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Ryanair TR Funding

Old 20th Oct 2009, 19:41
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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I think MH152 has hit a very large nail on the head.

"identify as a huge change in the aviation industry"

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity (re: selection day) to pay for their own type rating. For RYR there is no risk in the process, but more importantly, they can cut their costs massively.

I suspect this is a small but significant part of how they keep their running costs down, and therefore their ticket prices competative.

Contracted staff only get paid when they fly therefore no wastge on annual salsries etc. Their cost cutting knows no bounds with escape instructions on seat backs, online checking, encouraging no baggage, the only cabin crew (to my knowledge) who pay for the priviledge of their training and so on.

With type rating costs being a significant if not huge cost of staffing an airline, and the ever present blinded desire of some to pay whatever it costs to get a RHS of a jet as their first job, lets not kid ourselves that other airlines are not considering similar exploits. Business managers have a primary role to keep a business working, their priority is not to maintain your terms and conditions.

Indeed there are companies who sell a worse product than RYR, selling a type rating with line training, where you pay to fly and don't have a job, contractor or otherwise at the end.

Much as I hate the way the industry is heading, I am one of those looking at RYR as a potential route because of 2 fundamental reasons. Firstly the jobs market is not flooded with lots of employers, it would appear that for a low hours pilot RYR is the only option currently. Secondly, I am middle aged, with a family, house and mortgage and thus flying instruction is so poorly paid that if there were a job, it wouldn't support my family. Don't get me wrong, I have saved and earnt every penny to pay for my training, but I can't pay my bills on 15000 per year.

As to how to pay, there are several options:

1. Bank loan - good luck in a credit crunch, and if you've already got a 70k loan, I suspect it's not going to be viable.
2. Bank of mum and dad - only for the fortunate few, and a risk to offset someone elses property on your gamble.
3. The national lottery.
4. Saving/investments - the sensible if time consuming option.

Just my thoughts,
Obs
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Old 20th Oct 2009, 21:08
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity
Mere pocket money for FR.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 10:13
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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going back to a previous post closer to the start where the author wrote about a plumbing course and being told not to under cut others was interesting -

could we compare new ryan cadets to the influx for polish builders driving down the money my chippie brother is able to earn? I supose so.

But - if ryan air was not around, and the loco had not been invented, i bet there would be thousands of less aircrew jobs available.

Without doubt ryan have changed aviation for good, for the better in the growth of aviation sector, therefore more aircrew jobs, but also for the worse in driving down t+c. Love 'em or hate them they have changed the industry forever.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 11:40
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Perspective.

There are guys out of Oxford etc who thought that getting their waterwings and floating in the BA, bmi, easy holding pool was a better deal than forking out for a 737 TR with Ryanair.

Unfortunately, someone pulled the plug out of the holding pools and the FR courses are full up with the mates of said cadets who shelled out for a TR.

Now like it or lump, but this is the reality: the cadets at FR are now being paid from when the safety pilot was released on their line training.

In 4, maybe 5 years they will have the hours for command: the holding guys waiting for BA et al are now at least 2 years behind them which means that after 14 years in the RHS they will NEVER catch up in terms of earning power.

Harsh, but that's the way of things.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 16:59
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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But no RSS, those guys who didn't manage to get into the BA selection before they shut the door on recruitment just over a year ago, would be far better off NOT applying to FR (the only gig in town at the minute) and instead taking up a data input job, because let's face it, that's what they'd far prefer doing in comparison to flying a jet, isn't it?? Or maybe instead they should take into account the people who do not have access to 33k euros (whether it's their own hard earned cash, a loan, or from mummy and daddy), and say to themselves " Hang on XXX can't afford to do this so my conscience tells me it's not fair and therefore I shouldn't do it either. Get Real. If someone has the money, and it can be sourced by WHATEVER means, then they shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of a few 'bitter' people who aren't in a similar financial position. It's a shit time in the aviation industry right now and one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 18:23
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for lowering the tone there again Smiler, I think you think you sound smart, ruthless and 'Alan Sugar-like' but you just sound like a . I don't like to be directly rude (believe it or not) on here but your words are dangerous.

(the only gig in town at the minute)
at the minute being the operative words.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 19:18
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Because calling someone who goes forward for the FR scheme a 'parasite' wasn't lowering the tone was it beak? As for 'at the minute' being dangerous words, I can only presume that you think even FR aren't recruiting anymore, when in fact they are.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 19:44
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Straight over your head - I wasn't talking about those words. You have gone off on a weak and directionless tangent. I was talking about these words:

[QUOTEHang on XXX can't afford to do this so my conscience tells me it's not fair and therefore I shouldn't do it either. Get Real. If someone has the money, and it can be sourced by WHATEVER means, then they shouldn't have to worry about the feelings of a few 'bitter' people who aren't in a similar financial position. It's a shit time in the aviation industry right now and one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder. ][/quote]

You promote that it is such a care free, risk free decision. It's funny the way you think I am so bitter that I can't afford a TR or my parents couldn't back me. Now I really am not bragging but suffice to say that I could pay for another TR if I was so inclined. I wouldn't. Why? I have very strong feelings that people should earn what they have, not be given it, bought it or steal it.

As for the 'parasite' comment - time to get over it.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 20:49
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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To play devil's advocate Mr Beak,

Might it be that those who took to the (training) skies a generation before us (many of which are now seasoned Legacy carrier captains), are as alarmed at the though of paying for training, Full Stop, as we are by paying for type ratings?

If your moral/advice/angle is to promote a little more forethought prior to spending money on a type rating, then i think you may make it well.
However it is poor form to suggest that in paying for a Type Rating, pilots are prostituting themselves to the lowest bidder.
Bonding is a concept we are all familiar with for new starters, so why not an upfront payment?

Every pilot will look at their careers with a set of scales in front of them, does the "what you get out" balance with the "what you put in"? It would appear at Ryanair, for those who can afford it, the answer is yes.

Regards
CR
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 22:32
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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one needs to do whatever it takes to get that foot on the first rung of the ladder.
It's this that bothers me. First rung on what ladder? I have been in this industry for 30 years and in that time have seen 4 or 5 full economic cycles. Airlines have come and gone. There have been major business casualties in that time, as well as good times and bad. However in the last 10 years or so there has been an accelerating change in the whole way the airline industry works.

The very notion that a first officers job on an aircraft such a 737 or an A320 , was the "first rung on the ladder" used to be treated with some derision, unless it was part of a rare, highly structured and selective scheme, as used to exist at Hamble/BEA/BOAC/British airways, and a few others. Alternatively there was significant "first commercial rung" employment from military aviators who were transferring career paths. Demand fluctuated with the cycles, but the experience base required was always high enough to ensure the rewards reflected the likely supply of suitable candidates.

The recent evolution of the low cost culture, and by this I don't just mean the well known low cost airlines, brought with it a complete re-think of the employment requirements. For an airline stripping out every conceivable unnecessary cost, the prospect of simply doing away with one pilot was a tempting proposition. Unfortuately for them, that was a regulatory non-starter. However the regulator seemed to have few qualms with them simply shovelling somebody with the requisite bits of paper in their paw, into the right hand seat of a passenger airliner, provided there was sufficient experience in the left hand seat. This then spawned a whole industry of new and established training schools, linking up with airlines to provide this low cost employee. Indeed there was was no shortage of people scrambling to subscribe to the concept.

The enticement was, that once the early sacrifice had been absorbed by a prospective candidate and the initial obstacles were overcome, they would then be on the same salary and career path as everyone that had gone before them. Like all good pyramid schemes that was often the case for the early players. As the new low cost airlines expanded, they created their own career vacuum that was filled from the bottom and that in turn created new demand for eager subscribers at the entry level.

Then two things happened. Firstly the hard recession that has yet to filter through to much of the industry, but will start to very soon, and for the next few years. Secondly, the legislative changes that extended many pilots careers from age 55-60 to age 65, thereby adding up to 10 years to an existing pilots longevity. This killed much of the ordinary wastage by retirement from the industry, and had the knock on effect of restricting movement and lowering terms and conditions from the base upwards. Couple these two major factors, with the new "vanity publishing" method of filling the right seat, and you have the perfect storm. Airlines can now decimate the terms and conditions for pilot employment, and spread those conditions up through the workforce, knowing that those higher up the tree have nowhere to go, and hence no choice. There is little or no demand for new captains in many companies, and precious little for the foreseeable future. Plenty of experienced pilots either unemployed or under threat of redundancy ready to jump at any chance that becomes available. This is exactly what is happening now.

Those on this so called "first rung" are not cheap labour that the airlines are salivating at the prospect of becoming expensive labour in the near future. They are cheap labour that can be easily and readily replaced by more willing "first rungers" as the situation dictates. In many airlines the right hand seat is either already, or in danger of, becoming nothing more than part of the revenue producing training system. Your participation is absolutely no guarantee of any ongoing commitment once you stop becoming part of the revenue stream. Of course, you can take your newly aquired type rating and line flying to another airline. Except that more and more of those "other airlines" aren't much interested in you either, unless you are prepared to be a revenue stream for their own schemes. With few retirements, and little or no movement, the pool starts to back up and overflow. That is what is happening now.

It is alarming just how rapidly the deterioration is spreading up the tree. It won't be too long before people have to pay for their own command assessments, command training, and new type ratings. In fact, in some companies it is already starting to happen. That first rung you aspire to get on, may in fact be nothing more than a hamster wheel, where you pay through the nose to get nowhere fast, or are pushed out/fall off, when you become irrelevant to the business model.

I think changes will come eventually. In the US, there are already legislative changes now coming through to restrict this type of employment to those with at least 1500 hours. I think that will happen here as well eventually. In the meantime there are going to be alot of "tears before bedtime", and that will be throughout the entire industry, not just the entry level "first rungers."
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 23:09
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Why are people not reacting to the price?

Bealzebub- Excellent post!

Having done TR courses on A320 and B737 as well as another jet and both medium and heavy TPs I again am looking for a job. FR seems to ONLY take on guys with NO airline experience.
But what bugs me the most is that they charge over 30k!? You can get an A320 AND a B737 rating for that price!!
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 17:08
  #172 (permalink)  
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Bealzebub - excellent posting, thank you making an enormously important point so well.

These SSTR's and contract/felxible working jobs are underming the foundation that whole the whole profession up. They have the capacity to bring it all crashing down. The traditional fixation that 'making it' meant a jet job with a large/medium airline is no longer the end point it once was.


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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 18:04
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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BCNS,

FR don't have the requirement for DECs that existed 5 years ago: there are enough SFOs ready for CU within the company to fill the majority of available positions in the foreseeable future. That said, guys with good command time on the 737 - 300 - 900 are not necessarily being rejected out of hand.

Nevertheless, the company prefers to take shiny new cadets ( first rungers ) and train them to the RHS because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures.

That is the choice of the management: it has little to do with the cost of the TR or any "profit" generated.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 18:25
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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TRSS, do you really, honestly, actually believe what you just said? That is absurd. It has everything to do with the very definate profit made from the TR and the 'selection' for it. I am sorry but what a load fo rubbish.

The:

because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures.
bit that you mention is a bonus for them because it means their pilots have nothing to compare the dreadful conditions on offer to. Of course their is not the element of having to train out different SOPs but it isn't their problem as they aren't paying for the training. They also would not like to have to bargain with people to entice them across to Ryanair from other airlines using proper Ts and Cs. Their whole recruitment policy is geared towards paying the least, having the upper hand and monopolising people and the industry. They achieve this through recruiting desperate low experienced people who generally haven't had to earn the money they are paying them to fly for them. They work like a casino - they always make sure you 'win' just enough to keep on 'playing'. After all, people without money can't keep on playing. Snot nosed little 18 -25 year olds who have trained on the back of mummy and daddies home seem to defy this rule however......but for how long? I guarantee not forever.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 18:45
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzebub

One of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe in the last ten years. encapsulating a philosophy that is insidiously working its way in to the industry. I totally agree. Well said.

Flash
ex Self-Improver (remember those?)
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 18:47
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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i seriously don't understand why there is always an attack on the younger pilots on this forum. we all understand that we are borrowing money from our parents to start training but it doesn't mean that we will forget about them as soon as we are on the ladder.

i don't take this advantage for granted because i know without my parents, i wouldn't have been at this stage of my career but when the opportunity of ryanair came along, why wouldn't i take it? i get to keep current, get paid, remain in the loop and most importantly i am learning the trade and gaining experience. at this moment in time, what is better? refusing to join ryanair and becoming rusty with little experience or join ryanair and become experienced?

at the end of the day, who got lewis hamilton to where he is?
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 19:42
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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i think pilotho unfortunately like many in a similiar position to yourself you are completely missing the point.

the problem with mummy and daddy sponsoring you, is that you can afford to take on crap terms hopeless pay etc because you are not standing 'on your own two feet' or so to speak.
a candidates suitability to be offered a job as f/o at ryr etc has more to do with your parents financial status than just your ability as a pilot.what seperates you from me is i couldnt afford to pay for a tr you could, so you could afford to take crap terms, i couldn't.it becomes a very uneven and unfair playing field.while should my company offer me the terms they do when you come along and accept crap because at the age of 23 your unwilling to patiently wait for that jet job rather than throwing 35k at the problem.how does my company compete with ryr bases on employee costs,they cant,so they my cut t&c

you take the jobs away for the general pilot community and they are available to a select few i.e. those with wealthy parents

the lewis hamilton analogy probably isnt appropriate because as far as i know mclaren havent charged him 35k to drive the car, they havent told him to set up his own company so he can get paid.he doesnt work for an agency.hes guaranteed an annual salary not we will pay you by the race if we need you to drive, and he got his job down to ability pure and simply,daddy may have paid for him to drive carts in the early days but he still has a very rare god given talent.he was being supprted by daddy while in formula 1.and fernando alonso or any other drive didnt have his terms attacked because lewis hamilton entered the sport.probably not quite the same situation when you analyse it is it

to be honest your post just sums up the whole problem with the bank of mummy and daddy.its blissful ignorance of the damage it causes.im sorry if this comes across as blunt but how can you fail to see the damage it does and the reason people have an issue with it?

yes you are getting to learn your trade,but what will your trade be like in 5 or 10 years time because of your decisions
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 19:46
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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TheBeak

It has nothing to do with the profit: the experienced FO would still have to pay for a TR or an OCC. It has everything to do with getting a clean slate to work with.

When you own / run your own airline you can be as generous as you like and you can choose who you do or don't employ; just like MOL.

I reiterate, the poor folks who were floating in the now dried up holding pools will NEVER catch up with their peers who joined Ryanair in terms of earning capacity.

You pays your money, takes your choice, and and 10 years in the LHS with FR over 10 years in the RHS with BA is a no brainer!
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 19:51
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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i think trss you have made a very dangerous assumption on the future earnings of ryr employees against those of a legacy carriers.the last time i checked a ryr pilot on a crookfield contract was guaranteed nothing in terms of salary or hours or even time to command against the top scale in ba which is up on 150k.i think alot also depends on how old the individual is
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 19:57
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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An excellent post Blackred, we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

TRSS, I hear what you are saying and:

the poor folks who were floating in the now dried up holding pools will NEVER catch up with their peers who joined Ryanair in terms of earning capacity.
is a very interesting and questionably true statement. But the guys and girls floating in the BA, Easyjet etc holdpools probably wouldn't be selected and probably, in general, wouldn't pay for the TR.

and and 10 years in the LHS with FR over 10 years in the RHS with BA is a no brainer!
Something to think about there again, I just don't know, if I had the two opportunities offered to me, cost aside, I am almost certain I'd take the BA option. But I can't help but think long term.

Thanks for your objective and valid response though TRSS.
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