Least Foolish of a Foolish Decision
Educated Hillbilly
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Least Foolish of a Foolish Decision
Right I know I am going to get flamed by some for this; but I want to keep this a rational discussion with reasoned arguments only.
Now back in mid 2008, I was laid off from my turboprop job, which I gained as a result contacts made through a season of instructing; so I fully appreciate that jobs can be gained through networking and slugging it out in GA.
However after going back to contracting in my previous field and gaining the other commitments of life, there is no way I could afford to instruct on a full time basis again; thought about doing the MEI and IR restriction removal upgrades, but that would still cost 10K, plus I dont think I would have the enthusiasm to be a ME/IR instructor (as with all instructing to do the job well is extremely hard work and difficult).
Although I did revalidate my FI rating, I have yet to gain any part time instructors work, so without any current flying or involvement in the industry I wouldn't expect my CV to get noticed now.
Even if I was lucky enought to be offered another turboprop job, I doubt I would accept, due to the fact that most have such low salaries, with long and high bond lengths. In other words, I would much rather self fund a common type, than be bonded on a low salary on a rare type (as per my previous tp job).
Nowin six months I will be in a position to self fund a rating, so I was giving consideration to the ATR rating; the reason is, it is the most common turboprop in the world, and everyone I have met that has done this rating in the past has sooner or later gained employment. Also as I have a small amount of heavy tp time, it does compliment my previous experience.
The drawback is of course been a turboprop the starting salaries can be quite low (also there are some ATR operators that pay well), alot of the jobs are likely to be in Africa or Asia rather than Europe. But if you have paid for the rating there is still the freedom to move on if something better comes up, or if the finances get strained the option to go back to my previous contract work.
However, if I waited 12months I could probably afford to do a 737 rating with 300 hours on type, or even waited 18 months 737 rating with 500 on type. Now while I agree there is a moral issue with paying to fly, when you consider the figures it makes economic sense, the pay cut I would take to join a tp operator (like Eastern) in the space of twelve months is the same price as a 737 rating + line training package.
While I don't know the employment figures for the 300 hours schemes, some recent research has shown that one of the 500 hour schemes is currently gaining close to a 100% employment rate.
Now in the last five years I have scuppered my flying career due to making the wrong decision on three occasions, I can't complain as I have had my fair share of opportunities. So now I have a fourth decision to make it would be useful to get some rational input.
So in summary
ATR rating in six month time or wait 12 months and do a 737 rating with a line training package.
Now back in mid 2008, I was laid off from my turboprop job, which I gained as a result contacts made through a season of instructing; so I fully appreciate that jobs can be gained through networking and slugging it out in GA.
However after going back to contracting in my previous field and gaining the other commitments of life, there is no way I could afford to instruct on a full time basis again; thought about doing the MEI and IR restriction removal upgrades, but that would still cost 10K, plus I dont think I would have the enthusiasm to be a ME/IR instructor (as with all instructing to do the job well is extremely hard work and difficult).
Although I did revalidate my FI rating, I have yet to gain any part time instructors work, so without any current flying or involvement in the industry I wouldn't expect my CV to get noticed now.
Even if I was lucky enought to be offered another turboprop job, I doubt I would accept, due to the fact that most have such low salaries, with long and high bond lengths. In other words, I would much rather self fund a common type, than be bonded on a low salary on a rare type (as per my previous tp job).
Nowin six months I will be in a position to self fund a rating, so I was giving consideration to the ATR rating; the reason is, it is the most common turboprop in the world, and everyone I have met that has done this rating in the past has sooner or later gained employment. Also as I have a small amount of heavy tp time, it does compliment my previous experience.
The drawback is of course been a turboprop the starting salaries can be quite low (also there are some ATR operators that pay well), alot of the jobs are likely to be in Africa or Asia rather than Europe. But if you have paid for the rating there is still the freedom to move on if something better comes up, or if the finances get strained the option to go back to my previous contract work.
However, if I waited 12months I could probably afford to do a 737 rating with 300 hours on type, or even waited 18 months 737 rating with 500 on type. Now while I agree there is a moral issue with paying to fly, when you consider the figures it makes economic sense, the pay cut I would take to join a tp operator (like Eastern) in the space of twelve months is the same price as a 737 rating + line training package.
While I don't know the employment figures for the 300 hours schemes, some recent research has shown that one of the 500 hour schemes is currently gaining close to a 100% employment rate.
Now in the last five years I have scuppered my flying career due to making the wrong decision on three occasions, I can't complain as I have had my fair share of opportunities. So now I have a fourth decision to make it would be useful to get some rational input.
So in summary
ATR rating in six month time or wait 12 months and do a 737 rating with a line training package.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 11th Jan 2011 at 21:55.
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Nobody really values turboprop time any more it seems, so even if you get the ATR job I think you will still find it hard to move on to more profitable flying in the future or for a company with decent lifestyle.
If you can afford to wait then you also give yourself time to see if any other opportunities arise in the meantime.
If you can afford to wait then you also give yourself time to see if any other opportunities arise in the meantime.
Educated Hillbilly
Thread Starter
Reverse flight, traditionally in the UK, it was a case of instruct, turboprop then move to jet; these days there is an increasing trend of pay to fly schemes on the 737 and A320s, which means there are less opportunities to move from a turboprop to a jet with a company funding the rating.
Even though Jet 2 took on some turboprop pilots they still had to fork out 20k for the type rating.
Just to add to my post the ATR rating cost just under 18000 Euros.
The 737 rating +300 line hours works out at about Ł33000, but adding in four to six months of living expenses a good 8 to 12K, so total, so looking at over 40-45k pounds of expenditure.
Even though Jet 2 took on some turboprop pilots they still had to fork out 20k for the type rating.
Just to add to my post the ATR rating cost just under 18000 Euros.
The 737 rating +300 line hours works out at about Ł33000, but adding in four to six months of living expenses a good 8 to 12K, so total, so looking at over 40-45k pounds of expenditure.
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Sounds like you have found yourself in 'the golden handcuffs'; ie. got a well paying job and you rightly find it unthinkable to make your family suffer while you attempt to pursue a dream? Imagine if you 
all this money for nothing or worse, half the pay you earn now working in Nigeria unable to ever get home to see your kids.
I'm guesssing that your turbo prop time is very old and thus of limited value in the present market? SD360 or similar?
Basically; it doesn't work does it?! But I expect that the thought of giving up on flying doesn't work either.
all this money for nothing or worse, half the pay you earn now working in Nigeria unable to ever get home to see your kids. I'm guesssing that your turbo prop time is very old and thus of limited value in the present market? SD360 or similar?
Basically; it doesn't work does it?! But I expect that the thought of giving up on flying doesn't work either.
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as nauseous as it makes me feel saying these next words...
would applying for Ryanair not be an option for you? I don't know if their recruitment policy of 'get 'em young, get their blood and/or money' would help you out not being a cadet but it may be worth a punt may it not? Not a perfect job but all the guys I know there earn good money and have a predictable roster, even if they do have to spend some of their time away from home...
sorry for mentioning the 'R' word, I am currently filling a bowl of soapy water for my mouth...even though I typed it rather that saying it, I feel a little self harm is warranted anyway
good luck anyway, never nice to hear a story like yours - all the best for whatever decision you take!
would applying for Ryanair not be an option for you? I don't know if their recruitment policy of 'get 'em young, get their blood and/or money' would help you out not being a cadet but it may be worth a punt may it not? Not a perfect job but all the guys I know there earn good money and have a predictable roster, even if they do have to spend some of their time away from home...
sorry for mentioning the 'R' word, I am currently filling a bowl of soapy water for my mouth...even though I typed it rather that saying it, I feel a little self harm is warranted anyway
good luck anyway, never nice to hear a story like yours - all the best for whatever decision you take!
Educated Hillbilly
Thread Starter
Big Number, you are so close to the truth, its as though you read my mind. Not SD360 but certainly that generation of aircraft.
170to5, agree with you Ryanair is as a good a way of any on the SSTR front. The latest requirements on the CAE website asks for a training report from your flight school, it was more than five years since my intial CPL/IR and the school I trained at no longer exists, so while I may meet the first time passes requirement, getting the training report would be a problem. This indeed suggests Zero to Hero is correct they are only interested those who are recently out of flight school.
170to5, make no apologies for mentioning Ryanair, my colleagues who joined Ryanair when I became an Instructor are now all due commands or applying to Emirates; the brutal truth is pay to fly schemes are always a better way to advance the career than instructing.
170to5, agree with you Ryanair is as a good a way of any on the SSTR front. The latest requirements on the CAE website asks for a training report from your flight school, it was more than five years since my intial CPL/IR and the school I trained at no longer exists, so while I may meet the first time passes requirement, getting the training report would be a problem. This indeed suggests Zero to Hero is correct they are only interested those who are recently out of flight school.
170to5, make no apologies for mentioning Ryanair, my colleagues who joined Ryanair when I became an Instructor are now all due commands or applying to Emirates; the brutal truth is pay to fly schemes are always a better way to advance the career than instructing.
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portsharbourflyer
I wouldn't let the training report requirement put you off an FR application especially considering that you have some mates there. I would say that you should probably contact them to try to circumvent some of the initial application process. Ryanair always used to have many side doors to get an interview and I doubt that has changed much.
I wouldn't let the training report requirement put you off an FR application especially considering that you have some mates there. I would say that you should probably contact them to try to circumvent some of the initial application process. Ryanair always used to have many side doors to get an interview and I doubt that has changed much.
Educated Hillbilly
Thread Starter
Mercenary Pilot,
Well yes, it would certainy be worth exploring all avenues, in 9 months time (when I should be in a position to financially consider this), Ryanair may well have changed the criteria back to the previous requirements, which previously was pass the sim check and interview and front up the cash. Its only very recently the criteria has changed to consider performance in initial training. I will make the relevant enquiries anyway.
Zonda, why do you think I am now considering a pay to fly scheme. That said on the subject of Easyjet, there are also the A320 + 150 hours Line training schemes to consider.
Three years back if you asked me if I would consider a pay to fly scheme I would have probably said no way, ever. But when I consider that to become a full time instructor I took a 30K pay cut; then had I stayed in previous job then in the space of 12 months, I would have raised the cash for a pay to fly scheme. So in hindsight in my position it was pure madness to give up a well paid job to instruct full time.
Well yes, it would certainy be worth exploring all avenues, in 9 months time (when I should be in a position to financially consider this), Ryanair may well have changed the criteria back to the previous requirements, which previously was pass the sim check and interview and front up the cash. Its only very recently the criteria has changed to consider performance in initial training. I will make the relevant enquiries anyway.
Zonda, why do you think I am now considering a pay to fly scheme. That said on the subject of Easyjet, there are also the A320 + 150 hours Line training schemes to consider.
Three years back if you asked me if I would consider a pay to fly scheme I would have probably said no way, ever. But when I consider that to become a full time instructor I took a 30K pay cut; then had I stayed in previous job then in the space of 12 months, I would have raised the cash for a pay to fly scheme. So in hindsight in my position it was pure madness to give up a well paid job to instruct full time.
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Well atleast there is somenone who accepts turboprop time....
Second Officers - Fast Track
Minimum of 1,500 hours in Modern Multi Pilot Turbo-Prop greater than 12,000kg MTOW
Valid ICAO ATPL or Frozen ATPL
Valid Class 1 Medical.
ICAO English Proficiency Minimum level 4.
Age below 35 years.
Flight Deck Crew Requirements | Qatar Airways
Second Officers - Fast Track
Minimum of 1,500 hours in Modern Multi Pilot Turbo-Prop greater than 12,000kg MTOW
Valid ICAO ATPL or Frozen ATPL
Valid Class 1 Medical.
ICAO English Proficiency Minimum level 4.
Age below 35 years.
Flight Deck Crew Requirements | Qatar Airways
