, I am (if anything) doing the opposite. The only real airline pilot employment opportunities at this level of experience, are through the cadet schemes, and in turn those schemes are run through a few integrated training providers. They are not run in Florida. They are not run on the Canadian lakes, and they not run on the African veldt.
Even before the recent recession a growing number of UK (and other countries) airlines were taking on entry level cadets into their employment structures. The cadets needed to have completed a full time course of approved training at whatever school that programme affiliated itself with. Pre-selection, training and presentation was (and is) usually carried out by the school. The syllabus the individual follows, the training records and progress are all monitored by the customer airlines. The cadet is a known quantity to the airline when they start employment training. There is some degree of guarantee, flexibility, assurance and cost saving for the airline customer. Historically the cadet as an end product has been good, and presented few if any problems.
So when somebody asks the question, "How do I become an airline first officer with only 250 hours?" The answer must sensibly be, through one of these schemes. How much it costs, or what debts you might incur is already highlighted in general discussion without me necessarily reinforcing the financial risks involved (although I have done many times.) If somebody wants to say, "No go modular" or "No fly the Canadian lakes for a few years" or whatever, that is fine. However it doesn't answer the question.
Whatever your moralistic preachings, or views on the greed of companies, or the state of the industry, may be. None of that changes the reality of the marketplace, nor will it. I am stating the way it is, so people can make their own informed choice. It doesn't concern me what choice they make, or what their situation is or might be as a result of those choices. I didn't create this situation, however I have seen it evolve over the last 30 years.
A lot of people here believe that their own future model is the way forward, either because they truly believe that, or because they are already commited to it. As such, their advice centres on what other people have said, or general hearsay, or what they hope might happen. Inevitably some get very annoyed when the facts get in the way of some of the popular fiction.
The company I work for has just recruited for this year. The company is representative of the broader airline industry generally. This year we have taken on around 20 new first officers. About half of that number are experienced pilots (as already defined). The remainder are cadets through an established affiliated training provider. None are 250 hour wannabes from any other source.
Look again at the title of this thread, and tell me what it is you don't understand?
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I used to be a member of the camp advocating the cheaper modular route, and even started following that route - upto PPL. However, the simple fact - the fact which you are berating Beazlebub for - is that if you want to fly in the airlines, in the UK, without spending years earning a minimum wage, then you have to join one of the airline cadet schemes, through an integrated school. It's not Beazlebub's deranged and offensive opinion, it's a fact.
From a purely financial stand point the integrated courses are also quite easy to make an argument for. From the date the blue ATPL license is issued [modular pilot] may have saved £50k versus [integrated pilot], but over the next 10 years I would suggest the vast majority, if not all of that difference is made back... [modular pilot] works at his local flying club for 3 years earning almost nothing, before moving (if he gets a lucky break) to the RHS of a turbo-prop. Meanwhile, [integrated pilot] has spent a few years earning a still un-impressive, yet far higher wage, before moving with his 1500hrs to a legacy carrier, or a nice pay scale within his low-cost airline.
For me, the debate is not about how to train - a NZ based integrated course will be receiving my application - but about whether it is all worth it at all!
From a purely financial stand point the integrated courses are also quite easy to make an argument for. From the date the blue ATPL license is issued [modular pilot] may have saved £50k versus [integrated pilot], but over the next 10 years I would suggest the vast majority, if not all of that difference is made back... [modular pilot] works at his local flying club for 3 years earning almost nothing, before moving (if he gets a lucky break) to the RHS of a turbo-prop. Meanwhile, [integrated pilot] has spent a few years earning a still un-impressive, yet far higher wage, before moving with his 1500hrs to a legacy carrier, or a nice pay scale within his low-cost airline.
For me, the debate is not about how to train - a NZ based integrated course will be receiving my application - but about whether it is all worth it at all!
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Except you're wrong, Studi, and Hezza is right.
Integrated is definitely not the only route into aviaiton, or the airlines, but you are placed ahead of the game... significantly. It's a fact that the airlines prefer an integrated student from a good school than a modular student. The better career prospects and the extra money earned are easily, easily worth it.
This forum is littered with horror stories of those who have payed for training and can't find a job. They now have to work somewhere else, struggling for ends meat, and struggling to keep licenses current. I personally would do anything to avoid that situation, even if it means paying £40,000 extra to be competitively placed when job-hunting. If you're actually good at what you do, the difference in cost will be made up through better earnings in just 2/3 years.
Look around at all the big boy jobs going with the LH carriers at the moment. Have a look at how employable you are with either a 737 or any Airbus type rating. So what if you have to slum it for a few years with Ryanair or Easy, soon you'll be one of the most employable people out there.
So no, it's not toying with people's dreams, in fact it's giving the lucky ones who can afford such a course that best possible chance of achieving them.
Integrated is definitely not the only route into aviaiton, or the airlines, but you are placed ahead of the game... significantly. It's a fact that the airlines prefer an integrated student from a good school than a modular student. The better career prospects and the extra money earned are easily, easily worth it.
This forum is littered with horror stories of those who have payed for training and can't find a job. They now have to work somewhere else, struggling for ends meat, and struggling to keep licenses current. I personally would do anything to avoid that situation, even if it means paying £40,000 extra to be competitively placed when job-hunting. If you're actually good at what you do, the difference in cost will be made up through better earnings in just 2/3 years.
Look around at all the big boy jobs going with the LH carriers at the moment. Have a look at how employable you are with either a 737 or any Airbus type rating. So what if you have to slum it for a few years with Ryanair or Easy, soon you'll be one of the most employable people out there.
So no, it's not toying with people's dreams, in fact it's giving the lucky ones who can afford such a course that best possible chance of achieving them.
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I never really post on pprune and I normally sit on the sidelines and observe, but I just wanted to clear a few things up! I can't remember exact figures as the FAQ's have been removed from the OAA website now.
Firstly, the contract that the pilot would be on at easyJet is actually very good.. I think the wage is about £50 per hour which increases when you build up experience. It works out at around £38,000 minimum but with standby pay and the flexible contract this can go up by quite a bit if you are flying the maximum amount of hours over the summer. If you pay the BBVA loan off at a rate of £10-12k a year you will still have a very healthy £25-30k left. I don't see how this can be classified as slave work.. perhaps I'm just naive.. yeah that salary is nothing in comparison to BA, Lufthansa, Emirates etc. but in terms of a salary it's still a decent amount of money and a young first officer would be able to live off of it.
There is also a winter hours guarantee which basically means you will be payed for 200 hours over the winter period if you do less than 200 hours. However, if you do more than 200 hours you will be payed however much you should be. This works out as about £3300 per month as it is split over two 3 month periods. 200*50/3=£3333. If you take away the loan repayment from that you are still left with plenty of money to spend on getting fat over Christmas and heating the house.
You'd also have to take into account that with this course, unless anything happens that shouldn't happen, you will start line training almost straight after graduating from OAA with your type rating. Well, this takes what 8 months? And for that period of time you will only recieve a basic training allowance I believe. But, you don't have to start loan repayments until 18 months after graduation which means for the first approx. 5-10 months of a full wage you can get some money under your belt to support yourself if there are any months where you encounter any problems.
Yes, the course itself is very expensive but I just don't see how anybody can say this is a form of slavery.
Firstly, the contract that the pilot would be on at easyJet is actually very good.. I think the wage is about £50 per hour which increases when you build up experience. It works out at around £38,000 minimum but with standby pay and the flexible contract this can go up by quite a bit if you are flying the maximum amount of hours over the summer. If you pay the BBVA loan off at a rate of £10-12k a year you will still have a very healthy £25-30k left. I don't see how this can be classified as slave work.. perhaps I'm just naive.. yeah that salary is nothing in comparison to BA, Lufthansa, Emirates etc. but in terms of a salary it's still a decent amount of money and a young first officer would be able to live off of it.
There is also a winter hours guarantee which basically means you will be payed for 200 hours over the winter period if you do less than 200 hours. However, if you do more than 200 hours you will be payed however much you should be. This works out as about £3300 per month as it is split over two 3 month periods. 200*50/3=£3333. If you take away the loan repayment from that you are still left with plenty of money to spend on getting fat over Christmas and heating the house.
You'd also have to take into account that with this course, unless anything happens that shouldn't happen, you will start line training almost straight after graduating from OAA with your type rating. Well, this takes what 8 months? And for that period of time you will only recieve a basic training allowance I believe. But, you don't have to start loan repayments until 18 months after graduation which means for the first approx. 5-10 months of a full wage you can get some money under your belt to support yourself if there are any months where you encounter any problems.
Yes, the course itself is very expensive but I just don't see how anybody can say this is a form of slavery.
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you really believe they will keep you on the roster, when they have a line of desperate pilots waiting to take your seat after their T/R?.
They will kick you out of the cockpit after 2-3 months and without a company' contract which guaranty you a minimum salary , you can do nothing.
Then good luck with your useless 700h total,useless 500h on A319 (not even A320/321).
Where do you go after? wizzair
be real, no airline will keep a seat for you for a living, when they can make money from it.
They will never pay pilots,a right hand seat means Euromoney coming from naive wanabes!
Soon captains will have to pay if they want keep their "job". Soon the will sell 3000h, with captain line training. It happens already in some airlines where captain pay to fly!
who's next with his fat cheque?
get the EJ carrot before someone get it!Carrots are orange by the way!
They will kick you out of the cockpit after 2-3 months and without a company' contract which guaranty you a minimum salary , you can do nothing.
Then good luck with your useless 700h total,useless 500h on A319 (not even A320/321).
Where do you go after? wizzair
be real, no airline will keep a seat for you for a living, when they can make money from it.
They will never pay pilots,a right hand seat means Euromoney coming from naive wanabes!
Soon captains will have to pay if they want keep their "job". Soon the will sell 3000h, with captain line training. It happens already in some airlines where captain pay to fly!
who's next with his fat cheque?
get the EJ carrot before someone get it!Carrots are orange by the way!
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Callum,
the one thing that you've forgotten is that nice Mr Taxman will come along and demand a nice big fat chunk of that. I don't know - as I have no interest - what the terms of the deal are and in previous "mentored" schemes the renumeration has included some form of tax deductable loan repayment, but this sounds like Loan repayment is yours alone.
Therefore, consider that you're going to lose £10k a year right away. IF you work the full hours they're suggesting you will. Now, you still feel you can pay off £10-£12k a year of loan and live comfortably on the £16k a year you have left? Now consider that you'll be doing well to find a place to live for less than £1k a month (once you add on bills etc) [alright, you might be able to rent "a room" for less - but i'd still guess £500 a month]
Now consider that you probably will want to live some way away from your base - just to "get away from work" at the end of the day, so you'll need to travel to work. Current fuel prices? Well, it cost me £85 to fill up the other day. Assume you live 10 miles from the airfield - 20 miles a day. 5 on 4 off, that's probably another £100 a month on fuel. Then you have to tax, insure and buy your car. let's say you get away with car running costs of £200 a month [you'd be doing well, even for a banger].... you've just spent £14400 a year just providing a roof for yourself and getting to work. You've got the princely sum of £1600 to "live" on - buy food, go out, have a social life, save for the future - for your retirement. Still think it's a good deal?
I'm not trying to decry it - the benefit of these type deals is that you have the job to go to - and that's by far the hardest part of the training. I would encourage ANYONE wanting to fly for a living to de-risk the exercise by going through one of these type of schemes if they can. Just do NOT think you're going to find it a breeze...Financially, if you fund the whole thing from loan, you're going to be in a huge amount of pain financially for the next ten years, easily.
Oh - and the figures are probably very optimistic - you're more likely to be spending nearer £3-400 on travel all in...not to mention your staff car park, uniform, etc etc.
the one thing that you've forgotten is that nice Mr Taxman will come along and demand a nice big fat chunk of that. I don't know - as I have no interest - what the terms of the deal are and in previous "mentored" schemes the renumeration has included some form of tax deductable loan repayment, but this sounds like Loan repayment is yours alone.
Therefore, consider that you're going to lose £10k a year right away. IF you work the full hours they're suggesting you will. Now, you still feel you can pay off £10-£12k a year of loan and live comfortably on the £16k a year you have left? Now consider that you'll be doing well to find a place to live for less than £1k a month (once you add on bills etc) [alright, you might be able to rent "a room" for less - but i'd still guess £500 a month]
Now consider that you probably will want to live some way away from your base - just to "get away from work" at the end of the day, so you'll need to travel to work. Current fuel prices? Well, it cost me £85 to fill up the other day. Assume you live 10 miles from the airfield - 20 miles a day. 5 on 4 off, that's probably another £100 a month on fuel. Then you have to tax, insure and buy your car. let's say you get away with car running costs of £200 a month [you'd be doing well, even for a banger].... you've just spent £14400 a year just providing a roof for yourself and getting to work. You've got the princely sum of £1600 to "live" on - buy food, go out, have a social life, save for the future - for your retirement. Still think it's a good deal?
I'm not trying to decry it - the benefit of these type deals is that you have the job to go to - and that's by far the hardest part of the training. I would encourage ANYONE wanting to fly for a living to de-risk the exercise by going through one of these type of schemes if they can. Just do NOT think you're going to find it a breeze...Financially, if you fund the whole thing from loan, you're going to be in a huge amount of pain financially for the next ten years, easily.
Oh - and the figures are probably very optimistic - you're more likely to be spending nearer £3-400 on travel all in...not to mention your staff car park, uniform, etc etc.
Last edited by clanger32; 28th Apr 2011 at 10:14.
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Sure, technically you might be able to live off this wage but lets not pretend it's a good deal compared to even a few years ago because it is not. Ultimately you will find that it is very difficult to live off 38k gross. A few years ago I found it difficult to live down south on 45k after the taxman, the student loans company, flying loan, repayments to parents, rent, bills and, increasingly these days, petrol. I almost invariably ended up using a credit card by the end of the month and not for anything luxurious romantic or extravagant! The big killer is the flying debt which soaked up nearly £1250/month (interest rates were, admittedly, higher back then).
Bear in mind I was a single guy with no other responsibilities. If you have kids its really not gonna cut the mustard.
Disclaimer: If you live like a hermit and never go out or do anything remotely enjoyable you will probably be fine.
Bear in mind I was a single guy with no other responsibilities. If you have kids its really not gonna cut the mustard.
Disclaimer: If you live like a hermit and never go out or do anything remotely enjoyable you will probably be fine.
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I received an email a little while ago.
Unfortunately I didn't get passed the initial screening.
Anyone know what they are looking for exactly in the initial screening?
I knew I couldn't afford it, nor do I completely believe in this scheme, but I just wanted to see how it goes.
Unfortunately I didn't get passed the initial screening.
Anyone know what they are looking for exactly in the initial screening?
I knew I couldn't afford it, nor do I completely believe in this scheme, but I just wanted to see how it goes.
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I received a reply and have been invited for the interview with them. The problem is I dont come from a family where money like that can be easily got, and I wouldnt gamble everything my family have on something like this, so I dont know if its worth going now??
I work hard and have saved hard but im not quite there yet, what should I do?
I work hard and have saved hard but im not quite there yet, what should I do?
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How on Earth are people who have never had a moments involvement with a professional pilots career somehow responsible for the current requirements of the industry? Of course they are not to blame. If you read what they have written, most are concerned that the debt burden, or the raising of surity would preclude an application. What exactly are they supposed to "be ashamed of themselves" for?
We have just taken on around 10 cadets from what you describe as a "scam" and we have taken on a similar number of experienced pilots. In both cases the contracts are (untypically) temporary and seasonal. The likelyhood of them (all) becoming permanent, depends on the market conditions prevailing at the end of the current season. As such, there is obviously a significant degree of risk and uncertainty. However that risk affects both pilot groups.
The experienced recruits are on a starting salary of around £4000 per month before tax or additional emoluments.
The cadets are on a starting salary of around £3150 per month before tax or additional emoluments.
After around 24 months both groups merge onto the same salary band, which by then is around £4300 per month before tax and additional emoluments.
The cadets with training loans can opt to have the company deduct the loan repayments from their salary (which is tax advantageous) to the tune of £1000 for 84 months (assuming that is the sum they have borrowed.) That then reduces their salary (as given above) by £1000 per month gross for 7 years (unless they elect to settle the loan earlier.)
So a new cadet first officer would expect to earn £2150 a month for the first year plus allowances less taxes, with their loan repayments repaid by the company. That is a net wage (after loan repayments, tax and National insurance) of around £1770 per month plus emoluments. Typically I would expect those emoluments to include a cash element of around £530 per month conservatively. Giving a take home wage of around £2300 per month in the first year. Meals at work provided, free uniforms, free car parking, insurance and health benefits.
It is not a fortune, but that is year 1. This is a first officer with a mere 250 hours or so, who can expect to amass around 700 hours a year on a modern jet transport. Their medicals, and renewals will be paid for, and there is a very good chance (based on past trends and current forecasts) that they will have their contracts made permanent in the future. However it has to be stressed past performance is no guarantee of future benefits. These pilots can then expect staged salary increases on an annual basis up to a figure of around £10,000 per month before tax and plus emoluments, over a 20 year career.
Now at the cadet entry level, managing on a first year take home wage of £530 (US$ 860) a week may not be a kings ransom, but it is most certainly liveable. We have been taking cadets on similar terms for over a decade and almost all have been kept on.
Obviously different companies have different terms and conditions that suit themselves and the marketplace. There is no guarantee whatsoever that somebody graduating from one of these schemes will find an employment placement in a short timescale. There is no guarantee that somebody will pass the course, (although there are some limited financial safeguards in the event of none voluntary termination I believe.) In recent years a lot of graduates have found themselves sitting in so called "Holding pools," which simply means there are no companies to place them with in the short term. All of these risks need to be considered very carefully by anybody borrowing money, or otherwise considering embarking on this route.
It is my considered opinion that anybody considering this route satisfies themselves that in the (quite likely) event of not obtaining any sort of airline placement at the conclusion, for some considerable time, has the resource, guarantors and ability to be able to repay the loans in any event.
It is most certainly a risk, but a "scam"? Of course it isn't.
We have just taken on around 10 cadets from what you describe as a "scam" and we have taken on a similar number of experienced pilots. In both cases the contracts are (untypically) temporary and seasonal. The likelyhood of them (all) becoming permanent, depends on the market conditions prevailing at the end of the current season. As such, there is obviously a significant degree of risk and uncertainty. However that risk affects both pilot groups.
The experienced recruits are on a starting salary of around £4000 per month before tax or additional emoluments.
The cadets are on a starting salary of around £3150 per month before tax or additional emoluments.
After around 24 months both groups merge onto the same salary band, which by then is around £4300 per month before tax and additional emoluments.
The cadets with training loans can opt to have the company deduct the loan repayments from their salary (which is tax advantageous) to the tune of £1000 for 84 months (assuming that is the sum they have borrowed.) That then reduces their salary (as given above) by £1000 per month gross for 7 years (unless they elect to settle the loan earlier.)
So a new cadet first officer would expect to earn £2150 a month for the first year plus allowances less taxes, with their loan repayments repaid by the company. That is a net wage (after loan repayments, tax and National insurance) of around £1770 per month plus emoluments. Typically I would expect those emoluments to include a cash element of around £530 per month conservatively. Giving a take home wage of around £2300 per month in the first year. Meals at work provided, free uniforms, free car parking, insurance and health benefits.
It is not a fortune, but that is year 1. This is a first officer with a mere 250 hours or so, who can expect to amass around 700 hours a year on a modern jet transport. Their medicals, and renewals will be paid for, and there is a very good chance (based on past trends and current forecasts) that they will have their contracts made permanent in the future. However it has to be stressed past performance is no guarantee of future benefits. These pilots can then expect staged salary increases on an annual basis up to a figure of around £10,000 per month before tax and plus emoluments, over a 20 year career.
Now at the cadet entry level, managing on a first year take home wage of £530 (US$ 860) a week may not be a kings ransom, but it is most certainly liveable. We have been taking cadets on similar terms for over a decade and almost all have been kept on.
Obviously different companies have different terms and conditions that suit themselves and the marketplace. There is no guarantee whatsoever that somebody graduating from one of these schemes will find an employment placement in a short timescale. There is no guarantee that somebody will pass the course, (although there are some limited financial safeguards in the event of none voluntary termination I believe.) In recent years a lot of graduates have found themselves sitting in so called "Holding pools," which simply means there are no companies to place them with in the short term. All of these risks need to be considered very carefully by anybody borrowing money, or otherwise considering embarking on this route.
It is my considered opinion that anybody considering this route satisfies themselves that in the (quite likely) event of not obtaining any sort of airline placement at the conclusion, for some considerable time, has the resource, guarantors and ability to be able to repay the loans in any event.
It is most certainly a risk, but a "scam"? Of course it isn't.
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Then that is your opinion, and clearly nothing must get in the way of that.
If you are "modular" you won't get a look in with most airline companies without 1500-2000 hours including 500 hours turbine time. I am not sure how easy that will be, or how much it might cost you, or how long it will take, but if it is cheaper, then yes go for it.
I am not sure that you really understand how the cadet system works, as your questions don't make a lot of sense? The holding pool is the training schools not the airline customers. The loan is the students and not the airline companies. If the employment terminates, the company makes no further payments in respect of the loan, as that is a condition of employment (obviously).
I can't really pick through the rest of the rant, but on the point about passing the same tests. Yes they do, but the structure of the course is also geared towards early airline entry. The teaching methodology, the operations facilities, the syllabus and the flight training is nearly all done in an airline format. It has to be in order to facilitate a successful transistion at this level of experience. The customer airlines usually have an input in the syllabus and monitor the training. Obviously there is a seamless progression when one training school provides this. Contrast this with "where is the cheapest place to do this bit and that bit?" and "where is the cheapest place to rent a cessna and make holes in the sky?" and some "dodgy looking chap in Florida sold me a type rating and ran off with my money," that seems to be a recurring theme on some of these forums.
Of course it isn't always that way, but also it isn't what these airline companies want in their limited cadet schemes. In all fairness if you want to crusade against some of the real "scam" artists, you would find fertile territory in some of these "modular" providers.
In any event, it doesn't change the facts.
If you are "modular" you won't get a look in with most airline companies without 1500-2000 hours including 500 hours turbine time. I am not sure how easy that will be, or how much it might cost you, or how long it will take, but if it is cheaper, then yes go for it.
I am not sure that you really understand how the cadet system works, as your questions don't make a lot of sense? The holding pool is the training schools not the airline customers. The loan is the students and not the airline companies. If the employment terminates, the company makes no further payments in respect of the loan, as that is a condition of employment (obviously).
I can't really pick through the rest of the rant, but on the point about passing the same tests. Yes they do, but the structure of the course is also geared towards early airline entry. The teaching methodology, the operations facilities, the syllabus and the flight training is nearly all done in an airline format. It has to be in order to facilitate a successful transistion at this level of experience. The customer airlines usually have an input in the syllabus and monitor the training. Obviously there is a seamless progression when one training school provides this. Contrast this with "where is the cheapest place to do this bit and that bit?" and "where is the cheapest place to rent a cessna and make holes in the sky?" and some "dodgy looking chap in Florida sold me a type rating and ran off with my money," that seems to be a recurring theme on some of these forums.
Of course it isn't always that way, but also it isn't what these airline companies want in their limited cadet schemes. In all fairness if you want to crusade against some of the real "scam" artists, you would find fertile territory in some of these "modular" providers.
In any event, it doesn't change the facts.
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justagigolo is right.
before embarking on such training, I would recommend you to see a lawyer, get your contract in hand, and see what you can do in case the company kicks you out.
I know many guys who have lost their money and faith with all these unscrupulous flight schemes which in my point of view (with 20 years experience) sounds more a ponzy scheme than a flying scheme.
If the market was so good, and there was a need of pilots, airlines would employ already trained pilots. These types of scheme show what they only want: your money, and nothing else....
please mod ,don't erase my post, if you dont like the truth, PM me!
before embarking on such training, I would recommend you to see a lawyer, get your contract in hand, and see what you can do in case the company kicks you out.
I know many guys who have lost their money and faith with all these unscrupulous flight schemes which in my point of view (with 20 years experience) sounds more a ponzy scheme than a flying scheme.
If the market was so good, and there was a need of pilots, airlines would employ already trained pilots. These types of scheme show what they only want: your money, and nothing else....
please mod ,don't erase my post, if you dont like the truth, PM me!
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 29th Apr 2011 at 05:21.
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Bealzebub is right that there is currently a trend to take pilots from a certain flight school background in many airlines. Nearly all european legacy carriers run their own cadet schemes as well for exactly the same reasons, many of them at least partly sponsored. If they have to take direct entry pilots they do a very thorough assessment, one of the steps in that is of course what kind of training the applicant has received which will of course play a pretty big part in the decision if they invite that applicant for further testing.
However this easyjet thing is, especially in terms of financial risk , not a good investment. Check out the other cadet programs in europe or worldwide, learn a second language if you haven't already (secondary and tertiary language knowledge is required in most of europe to get your A levels) and apply elsewhere.
However this easyjet thing is, especially in terms of financial risk , not a good investment. Check out the other cadet programs in europe or worldwide, learn a second language if you haven't already (secondary and tertiary language knowledge is required in most of europe to get your A levels) and apply elsewhere.
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38k GBP gross and over 100k GBP debts is a horrible situation, especially if you consider that you are basically bound to one employer and he only gives you a contract where he has all the rights and you have all the duties.
The risk/return tradeoff is the balance between the desire for the lowest possible risk and the highest possible return. This is demonstrated graphically in the chart below. A higher standard deviation means a higher risk and higher possible return.
A common misconception is that higher risk equals greater return. The risk/return tradeoff tells us that the higher risk gives us the possibility of higher returns. There are no guarantees. Just as risk means higher potential returns, it also means higher potential losses.
A common misconception is that higher risk equals greater return. The risk/return tradeoff tells us that the higher risk gives us the possibility of higher returns. There are no guarantees. Just as risk means higher potential returns, it also means higher potential losses.
Bealzebub is right, it's the only way in at the moment.
But...
At eJ we now have in the order of 500 flexi pilots who don't work for us but fly our aircraft. Here is the situation:
I would advise someone to take on the MPL if, and only if:
It's barely worth it on a full captain's package.
Be wise.
But...
At eJ we now have in the order of 500 flexi pilots who don't work for us but fly our aircraft. Here is the situation:
- Some are paid £1200 for 8 months, then nothing for 2.5 months, then hourly.
- Most have repayments of around £1000 pcm.
- If you have any form of asset or security, then the bank will up the repayment to £1300, so you default and they will get the asset. Many have declared bankruptcy, ruining their financial lives for decades to come.
- Those with no assets and unsecured loans are given smaller repayments, like £800. Still only £400 to live on.
- You may live in LGW but will be based in GLA, while your Glaswegian mate will be based in LGW. You can't swap, because nobody cares.
- Most are not given any leave, with some now having gone more than a year on random roster with not a single day of leave.
- Selection has not been rigorous, resulting in a variable quality of cadet. This has changed a little now, since our serious incident, so expect the real possibility of being chopped in base training or line training.
- The A320 series is a poor trainer. Some manage to get to grips with the basics of flight after a while, others don't.
- Don't expect to end up on a proper contract with a proper employer. The abuse does not end with the cadet schemes - you may be offered a job eventually, but it may be on different terms to the existing employees.
I would advise someone to take on the MPL if, and only if:
- You have £105,000 cash now that you are prepared to blow, with nothing to show for it at the end.
- You are happy to be abused for many years.
- You do not expect to earn what existing captains are earning now. Ever.
- You are certain you have the entire skill set to see you through to becoming a good pilot.
- You think that it's fair enough to work for significantly poorer terms and conditions than others around you.
- You accept that others will blame (rightly or wrongly) you for the deterioration in T&Cs in the industry.
- You are happy to never know what you are doing next month and never be able to get leave when you want.
It's barely worth it on a full captain's package.
Be wise.
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Hi all, this is my first post on PPRuNe 
I've made it through to the initial stage of the selection process at OAA, with 2 days at Oxford Airport.
Was just wondering what I should expect to face? (they've referred me to an FAQ page which doesn't seem to be online at the moment, so any info would be greatly appreciated!)
Many thanks in advance
I've made it through to the initial stage of the selection process at OAA, with 2 days at Oxford Airport.
Was just wondering what I should expect to face? (they've referred me to an FAQ page which doesn't seem to be online at the moment, so any info would be greatly appreciated!)
Many thanks in advance