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Ryanair TR Funding

Old 16th Oct 2009, 08:08
  #121 (permalink)  

PPRuNe Handmaiden
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Location: Duit On Mon Dei
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Since I was accused of having it comparatively easy...

I finished my CPL in 1991. There was a recession. Had to wait 3 years for my first full time job. Instructed part time on the weekends waiting for the market to improve.

In a population of 22 million, a couple of hundred applications is the same as a couple of thousand "over here". There are more jobs in Europe/UK than there are in Australia/New Zealand, esp jet jobs.

I got my JAA ATPL in 2001/2002. In fact I was in an ATPL theory class in Coventry when the WTC were attacked. Yes, another recession..

My timing's been lousy.

Where did I say it was easy? We have been accused of "not understanding". We do understand, we've been there and we know that it does improve.

Market rates for simulators change. What CAE & Alteon etc will charge an individual is different to what they charge a company. Also, if a company pays for your rating, the instructor is paid by the company and you'll be paid to train.

What we also know is that not every one who graduates with a CPL will get a job. That's something the flight schools do not tell you.

If you want to go the Ryanair* route, go for it, just read the contract very closely, get it scrutinised by an lawyer so you know exactly what you are getting yourself into (tax, NI, base location and transfers, hotac, stby, sim etc). Don't be blinded by the shiny jet.

And as I posted earlier, don't go broke "living the dream".

Good luck

* or any other company that charges for a type rating and hires you as a contractor, not as an employee.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 08:52
  #122 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666

I agree with you in principle, but as you know the reality is that unlike Australasia and the US there is no GA industry in Europe capable of supporting the needs of the airlines. Africa is an option, but the opportunities are still limited.

With regard to the regionals, their requirements are no different from anybody else's. For most you simply will not get a look in if you are not prepared to stump up the cash.

I am absolutely certain, that the guys posting here would jump at an Aer Arann, Aurigny,Air Soutwest, Eastern, etc if the offer came rather than pay for a FR TR. But as they all ask for money FR would probably be the first port of call for many.

The Quantaslink situation is interesting. But seeing as Jetstar was and will be expanding rapidly and taking on GA guys with twin time, what right thinking Aussie would pay for a TP TR when they could pay for an A320 one and earn more?

With regards to the TRs, I don't think it is as straight forward as that. Our airline leases all its aircraft, they don't come with TRs. Whilst it is arguable that TR is a significant cost, I cannot understand how pilots can agree to pay for line training, that just baggers belief!
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 19:10
  #123 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by irishpilot
You knew a contact in a high place
Originally Posted by irishpilot
or someone else did
Originally Posted by irishpilot
or you are really good
(Not really)
Originally Posted by irishpilot
... got that bit of much needed luck.
Now you've got it! Luck that came from doing what most people do. Knocking on doors, staying the distance and taking whatever work came my way. I set my sights lower, planned accordingly and worked through as an instructor and a GA pilot. I had 2500 hours, all piston time, before I got near a jet and it was GREAT flying. I harbour not a single iota of bitterness about having to do it that way because I chose it and got what I expected and before you say "It can't be done here, that way, any more" I cry "B0llocks!". Only three days ago I wandered into my local flying club and was asked to role play the part of a student for a guy wanting to become an instructor there. They get applicants every week. Is he going to live on Pot Noodle for two years? Almost certainly, but at least his parents will keep their house.

I fly with people from a similar background which at the very least makes our flightdeck and down-route conversations....... nay, our lives FAR more interesting than would be the case between two modular, wunderkinden*.

Captain OATS: "So. Which batch of drones were you in?"
F/O OATS: (Five minutes later) "361B"
Captain OATS: (Five minutes later) "Oh"

GA Captain: "Ever been to (obscure place on the fringes of civilisation)?"
GA F/O: "Once. We woke up in the morning all in one room festooned with local fertility beads, stark-naked, surrounded by sleeping gibbons".
GA Captain: "Gibbons, eh?"
GA F/O: "Yup"
GA Captain: "With us it was orangutans"

Sorry but I just don't understand those who borrow a sackful of money all hinged upon well, another sackful of money, to go and work in a sanitised, hum-drum environment at a company where the CEO and management positively hate them. Where's the soul? Where's the fun? The vibe? The reason to get up in the morning? And don't tell me it's the thrill of doing London-Edinburgh back to back because that's just being in denial.

Look, folks. I'm not trying to rub your noses in it or come across as the salty old dog of the sea (ok,air) and if I'm coming across as curt it's because:

1. I've been ranting against SSTR for years.

2. The buggers who started and perpetuate it are ruining the industry.

3. Their 'f*ck you' attitude toward those they're spoiling it for grates with me. People who now look for work are paying to fly and all because someone, somewhere paid to jump the queue. It'll never affect me because you're right, I'm past that stage. But I still get angry when I the havoc it wreaks and that's why I continue to argue against it.

I'll also go out of my way to help anyone who wants to follow the slower, 'proper' route and I'm not the only one. GA/Bizjet people tend to help others out a LOT more than you find in the airline world.

PS. irishpilot 'tain't "elocution", just plain old spelling

*From personal experience. I've interviewed several dozen most of whom, I'm sorry to say, would drive me to distraction five minutes into the cruise.
Old 16th Oct 2009, 19:51
  #124 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,219
Flintstone, I think you're an interesting guy and I'm jealous of your career in many more ways than you realise. Your stance vis-a-vis SSTR is honourable and perfectly understandable. Unfortunately the world isn't honourable or correct. It's dog eat dog right now and no amount of luck or sentimentality can change that. I was speaking to a very good friend this afternoon (flies the 767 in the UK) and he pointed out that I am damn lucky to be getting a job in the current climate. No experience pilots I have met have said any different even though all know Ryanair's faults.

However Flintstone, my main point is that I think you make an unfair assumption about the type of people who join Ryanair. Of the half dozen I know, none are the 'Wunderkind' type you describe. I'm certainly not and I'd say you've misjudged the average Ryanair intake. The Ryanair pilots I know are generally from diverse backgrounds and have worked hard to be in the position they're in.

As for me, I'm a 30-something with a previous, interesting career, a desire to start a family as soon as is feasible (i.e. another 2 years on a low income isn't a go-er), an extended family spread around the continents and a youth spent abroad, plenty of hilarious and unusual stories to tell a bored Captain on the flightdeck. If you ever get lucky enough to share a cockpit with me you'll have a good time, honest .

Your comments might be better placed on the CTC, Cabair or OAA threads, not that some very nice people don't qualify out of those places!
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 23:26
  #125 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southampton
Age: 56
Posts: 198
Airlines such as FR react to market forces. They're a business. FR are very very good at what they do.

Timing/luck can make a big difference. I joined FR 2yrs ago as a DEC and had never sat in a 73 before. FR paid for the lot, bonded me for 5 yrs and I'm not on a reduced salary. I'm also employed by FR and not Broookfield.

Pure luck/timing. Demand was exceeding supply.
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Old 17th Oct 2009, 08:16
  #126 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Age: 44
Posts: 8
Was chuckling to myself reading all the bickering. Personally, I'm going to sell my vital organs to fund my training.
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Old 17th Oct 2009, 09:28
  #127 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 620
So why is it then '99%' of the people I know with an fATPL who have funded their training by various means and have trained in various ways, would not pay Ryanair for a TR? They have not done the selection and nor would they. They instead are working in every industry but aviation, flying an SEP hour a month, waiting for the tide to change. What makes it all so different for an 18-22 year old that has a charge over his/her parents? Why is patience all of a sudden no longer a virtue? Why is money no longer an object? Because it isn't yours and you haven't had to earn it?

This doesn't apply to the likes of MikeHotel who is 30 something and has paid his/her way - what you do with your money and how much risk you take on your own is up to you. But Having your parents take a risk for your training and then basically blackmailing, actively or passively, with the whole 'it's the only job available forever' line is despicable. Can you not wait in line for your turn? You knowingly joined a big queue. You need to earn respect and responsibilty - not have someone buy it for you.
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Old 17th Oct 2009, 09:45
  #128 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,263
Was chuckling to myself reading all the bickering. Personally, I'm going to sell my vital organs to fund my training.
Good idea, but not much demand I am afraid. Brains are in short supply, so they might command a fair premium. Hearts are also popular as they like to take these and break them into many pieces. The rest of the organs are of little value as they simply help themselves to these as you sleep. Livers are sometimes useful on PPRuNe as they can be squeezed to extract the bile. Similarly kidneys and bladders to extract other fluids. Remember to leave a small hole so you can vent your spleen!
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Old 17th Oct 2009, 16:16
  #129 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Posts: 202
Beak theres the two options, go for Ryanair, or sit and wait as you say.neither is whats your problem?If one is does apply for Ryanair it does not mean they get it for start.
also you say the "parents" are taking a futher risk, i bet you the guy that gets into Ryanair has his loan paid before the guy that doesnt.the bank/parents/friends/family will be much happier then!
Neither option is wrong. .
This is an industry where you should at least try appear professional... coming on calling people parasites if they dont agree with you is nothing short of ignorance and snobby.Have some respect for yourself, and others.
Bet Beak is not as vocal when in the guy in the left hand seat makes a statement he disagrees with.
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 08:49
  #130 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 19,854
I've been busy so haven't commented much on this one.

I've been recommending the RYR deal for over a year now as its basically the only deal in town.

Having issued that statement, and knowing several nice people who are engaged upon the scheme - its a pile of shit.

You're paying 50% above list price for a type rating. You're going to be O Leary's bitch for 6 months and then you're going to be shot in the head or told to sign up to Brookfield. Which is kind of the same thing.

It will start your career. It will get you experience. It will make you Boeing rated. It will open up options. It will allow you to finance the loan repayments.

I know. I know it makes sense. I don't blame you. Read my second line again.

But for those not yet committed to this path TAKE NOTE. The best offer out there is to pay an exorbitant fee to get a trial period with a pilot-hating airline which will force you to become a contractor with close to Zero employment rights over when, where or if you work. Is that 70,000 still burning a hole?


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Old 18th Oct 2009, 09:43
  #131 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 608
i think www summed it up with above post,it is in my opinion also a dreadful deal.

and before someone tells me its the only way forward thats a load of crap too.i started out post 9/11 jobs were like hens teeth, i managed to get a jet job without having to pay for tr.yes it did involve luck i will agree, but more importantly i think it involved patience and initiative, not marching into ryr hq with the cheque book in one hand and a tub of vaseline in the other

if its your own money then fair enough, but if its mammy and daddy remortgaging the house then serious questions needed to be asked.

the only thing ryr promise is the fact you will be down about 50k by the time they are finished with i would imagine they will be slow to ever take someones cash and then say sorry no places for you as the tr scheme will die when word gets out.but how can giving yourself on a plate to mol be a good idea.

live the dream!

Last edited by blackred1443; 18th Oct 2009 at 12:23.
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 11:03
  #132 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 19,854
Thats a pertinent point.

This thread has got bogged down with debt and how you pay for your FR TR.

In answer to those who moaned earlier about the moderation of this thread I say that the answer to the thread topic is either The Bank, or, your Parents. And that's it.

Thread over.

Oh, and the bank ain't lending..

The real topic worthy of discussion is what's life like as a Brooky for Ryan?

I genuinely. Honestly. Really. Think about it. Definitely. Think it would be like being a prostitute. A whore. MOL is the pimp. Brookfield the House. You the prostitute.

He tells you when and where you can work. What you will do. And if he doesn't like it you are thrown to the debt wolves. If you swallow his rules then joining a union is fruitless. Threats work. You can be sworn at in meetings. You will bring your own empty bottle to work. You may fill it once you have cleared security. You will walk to the aircraft. Across the the dark, streaming with rain, apron. Even though there is a bus taking EVERY OTHER crew to their aeroplane. You are not worthy. You are Ryanair crew. You earn more. Your salary is higher. Your tax status is better. Your career prospects are greater.

Lies. Falsehood. Dellusion.

Don't spenf 70k to put yourself in a position to pay 33k to MOL in order to accept this crap ersosion of the profession to which you aspire. Just Don't.

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Old 18th Oct 2009, 11:46
  #133 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 620
In answer to those who moaned earlier about the moderation of this thread I say that the answer to the thread topic is either The Bank, or, your Parents. And that's it.
Well, quite. If you need to ask the question then you can't afford it and you shouldn't be doing it.

The real topic worthy of discussion is what's life like as a Brooky for Ryan?
It would be in a world of real answers but you will get the usual pie-in-the-sky answers we are so used to from this lot. And they will really try and show that they are being rational by saying 'it isn't perfect' like they are leveling with us. No it isn't perfect. That's a euphamism for it's absolute crap working for them.

I am going to apply to have it put in the JAA ATPL HPL syllabus, Ryanair Denial. It's going to prove dangerous.

If you want a more realistic view, have a look in the Terms section up top. Don't ask a load of 20 year olds who were bought a 737 job for Christmas or you'll get fluffy out.

You boys and girls had better make hay while the sunshines because, as MOL boastfully admits - his airline loves a recession. The recession wont last forever. You have given him a mile and he is about to take a Parsec.
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 11:56
  #134 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London, Essex
Posts: 6
Has anyone managed to get a actual loan for this recently? Looking into providers now. I know there is a bank in spain that are loaning to OAA students, but waiting to hear back from them.

birdsflyinghigh is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2009, 12:04
  #135 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Be careful with BBVA, there is a reason why they are so willing to lend to to a load of lemming, desperate pilot trainees.
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 12:20
  #136 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 608
its should be asked also why are so many airlines now charging for type it because 'mummy and daddys' offspring dont have any patience.its much easier to fire 50k of someone elses cash at the problem than have to serve an apprenticeship - instruct, light twin flying etc.try working in other parts of the world,use ones intiative,do the much less glamorous part of the process that worked for so many others before (including me thankfully!)

so much credit available,so much greed,so little patience,look what it has done to the industry.

sadly the whore comparison is very accurate me thinks
blackred1443 is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2009, 12:29
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London, Essex
Posts: 6

I totally agree, its way way outside of my budget, which has already gone beyond its initial limitations! NO more money for me, at least until an airline promises me a job with terms and conditions - then i will pay for the TR, if thats the way the world is heading.

I was wondering as I already have a loan, and have been exploring the refinancing of it. Just wondered who else do that kind of thing so i can investigate. BBVA are not my first choice, a bank that isnt even based in the UK already poses prblems for me in my mind.

Cheers for the responses so far..
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 12:41
  #138 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,263
Dear wannabes

Just a quick heads up in support of the "parents" side of this argument. There seems to be a pervading assumption that a generation of parents will find themselves living in a trailer or cardboard box, having naively been pursuaded by the fruit of their loins that they should remortgage the family home beyond any ability to repay such a debt, in support of said childs worthy ambitions.

Whilst it is true that we leap with joy at the prospect of supporting the decisions our progeny make, that aren't likely to involve a a visit from the local constabulary, we have over the last 18 years or more learned a thing or two when it comes to children and financial acumen. Now don't misunderstand me, we know what a haemorrhage you have been on our wallets for the best part of two decades. From those shopping carts full of nappies and premium priced tiny jars of baby food, through clothes that lasted 25 minutes and toys that lasted even less. School fees that would have supported the foreign debt repayments of a small nation. Driving lessons, cars, university, holidays, allowances etc. There has never been a despot in history that has manged to tax our income in quite the way you have.

Despite all of this we have still managed to hang on to the family home. Yes we have moved from time to time, and we have refinanced to provide us with the illusion of moving closer to the utopia of our eventual retirement. We have deluded ourselves that you will grow up and leave home to start a life of your own one day. Then the mortgage will be paid off, we can go on that world cruise, and all will be right with the world. Of course we know that is a dream that reality will likely shatter, but our real experience of life has provided us with a hardened sense of self preservation.

So, whilst we are always excited in encouraging you in your dreams and beliefs, particularly those that might actually one day result in you not being an endless drain on our resources, we are also not stupid. Long ago we learned to write off any realistic prospect of ever seeing the return of money we "loaned" you, although we live in hope. Likewise, whatever we may have told you, we were not going to make ourselves destitute on the altar of your dreams, however realistic, wild or fanciful.

Just to cap it off, I might remind you that you have just spent the last 5 years or so, assaulting and insulting us with your hormonally induced attitude, temper tantrums, irrationality, unreasonableness, uncooperative behaviour, laziness, unsanitary and slovenly behaviour, all wrapped up in a package of hatred and ire directed squarely at us for having the audacity to bring you forth into this world in the first place.

Now it would be easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, that this change in your behaviour and newfound desire to become a respectable member of society would be a worthy investment on our part, if we were to sacfrifice ourselves to this new and expensive religion. However nature provided that antidote to us during your recent teenage years. So whilst there may be other childrens parents that can afford such things, most of us can't. Because we still love you, and labour in our illusions that you might leave home one day, we will of course continue to support you and help in any way that we reasonably can. Those that worry that we have somehow lost all sense of reason and self presevation, should set their minds at rest. It might sometimes appear that way, but we haven't!


Mummy and Daddy.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2009, 22:11
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,219
This thread has got bogged down with debt and how you pay for your FR TR
Er, no, that's what the thread was supposed to be's just that you and TheBeak would prefer to slag off Ryanair instead. Oh, and it's nice to see that you've put your favourite Pimping record back on the turntable WWW. I honestly hadn't realised that pilots at other Airlines get to choose their Base, the times they work, and choose their own SOPs. Why is it that all the pilots I know outside Ryanair spend as much of their time moaning about their own jobs as you do about Ryanair?

Like you, WWW, I know some very nice people working for Ryanair on Brookfield contracts. They're realistic about Ryanair, their decision to pay for their Type Rating, their pay and terms, their tax status, the walk across the 20 metres of tarmac, and all the other stuff. But they would rather be working for Ryanair than sitting on the dole.

Seeing as it's fashionable to keep repeating the same arguments on this thread, I shall do the same. There are many people out there who did not mortgage their parents houses yet can afford to fund a Ryanair TR, who have worked damn hard to be in the position to start a career in the airlines, who would love to have the time to be patient and wait for the recession to end, but for whom Ryanair represents a sensible (if unpalatable) option due to their personal circumstances. It is a myth that all Ryanair FOs are 21 years of age...

I have yet to meet a professional pilot who has criticised my decision to join Ryanair and I would trust the opinions of those with whom I have spoken about my decision well above the views of disgruntled pilots on an anonymous forum whose opinions are based on third-hand rumour and their own prejudices.
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Old 18th Oct 2009, 23:45
  #140 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK FIR
Posts: 256
What an amazing thread.

Some turkeys will vote for Christmas after all.

I saw this coming 7 years ago, and it still amazes me that there are people dumb enough to swallow the bolloxolgy about having to pay for a type rating.

There are obviously free type ratings out there - however none of the chumps who are coughing up 33k (amazing - just amazing!) for a 737 type rating can see it.

The management are getting the free type ratings - in fact they are getting an even better deal! Not only do they get to laugh at you, they make a profit on you as well. Sadly none of those having hysterics about it can see this

7 years ago I lobbied BALPA to nip this crap in the bud before the cancer spread throughout the industry, but as usual BALPA didn't see it happening at BA so all was well. IPA went one better and asked members to write in a tell them where the best SSTR was.

Pilots can be their own worst enemies at times.
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