Who has decided to give up recently, and how much money have you wasted?
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Yes because Ryanair dumps all its FO's once they've finished line training............................ Strangely enough ive only ever seen one post on pprune from an FR FO(reluctant737) whos actually not liking things. There must be around 1000 FO's in the company now as well.
Maybe the reason why they work them hard during line training is to make the most of the LTC's who are going to be on very large contracts indeed(some are only paid a daily LTC rate when they are actually training, not 100% sure on that?), so it would make sense to put them on 4 sector days for the 5 days they are on no?
Maybe because they can actually be of more use when they are line checked and be moved to a nontraining base? So its makes sense to get them through quickly.
This forum used to be a great place for advice and i certainly learnt a lot about the airline industry from here, now its just turned into a massive slagging match devoid of any useful information whatsoever; shame.
But hey what do i know.
Maybe the reason why they work them hard during line training is to make the most of the LTC's who are going to be on very large contracts indeed(some are only paid a daily LTC rate when they are actually training, not 100% sure on that?), so it would make sense to put them on 4 sector days for the 5 days they are on no?
Maybe because they can actually be of more use when they are line checked and be moved to a nontraining base? So its makes sense to get them through quickly.
This forum used to be a great place for advice and i certainly learnt a lot about the airline industry from here, now its just turned into a massive slagging match devoid of any useful information whatsoever; shame.
But hey what do i know.
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The point that very few people seem to address is that airlines have never sought 250 hour pilots to sit in the right hand seat. Yes there have always been a very small number of restricted schemes (such as BA/Hamble) that offered a graduate level sponsored entry to a few lucky receipients. The airline provided the cost of training these candidates through an 18-24 month ab-initio training course that led on to a lengthy tailored and mentored programme with the sponsoring airline itself. This then eventually merged into that airlines regular career path. Airlines have always broadly represented the ultimate in career progression for commercial pilots. It doesn't matter if those commercial pilots came from ex-military backgrounds, or other commercial operations, the airlines could pick and choose the best of their source material, and the salaries (and terms and conditions) generally represented both the fact, and the level of experience sought in the candidate.
In recent years the advent of certain low cost carriers brought with it a determination to strip out each and every perception of unnecessary cost. One of the major costs was clearly the operating crew. If they could have stripped out the First Officers seat and simply thrown it in a skip, some of them would have done so in the blink of an eye. Those that didn't would have been forced to start doing so a year or two later! However they couldn't do that, so they were forced to look at the way the whole industry was structured. The regulator simply required that a First Officer was appropriately licenced, type rated, and held a valid first class medical certificate. They did have some serious qualms about inexperienced Captains flying with inexperienced First officers, but that aside there was no other obstacle.
At first this meant that the Right hand seat was open not only to the previous levels of experience required, but to a whole new market of "no/low relevant houred experienced pilots" that were being churned out by the plethora of pilot training "puppy farms" that took advantage of these new opportunities to expand their businesses. So successful were these programmes in supplying low houred First officers to partner airlines that the ex-military and ex-commercial candidates were largely squeezed out of the recuitment drive, unless they themselves were prepared to lower their own salary expectations to the levels now demanded by this newfound glut of supply. Thus the Airline First Officers job, was no longer the same airline job of old, but now more of an industry entry level position. The salaries, terms and conditions started (slowly at first) to turn South, then the decline rapidly accelerated.
Airlines then came under pressure from the continuing lust to drive down costs, coupled with increased competition in the marketplace. Add to this a downturn in the economic cycle, and a self created expectation in the public mind that they could fly anywhere for a headline price of a penny! Indeed some of those 150-200 seats behind the flightdeck door were indeed being sold for a penny. Those that weren't had to fight tooth and nail, along with sales of Kit Kats and other anciliary items, to provide the margins between profit and loss. However a few airlines quickly cottoned on to the fact that there was one seat on board that was a potential goldmine?
You've got it! The one forward right of the flightdeck door. People were tripping over themselves to pay six figure sums for the opportunity to then pay £30,000 more to sit here. Better still they were, in some cases, prepared to pay for line training and all the other costs that an airline had previously associated with its own input costs. Indeed each and every risk fell to the candidate. Those that stayed the course would accept the huge reductions in salaries and terms and conditions. Those that didn't stay the course, left to be replaced by another total risk encumbered candidate. Indeed as long as there wasn't a public relations disaster this was even better than throwing the seat in a skip. Far better than those airlines could ever have originally imagined.
So, candidates were seduced by an expectation of a job with terms and conditions that had existed for experienced career climbers a few years earlier. They were then sold the promise on the back of cheap credit, selection interviews, uniforms and all the trappings of gloss and glamour for a job that (if it actually materialized,) would of course reflect the new reality that they were in fact a big market of bob-a-job pilots with barely 4 times the experience level of a PPL! Many of the early candidates did indeed fare well out of these programmes, but like all bubbles, they eventually burst. This one started to show signs of significant distortion just as a major global financial crisis came along to accelerate the whole process.
Previously there was a career ladder where the job of airline pilot was reached via the top rungs. This process has lowered the job of airline pilot to the bottom rungs. As a result (and economy notwithstanding,) many of these First Officer positions are basic entry level and the terms and conditions will continue to reflect that fact for as long as it continues to exist. The airline managements hope this will be for a long long time. Indeed some of them have already started to look at the other seat for all the opportunities that affords. I am afraid that anybody who believes this is all going to suddenly reverse itself in a year or two, is simply not looking at what is actually happening. What has been happening gradually for some considerable time, and what is likely to happen in the short to medium term future.
If regulation is forced to raise the terms and conditions back to the top rungs of this career ladder, there is precious little interest in many of you 250-1500 hour pilots. If that fails to happen, you can expect the value of the job to reflect the quantity and experience level of applicants, and that has a considerable downside.
In recent years the advent of certain low cost carriers brought with it a determination to strip out each and every perception of unnecessary cost. One of the major costs was clearly the operating crew. If they could have stripped out the First Officers seat and simply thrown it in a skip, some of them would have done so in the blink of an eye. Those that didn't would have been forced to start doing so a year or two later! However they couldn't do that, so they were forced to look at the way the whole industry was structured. The regulator simply required that a First Officer was appropriately licenced, type rated, and held a valid first class medical certificate. They did have some serious qualms about inexperienced Captains flying with inexperienced First officers, but that aside there was no other obstacle.
At first this meant that the Right hand seat was open not only to the previous levels of experience required, but to a whole new market of "no/low relevant houred experienced pilots" that were being churned out by the plethora of pilot training "puppy farms" that took advantage of these new opportunities to expand their businesses. So successful were these programmes in supplying low houred First officers to partner airlines that the ex-military and ex-commercial candidates were largely squeezed out of the recuitment drive, unless they themselves were prepared to lower their own salary expectations to the levels now demanded by this newfound glut of supply. Thus the Airline First Officers job, was no longer the same airline job of old, but now more of an industry entry level position. The salaries, terms and conditions started (slowly at first) to turn South, then the decline rapidly accelerated.
Airlines then came under pressure from the continuing lust to drive down costs, coupled with increased competition in the marketplace. Add to this a downturn in the economic cycle, and a self created expectation in the public mind that they could fly anywhere for a headline price of a penny! Indeed some of those 150-200 seats behind the flightdeck door were indeed being sold for a penny. Those that weren't had to fight tooth and nail, along with sales of Kit Kats and other anciliary items, to provide the margins between profit and loss. However a few airlines quickly cottoned on to the fact that there was one seat on board that was a potential goldmine?
You've got it! The one forward right of the flightdeck door. People were tripping over themselves to pay six figure sums for the opportunity to then pay £30,000 more to sit here. Better still they were, in some cases, prepared to pay for line training and all the other costs that an airline had previously associated with its own input costs. Indeed each and every risk fell to the candidate. Those that stayed the course would accept the huge reductions in salaries and terms and conditions. Those that didn't stay the course, left to be replaced by another total risk encumbered candidate. Indeed as long as there wasn't a public relations disaster this was even better than throwing the seat in a skip. Far better than those airlines could ever have originally imagined.
So, candidates were seduced by an expectation of a job with terms and conditions that had existed for experienced career climbers a few years earlier. They were then sold the promise on the back of cheap credit, selection interviews, uniforms and all the trappings of gloss and glamour for a job that (if it actually materialized,) would of course reflect the new reality that they were in fact a big market of bob-a-job pilots with barely 4 times the experience level of a PPL! Many of the early candidates did indeed fare well out of these programmes, but like all bubbles, they eventually burst. This one started to show signs of significant distortion just as a major global financial crisis came along to accelerate the whole process.
Previously there was a career ladder where the job of airline pilot was reached via the top rungs. This process has lowered the job of airline pilot to the bottom rungs. As a result (and economy notwithstanding,) many of these First Officer positions are basic entry level and the terms and conditions will continue to reflect that fact for as long as it continues to exist. The airline managements hope this will be for a long long time. Indeed some of them have already started to look at the other seat for all the opportunities that affords. I am afraid that anybody who believes this is all going to suddenly reverse itself in a year or two, is simply not looking at what is actually happening. What has been happening gradually for some considerable time, and what is likely to happen in the short to medium term future.
If regulation is forced to raise the terms and conditions back to the top rungs of this career ladder, there is precious little interest in many of you 250-1500 hour pilots. If that fails to happen, you can expect the value of the job to reflect the quantity and experience level of applicants, and that has a considerable downside.
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I hesitated before posting because this thread seems to have crept somewhat away from the question that was originally asked on this wanabees forum.
However, I agree with much of what's been said and think it's a really important discussion. So, a thought, perhaps contrary to some of the opinions give above:
- granted bank lending is down (and likely to stay down, particulary unsecured) when the pilot employment market turns up again (whenever that is, but it will) I think there will end up being a shortage of quality people who can afford to train via debt. At that point I think tagged schemes will reappear (it's notable they haven't actually fully disappeared yet) and the traditional modular route will become viable again. I'd hazard a guess that this is may be 5 years away though.
I'm well aware this opinion may be a minority one at the moment
but though it worth presenting an alternative view. BM
However, I agree with much of what's been said and think it's a really important discussion. So, a thought, perhaps contrary to some of the opinions give above:
- granted bank lending is down (and likely to stay down, particulary unsecured) when the pilot employment market turns up again (whenever that is, but it will) I think there will end up being a shortage of quality people who can afford to train via debt. At that point I think tagged schemes will reappear (it's notable they haven't actually fully disappeared yet) and the traditional modular route will become viable again. I'd hazard a guess that this is may be 5 years away though.
I'm well aware this opinion may be a minority one at the moment
but though it worth presenting an alternative view. BM
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Strangely enough ive only ever seen one post on pprune from an FR FO(reluctant737) whos actually not liking things. There must be around 1000 FO's in the company now as well.
All of that aside it is probably, at this stage, because no one has really felt the effects of what we are calling. It will happen. Count on it. They'll chip 15 -30 hours a year from you over the next 10 years. All of a sudden earning 100 Euros an hour for 3-400 hours a year doesn't pay the bills. And if you don't think it can happen you are deluded. You'll be flying the same number of hours a year as people in the cargo industry. It's perfectly legal and there is nothing you can do about it. Ryanair will hope that you make their life easier and leave before it becomes too immoral. With new people continually coming into the company they can keep the block hour rate as low as possible and keep on rectifying the Ts and Cs in their favour.
Enjoy it while it lasts, because it wont last and it will get very much worse at Ryanair.
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Beak,
I think you are probably right. ( Hence the fact that there are no guaranteed minimum hours in the BRK contract! )
Their flawed logic is that, for the time being, the BRK punters continue to build hours and experience, wear gold bars, and make Mummy proud.
With hours and experience they are better placed than a guy struggling to re-new his MEP rating.
BN
I think you are probably right. ( Hence the fact that there are no guaranteed minimum hours in the BRK contract! )
Their flawed logic is that, for the time being, the BRK punters continue to build hours and experience, wear gold bars, and make Mummy proud.
With hours and experience they are better placed than a guy struggling to re-new his MEP rating.
BN
Just because you have a big cheque book doesnt mean you will be given the opportunity to fly a jet.
It might not be BECAUSE you have a big cheque book that you get the opportunity to fly a jet at the moment but its near impossible WITHOUT one.
WWW
ps Bealzebub - thanks for that post, a very accurate summary
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Its a fact of life these days that the type rating has to be payed for. The airline wont pay for it.
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Always horrible to see the way the pilot community rounds on itself when the chips are down. Same record, different tune to post 9/11.
All we are seeing here is the forces of supply and demand at work, yet we all seek to blame each other for the situation we now face. I have seen one poster on this thread berate the 200 hour wannabe on another thread for accepting reduced t&c, whilst saying that he as an old hand is "forced" to accept lower t&c if he is to get back into paid employment. The argument appears to be, I'll do what I need to to get paid employment, but damn you if you do the same.
The reason we can't have the 1500 hour minimum for pay-to-fly here in the UK, is where will wannabes get these 1500 hours from? The USA has a well developed GA market, which we do not. The rapid expansion of the last few years as a result of the rise of the low cost sector couldn't have been fuelled by ex GA pilots. There simply weren't enough.
What will be interesting though, is now that the low cost market is now at saturation in the UK, when the jobs start coming again it will not include large scale growth, just attrition and more tradition levels of annual expansion. Where will airlines get their pilots from then? Will 200 hour wannabes still be recruited? The accepted thought at the moment is that they will try to make money from the RHS by pay to fly schemes. However, my airline is recruiting at the moment and is famed for its cost cutting, so it could be assumed that they would go down this route, but it hasn't happened. They are not recruiting low hours wannabes, even though that would help balance out the relatively senior FO demographic.
Admittedly with the current situation, all are type rated, but the interesting point remains, experienced drivers are being sought rather than any attempt to "make money" from a pay-to-fly scheme, despite the very strong cost cutting culture of the management.
Interesting times ahead.
All we are seeing here is the forces of supply and demand at work, yet we all seek to blame each other for the situation we now face. I have seen one poster on this thread berate the 200 hour wannabe on another thread for accepting reduced t&c, whilst saying that he as an old hand is "forced" to accept lower t&c if he is to get back into paid employment. The argument appears to be, I'll do what I need to to get paid employment, but damn you if you do the same.
The reason we can't have the 1500 hour minimum for pay-to-fly here in the UK, is where will wannabes get these 1500 hours from? The USA has a well developed GA market, which we do not. The rapid expansion of the last few years as a result of the rise of the low cost sector couldn't have been fuelled by ex GA pilots. There simply weren't enough.
What will be interesting though, is now that the low cost market is now at saturation in the UK, when the jobs start coming again it will not include large scale growth, just attrition and more tradition levels of annual expansion. Where will airlines get their pilots from then? Will 200 hour wannabes still be recruited? The accepted thought at the moment is that they will try to make money from the RHS by pay to fly schemes. However, my airline is recruiting at the moment and is famed for its cost cutting, so it could be assumed that they would go down this route, but it hasn't happened. They are not recruiting low hours wannabes, even though that would help balance out the relatively senior FO demographic.
Admittedly with the current situation, all are type rated, but the interesting point remains, experienced drivers are being sought rather than any attempt to "make money" from a pay-to-fly scheme, despite the very strong cost cutting culture of the management.
Interesting times ahead.
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The reason we can't have the 1500 hour minimum for pay-to-fly here in the UK, is where will wannabes get these 1500 hours from?
GA, instructing, airwork, para dropping, charter, etc. Getting lots of exposure to all sides of aviation before getting into that 737.
I for one just don't understand why anyone would want to go from flight school straight into an airliner. Where is the grounding?
Besides which, a few years down the road boredom sets in before your 30th birthday.
Aviation has changed so very much the last few years and it's difficult to see any of it for the better!
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Kelly, if you'd actually read what I said...
Our GA market, instructors, gliders etc, wasn't big enough to supply the FOs required for the low cost sector development. Airlines had to take low hours FOs.
Our GA market, instructors, gliders etc, wasn't big enough to supply the FOs required for the low cost sector development. Airlines had to take low hours FOs.
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No Public Transport Line Training for cadet pilots with <1000hrs airline
I previoulsy made the point that the airlines are abusing the Line Training element of the training regulations. CTC, Ryanair are abusing the training system to take adavntage of the well tried and tested training system. Turkish airlines 737 at AMS is a case in point where line training is a substantial risk even with safety pilots on board. CTC and Ryanair make revenue from using uinlicensed pilots on public transport flights
We need to start a petition so that any pilot with less than 'x' number of airline hours (e.g. 250 / 500 / 1000) must undertake their line training, in addition to their Type Rating, completely in the sim. This effectively is 'zero flight-time' Type Rating for cadet pilots but will end this pay-for-job scam. This will put most CTC and Ryanair bods out of the loop unless their parents are mega-rich !
We need to start a petition so that any pilot with less than 'x' number of airline hours (e.g. 250 / 500 / 1000) must undertake their line training, in addition to their Type Rating, completely in the sim. This effectively is 'zero flight-time' Type Rating for cadet pilots but will end this pay-for-job scam. This will put most CTC and Ryanair bods out of the loop unless their parents are mega-rich !
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Always horrible to see the way the pilot community rounds on itself when the chips are down. Same record, different tune to post 9/11.
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Herc I think I need to set some things right for you.
At no point do any unlicensed un-type rated pilots get behind the controls with PAX in the back on European registered Aircraft.
All the pay to fly candidates still need all the ticks in the same boxes as any other pilot sitting in that seat.
It is not uncommon for 200 hour CPL/IR holders to do a type rating and then go for line training.
This practise will not stop until there is either nobody willing to pay or the powers that be legislate to stop it.
It is now a multi million pound industry these line training deals.
At no point do any unlicensed un-type rated pilots get behind the controls with PAX in the back on European registered Aircraft.
All the pay to fly candidates still need all the ticks in the same boxes as any other pilot sitting in that seat.
It is not uncommon for 200 hour CPL/IR holders to do a type rating and then go for line training.
This practise will not stop until there is either nobody willing to pay or the powers that be legislate to stop it.
It is now a multi million pound industry these line training deals.
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Yes I did read your post Artie. But GA always managed to supply the airline world in the past and I belive still would. As we know it is supply and demand and if the supply of guys were less then airlines would invest in training and we would all get better T's and C's. Only a good thing as far as I am concerned and good for all.
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My apologise antonov an error on my behalf.I believe the £260 is for the sim check only. Isn't there another charge to have your cv viewed and another charge for the interview. The £1000 came from what a mate told me it cost him to fly to east mids, pay for 2 nights accomodation, do assessment, eat etc.
Your are correct though a £1000 in probably excessive.
Your are correct though a £1000 in probably excessive.
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I've had redundancy at my airline hanging over my head like a black cloud for the last six months and will hopefully find out very soon either way.
Naturally I've been looking around the market place with very few in the UK offering interviews for next year. Everything is temporary/part-time/contract only and on average I would be taking a 50% paycut. The new salaries on offer will be the same as the cadet salary I started on four years ago with zero time! Unfortunately unemployment insurance only lasts 12 months and only covers the mortgage. I will be happy to take the offer to pay my bills and buy food for another twelve months.
For those who stick it out, no doubt things will get better. But I fear the general expansion and pilot recruitment bubble of the last ten years with low cost, ME & far east carries won't be repeating itself anytime soon!
Naturally I've been looking around the market place with very few in the UK offering interviews for next year. Everything is temporary/part-time/contract only and on average I would be taking a 50% paycut. The new salaries on offer will be the same as the cadet salary I started on four years ago with zero time! Unfortunately unemployment insurance only lasts 12 months and only covers the mortgage. I will be happy to take the offer to pay my bills and buy food for another twelve months.
For those who stick it out, no doubt things will get better. But I fear the general expansion and pilot recruitment bubble of the last ten years with low cost, ME & far east carries won't be repeating itself anytime soon!
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I don't think I'll give up. I don't have the stomach too. I'm just glad I am young, don't have a family to support or any commitments because to be honest, being made redundant as a pilot in such circumstances is more trying than finding that bottom rung on the ladder.
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I am just curious about these young guys and girls that want to step into a 737 or A320 from the word go. Are they curious at all about hand flying at grass roots level? You will find that most pilots who have done bush flying or other types of GA work look back on it with fondest memories. Most often they say its the best flying they have ever done, even if they are now in a nice jet. Its certainly true for me. I still like to think I can go back one day and have a go at flying in the bush, maybe in a classic like a DC3. Cause I miss it.
Its quite sad that they will never know the true joy of flying, low level over a river or flying close to active volcanes. Or the satisfaction of evacuating casualties or people trapped in war zones. Its not for everyone but it is real flying, makes you a better pilot and gives you some great memories to keep for ever.
I suppose the their bank managers wont be complaining........
Its quite sad that they will never know the true joy of flying, low level over a river or flying close to active volcanes. Or the satisfaction of evacuating casualties or people trapped in war zones. Its not for everyone but it is real flying, makes you a better pilot and gives you some great memories to keep for ever.
I suppose the their bank managers wont be complaining........