Easyjet New Ab-initio scheme :)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 50°-60°N
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@stuckgear - no-one is suggesting OAA or Easyjet are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They are businesses. Is that really relevant anyway?
However, the fact that they are doing it is good news for wannabees (and others) however you look at it: tagging students at the start of training takes some of the training risk out for them, they probably have jobs to go to, getting in at the start of the upturn is the best possible time to be joining a new industry, the fact that schemes are making a comeback is a very positive sign of things changing for the better etc etc.
We all know it's hard times for anyone trying to join our industry at the moment but trying to claim this isn't good news doesn't really hold up as an argument, to my simple mind anyway.
However, the fact that they are doing it is good news for wannabees (and others) however you look at it: tagging students at the start of training takes some of the training risk out for them, they probably have jobs to go to, getting in at the start of the upturn is the best possible time to be joining a new industry, the fact that schemes are making a comeback is a very positive sign of things changing for the better etc etc.
We all know it's hard times for anyone trying to join our industry at the moment but trying to claim this isn't good news doesn't really hold up as an argument, to my simple mind anyway.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you can take the interpretation of it any way you want to that's your decision, you are big enough to make your own decisions it is your perogative.
There are specific and certain questions you need to consider the answer to and in hard reality situations, not with confirmation bias of what you want the answer to be.
It's also hard time for people in the industry.
Look, i appreciate and understand your desire to get into the industry, but instead of just lurking in the wannabes section, i really suggest you take a hard look at the R&N section and the T&E sections.
Some of us have been in this industry for a while and it's completely down to you if you want to listen to those whom have walked the same path as you, those whom are active in the industry at different levels. There are many of them on this site and many would be happy to share with you their experience and thoughts, to enable *YOU* to the make the best decsion for *you*.
You seriusly have to consider the downsides, that is ever more pertinent to aviation to any other industry. like i said not in a fluffy world of what the best case scenario is but the absolute worst. when you are aware of that you can then plan accordingly, rather than find yourself left high and dry.
Of course it's up to you to make your decisions, no one can do that for you, but you need to condsider the what if situation and if you don't want to listen and consider, then fine, that is your perogative also.
The truth is some of you will make a career in this industry and some of you will not but equally, i sincerely wish all you the best of luck.
There are specific and certain questions you need to consider the answer to and in hard reality situations, not with confirmation bias of what you want the answer to be.
We all know it's hard times for anyone trying to join our industry at the moment but trying to claim this isn't good news doesn't really hold up as an argument, to my simple mind anyway.
Look, i appreciate and understand your desire to get into the industry, but instead of just lurking in the wannabes section, i really suggest you take a hard look at the R&N section and the T&E sections.
Some of us have been in this industry for a while and it's completely down to you if you want to listen to those whom have walked the same path as you, those whom are active in the industry at different levels. There are many of them on this site and many would be happy to share with you their experience and thoughts, to enable *YOU* to the make the best decsion for *you*.
You seriusly have to consider the downsides, that is ever more pertinent to aviation to any other industry. like i said not in a fluffy world of what the best case scenario is but the absolute worst. when you are aware of that you can then plan accordingly, rather than find yourself left high and dry.
Of course it's up to you to make your decisions, no one can do that for you, but you need to condsider the what if situation and if you don't want to listen and consider, then fine, that is your perogative also.
The truth is some of you will make a career in this industry and some of you will not but equally, i sincerely wish all you the best of luck.
Last edited by stuckgear; 12th Mar 2011 at 10:58.
Its not really good news though is it.
All that's happening is that the second largest UK airline and by far the most active recruiter of pilots is restricting its recruitment to graduates of OAA or CTC. If you haven't got the cash for either then forget it. If you were hoping to move up from your turboprop forget it. If you were thinking of leaving the military for the airlines forget it. If you were thinking of getting some six months in with easyJet and then joining BA forget it (for two years at least).
For Joe Average Wannabe this is just another brick in the £80,000 wall.
WWW
All that's happening is that the second largest UK airline and by far the most active recruiter of pilots is restricting its recruitment to graduates of OAA or CTC. If you haven't got the cash for either then forget it. If you were hoping to move up from your turboprop forget it. If you were thinking of leaving the military for the airlines forget it. If you were thinking of getting some six months in with easyJet and then joining BA forget it (for two years at least).
For Joe Average Wannabe this is just another brick in the £80,000 wall.
WWW
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you chaps actually know anything about unfreezing an ATPL? You can't just unfreeze it when you reach 1500hrs, you have to unfreeze it during an LPC, if you reach 1500hrs (& the other criteria) even a day after your LPC then it'll be a further year before you can unfreeze it. Very, very few pilots unfreeze theirs at 1500hrs.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW
indeed.
and what are these guys going to do if they get dropped mid way, a change in contract terms, shoved in a hold pool for ever and a day.
A a new batch of people desperate to get started into a career in this industry ready to be sold down the river with a millstone around their necks, not unlike the last few batches, just in different packaging.
Deano,
the thing is, some of us in the industry are all to aware of the harsh realities and time and experience has left us with the understanding of the samll print.
look at it like this the suggestion that after 2 years in Easy with an MPL, you'll come out with a minted ATPL and a TR and the world is your lobster..
how about these guys getting paid by block flying hour, yet being on duty till they are dead on their feet, flying maybe 300 hours per year, its less than minimum wage and yet they'll be bought and owned for what 5 years till they can even think about unfreezing and earning big time with the legacy carriers.
again, it's a cheap deal to get a load of right seaters hog tied into a situation where they have no option but to accept whatever bone they maybe thrown.
You can try to give people the possible downsides but if they dont want to listen or consider alternatives, then it's much more than destroying their futures chasing an ever moving goal post.
indeed.
and what are these guys going to do if they get dropped mid way, a change in contract terms, shoved in a hold pool for ever and a day.
A a new batch of people desperate to get started into a career in this industry ready to be sold down the river with a millstone around their necks, not unlike the last few batches, just in different packaging.
Deano,
the thing is, some of us in the industry are all to aware of the harsh realities and time and experience has left us with the understanding of the samll print.
look at it like this the suggestion that after 2 years in Easy with an MPL, you'll come out with a minted ATPL and a TR and the world is your lobster..
how about these guys getting paid by block flying hour, yet being on duty till they are dead on their feet, flying maybe 300 hours per year, its less than minimum wage and yet they'll be bought and owned for what 5 years till they can even think about unfreezing and earning big time with the legacy carriers.
again, it's a cheap deal to get a load of right seaters hog tied into a situation where they have no option but to accept whatever bone they maybe thrown.
You can try to give people the possible downsides but if they dont want to listen or consider alternatives, then it's much more than destroying their futures chasing an ever moving goal post.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Until we hear any details this is all pure speculation. But yes, no one I hope is that naive to assume that a low-cost airline are about to give you a golden ticket. The details of the scheme will surely create a lot of debate on these forums. If it's a cr@p deal many will forgo it.
However, the current choices for wannabees are limited. Its either Flybe for a terrible salary and piss poor ROI, risk it at an integrated and hope BA take you on, or go for a tagged scheme such as this. The only other option as I can see it is to not bother with flying at all.
However, the current choices for wannabees are limited. Its either Flybe for a terrible salary and piss poor ROI, risk it at an integrated and hope BA take you on, or go for a tagged scheme such as this. The only other option as I can see it is to not bother with flying at all.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 50°-60°N
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stuckgear I haven't disputed any of what you are saying about the industry and how it works for many people. I actually think it's a good thing that such discussions between people 'already in' get held on the wannabe's forum so that those trying to get in can do so with their eyes open.
I have only been in the industry flying for a few years but when I did start out I had many years in a previous career to fall back on (as you wisely suggested earlier) in the event of anything drastic happening and am fully aware that I was very much 1 of the lucky ones to have got into a good job (which I love) when I did.
Since joining the industry I have seen numerous lay-offs of experienced pilots at competitors and have seen 'tagged' cadets from other companies be unceremoniously dropped when the company didn't need them (both during and after training). It is a risky and expensive move to join this industry and I fully agree people need to think long and hard about it first.
I do still however stand by my opinion that seeing new schemes opening up is a good thing for wannabes. That is only my opinion and having our views open to dispute (ie balance
) by others on this kind of forum is part of the intrinsic value of forums like pprune
www - I see where you're coming from and admit I hadn't considered it from the standpoints of those ex-mil or further down the civvy training chain (rather than wannabes who've not yet started).
Numbers of my old training classmates are still looking for flying work but some are starting to get picked up now and it sounds like rogerg is seeing the same where he is. I won't be so naive as to suggest all in their position will be picked up before the new schemes start providing pilots to the line but there is a good 2 years for these (& the ex-mil) people to be getting in ahead of those coming out of this new scheme for this airline. I do sincerely wish them all the best of luck.
Time for some rugby. BM
I have only been in the industry flying for a few years but when I did start out I had many years in a previous career to fall back on (as you wisely suggested earlier) in the event of anything drastic happening and am fully aware that I was very much 1 of the lucky ones to have got into a good job (which I love) when I did.
Since joining the industry I have seen numerous lay-offs of experienced pilots at competitors and have seen 'tagged' cadets from other companies be unceremoniously dropped when the company didn't need them (both during and after training). It is a risky and expensive move to join this industry and I fully agree people need to think long and hard about it first.
I do still however stand by my opinion that seeing new schemes opening up is a good thing for wannabes. That is only my opinion and having our views open to dispute (ie balance
) by others on this kind of forum is part of the intrinsic value of forums like pprunewww - I see where you're coming from and admit I hadn't considered it from the standpoints of those ex-mil or further down the civvy training chain (rather than wannabes who've not yet started).
Numbers of my old training classmates are still looking for flying work but some are starting to get picked up now and it sounds like rogerg is seeing the same where he is. I won't be so naive as to suggest all in their position will be picked up before the new schemes start providing pilots to the line but there is a good 2 years for these (& the ex-mil) people to be getting in ahead of those coming out of this new scheme for this airline. I do sincerely wish them all the best of luck.
Time for some rugby. BM
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stuckgear - you had a really well-written post but it seems to have vanished. Yes, everyone should fully research what the job is actually like and understand how much it has changed since the glory days.
As for timing, as the well respected WWW has pointed out, easyJet and RYR are nearing the end of their expansion - so if you want to get in you only have a few years left. BA are in need of
a lot pf pilots in the short-term due to new aircraft introductions, and Virgin are in a similar boat. Also, with RA65 people will start to retire again. From my research I feel as if there will be a short window of reasonable recruitment in the UK/West EU and after that its back to dead man's shoes. ...my 2 pence anyway.
As for timing, as the well respected WWW has pointed out, easyJet and RYR are nearing the end of their expansion - so if you want to get in you only have a few years left. BA are in need of
a lot pf pilots in the short-term due to new aircraft introductions, and Virgin are in a similar boat. Also, with RA65 people will start to retire again. From my research I feel as if there will be a short window of reasonable recruitment in the UK/West EU and after that its back to dead man's shoes. ...my 2 pence anyway.
Last edited by kingofkabul; 13th Mar 2011 at 11:42.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cesco
Of course you can do that, but you are just being a pedant. You would have to pay for it out of your own pocket. Why on earth would you want to do that when you would never be able to use the ATPL in it's full capacity (i.e. a command) for a few more years anyway? You're just nit picking for the hell of it.
Of course you can do that, but you are just being a pedant. You would have to pay for it out of your own pocket. Why on earth would you want to do that when you would never be able to use the ATPL in it's full capacity (i.e. a command) for a few more years anyway? You're just nit picking for the hell of it.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EZY lowering the experience levels even more
So once upon a time EZY did a deal with a certain flight school that promised them the cost of an accident would be much higher than what they were charging for their approved cadet system.
Those that joined the scheme were messed around in 2008/2009 to the effect that they were back in bar jobs for 6 months at a time and tied to a contract that refused them permission to join other airlines.
Now the same airline is going even lower cost by introducing the MPL route. The tie in is more severe than the old cadet scheme and the students get far less actual P1/command time on their actual flying courses (nil if EASA MPL min cost version used).
SIM time is wonderful for proceedural learning but it is not real! There is no real risk and pilot's know it. When it comes to Upset recoveries the false flight envelope data and wrong motion queing of most SIMs actually reinforce bad habits.
When some "approved school" cadets were questioned on the line by Capts regarding Mach buffet or which way the nose of a B737 goes at the stall, most did not know or gave false information.
Wonder if the CAA is still bothered by this or the lack of manual flying that Airbus and Boeing have stated concerns them?
Rumour has it another UK airline was told max 15% cadet entry due to the ever lowering experience levels on the flight deck. Now that would be something positive for all experience levels of aircrew!
If OAA really offer cancelled MPLs a CPL/IR free of charge then there must be a significant profit in the system to pay for all the solo and Multi Engine time!
Those that joined the scheme were messed around in 2008/2009 to the effect that they were back in bar jobs for 6 months at a time and tied to a contract that refused them permission to join other airlines.
Now the same airline is going even lower cost by introducing the MPL route. The tie in is more severe than the old cadet scheme and the students get far less actual P1/command time on their actual flying courses (nil if EASA MPL min cost version used).
SIM time is wonderful for proceedural learning but it is not real! There is no real risk and pilot's know it. When it comes to Upset recoveries the false flight envelope data and wrong motion queing of most SIMs actually reinforce bad habits.
When some "approved school" cadets were questioned on the line by Capts regarding Mach buffet or which way the nose of a B737 goes at the stall, most did not know or gave false information.
Wonder if the CAA is still bothered by this or the lack of manual flying that Airbus and Boeing have stated concerns them?
Rumour has it another UK airline was told max 15% cadet entry due to the ever lowering experience levels on the flight deck. Now that would be something positive for all experience levels of aircrew!
If OAA really offer cancelled MPLs a CPL/IR free of charge then there must be a significant profit in the system to pay for all the solo and Multi Engine time!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may also find a large number of Captains unwilling to give these guy's/gals handling time in all but the most benign conditions. This is all about cheap pilot's for easyJet and cash for OAA. Any benefit that the students may or may not get is of little actual concern to either other than for marketing purposes.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northampton
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The cost of an MPL and ATPL is not a lot different. The advantage of the MPL, from the airlines point of view, is that the pilot has been prepared for that airlines SOPs and the airline has got involved in the syllabus. The MPL student does some aerobatics as well which is not normaly included in the ATPL.
Surely not that small minded. Wouldn't happen in my day!
You may also find a large number of Captains unwilling to give these guy's/gals handling time in all but the most benign conditions.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an MCCI I would guess that you have quite an interest in this.
I think peoples concern is safety rather than being small minded and persecuting the cadets for the sake of it. That is much less likely to happen today than it was when you started out.
People will base decisions on their experience of the product and that of their colleagues. 125 hours is very little in anyone's book. They once coined a phrase in the RAF "fewer flying hours, better qualative training" hmmm Maybe the structure of the course will be better aligned to a specific need but in the end there is no substitute for experience. What is driving all this is the desire to produce a product at the minimum cost to the airline and the end result is very inexperienced pilots flying in the RHS of commercial jets. That places an increased burden on the Captains who will have to make safety based judgements on how they approach this. The Airbus is not set up as a dual control aircraft as their is no feedback of what the other chap is upto and taking control, in an Airbus, has its own issues as several major incidents have shown. As a result Captains will, and should, be cautious until they can get a feel for how competent individuals are.
The system could work if sufficient effort is put into ongoing supervision and training of the product over and above what now exists but the reality is that such systems are not in place. There has always been an element of mentoring and development in the role of a line Captain but it is not their primary role and they are not trained for it so the quality is variable.
I think peoples concern is safety rather than being small minded and persecuting the cadets for the sake of it. That is much less likely to happen today than it was when you started out.
People will base decisions on their experience of the product and that of their colleagues. 125 hours is very little in anyone's book. They once coined a phrase in the RAF "fewer flying hours, better qualative training" hmmm Maybe the structure of the course will be better aligned to a specific need but in the end there is no substitute for experience. What is driving all this is the desire to produce a product at the minimum cost to the airline and the end result is very inexperienced pilots flying in the RHS of commercial jets. That places an increased burden on the Captains who will have to make safety based judgements on how they approach this. The Airbus is not set up as a dual control aircraft as their is no feedback of what the other chap is upto and taking control, in an Airbus, has its own issues as several major incidents have shown. As a result Captains will, and should, be cautious until they can get a feel for how competent individuals are.
The system could work if sufficient effort is put into ongoing supervision and training of the product over and above what now exists but the reality is that such systems are not in place. There has always been an element of mentoring and development in the role of a line Captain but it is not their primary role and they are not trained for it so the quality is variable.
Last edited by Ashling; 13th Mar 2011 at 12:11.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northampton
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We could go on forever discussing the pros and cons of MPL but when a new fatpl joins the fleet he is no better or worse off than the MPL. The MPL will have the same no of type hrs as the fatpl. The MPL will be more experienced operating the class of AC, due extra sim time, and the Fatpl will be more experienced at operating a single engine light AC.
Most Captains do not ask the FO where they did their training. They just get on and judge the FOs capabilities as time goes by. FOs also have many limitations anyway until the first sim check has been completed.
MPL has gone ahead anyway so you might as well get used to it
Thats me finished on the MPL.
Most Captains do not ask the FO where they did their training. They just get on and judge the FOs capabilities as time goes by. FOs also have many limitations anyway until the first sim check has been completed.
MPL has gone ahead anyway so you might as well get used to it
Thats me finished on the MPL.
Last edited by rogerg; 13th Mar 2011 at 13:24.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure, as you say, that MPL has its merits v the FATPL CTC Wings etc. I'd even go as far as to say that in proportion it is healthy that airlines recruit some people from these streams. After all it is important to maintain a balance accross the airline and a day out with a new cadet every now and then is enjoyable. Just not every day ! That is what it is becoming in at least one major UK airline with associated problems caused by a high dilution rate. The problem may not be MPL in and of itself rather the extent to which it is used (alongside FATPL) in some airlines.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KoK,
thanks for the comment on the post i made and yes i did pull it. The simple reason for being that i don't want to get into a lengthy debate and dissertation on the vagaries of the current status, if its not going to be at least considered and garners the response that 'I'm a pessimist', 'great things are happening', 'recruitment for all' etc. etc. ad nauseum. I am not going to waste my efforts and energies.
There are a lot of people on this forum that have many, many years and tears in this industry and can tell it like it is and give the prospective entrants into this industry the information and realities they need to be forewarned to look after not only their interests, but the interests of the stability and future of this industry that they desire to be part of.
But there are also those that want to take 'hook, line and sinker' the marketing b/s that FTO's pump out. If that is the case, then there is frankly nada, that anyone can do or say that will influence the 'confirmation bias'.
I can myself, like others, plant the seeds for people to think through a situation for them to determine the potential upsides/downsides. To think for themselves and cut through the marketing b/s to consider the reality behind the glossy brochures.
I am not in the position of hand holding and spending time and effort assisting those who simply cannot think beyond and to consider the downsides.
As I said in a previous post on the subject there are right now, bucket loads of pilots out there gagging to to get a right seat position with anyone. These people have time on type, in excess of thousands of hours, prepared to pay for a TR, relocate to BFE just to stay in the game.
So, why would EZ, look at future recruitment through the MPL program when there is a dearth of pilots available ?
And I know this question will illicit the usual responses complicit with the spoon fed marketing. That is why I pulled the post, useful as it may have been.
stay safe and good luck.
thanks for the comment on the post i made and yes i did pull it. The simple reason for being that i don't want to get into a lengthy debate and dissertation on the vagaries of the current status, if its not going to be at least considered and garners the response that 'I'm a pessimist', 'great things are happening', 'recruitment for all' etc. etc. ad nauseum. I am not going to waste my efforts and energies.
There are a lot of people on this forum that have many, many years and tears in this industry and can tell it like it is and give the prospective entrants into this industry the information and realities they need to be forewarned to look after not only their interests, but the interests of the stability and future of this industry that they desire to be part of.
But there are also those that want to take 'hook, line and sinker' the marketing b/s that FTO's pump out. If that is the case, then there is frankly nada, that anyone can do or say that will influence the 'confirmation bias'.
I can myself, like others, plant the seeds for people to think through a situation for them to determine the potential upsides/downsides. To think for themselves and cut through the marketing b/s to consider the reality behind the glossy brochures.
I am not in the position of hand holding and spending time and effort assisting those who simply cannot think beyond and to consider the downsides.
As I said in a previous post on the subject there are right now, bucket loads of pilots out there gagging to to get a right seat position with anyone. These people have time on type, in excess of thousands of hours, prepared to pay for a TR, relocate to BFE just to stay in the game.
So, why would EZ, look at future recruitment through the MPL program when there is a dearth of pilots available ?
And I know this question will illicit the usual responses complicit with the spoon fed marketing. That is why I pulled the post, useful as it may have been.
stay safe and good luck.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Heathrow
Age: 49
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is really good news - the fact that any airline is starting to take FlyBe's lead in sponsored schemes must be a sign that the industry is picking up and is expected to continue to do so.
All we need now is for BA to do the same and the flood-gates will really open.
All we need now is for BA to do the same and the flood-gates will really open.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Heathrow
Age: 49
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When some "approved school" cadets were questioned on the line by Capts regarding Mach buffet or which way the nose of a B737 goes at the stall, most did not know or gave false information.
Airlines are getting wise to it though and placing far more emphasis on aspects such as stability in technical interviews, to separate the knowledgeable from the memory gamers.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Belfast
Age: 29
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys, after reading through this thread i am really interested! I am 16, doing my A-levels and hoping to train to be a pilot in a year or two. However controversial, I want to train at OAA mainly because of the job opportunities at the end of it. Ideally i would like ot be employed for a large company like Easyjet to start off with. Does anyone have any advice or is this type or sponsorship even suitable for someone like me? Thanks