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Ryanair TR Funding

Old 25th Oct 2009, 06:16
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Beak says "Don't wonder why many more crashes will happen and why this career is going down the pan."
So now Ryanair pilots are a dangerous??? Haha And as I said before we ALL past the same tests to get our license...
This time next year there still won’t be free type ratings for us all mate…
Your delusions get funnier daily.

Still waiting to find out how you went from a PPL holder to an all knowledgeable free type rated airline pilot who is now unemployed in less 18months.... astonishing!! Anyone else not find this unusual coming from a guy with such strong views?
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 07:49
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Irishpilot, to answer the question you have now asked three times and which I have ignored, I will quote McNulty who offered a similar response to me:

you should start to think that its none of your ****ing business how
And don't speak about things getting funnier daily with the quality of your spelling heading the way it is. You are the King of Malapropisms. Now, rather than take this thread from all the people, who I do believe have actually been 'enjoying' it, any further, let's allow the debate about Ryanair to continue. From now on, you are arguing on your own, the concept having a slanging match with someone I don't know, over a computer, is actually an embarassment and laughable. I feel silly. I'll continue to discuss when it gets back on topic, if it gets back on topic.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 08:19
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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BritishGuy - Ryanair do not seem to favour recruiting experienced F/O's.

For what it is worth the command upgrades (I'm led to believe) are around the '3000 hour on type' mark.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 08:31
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Not only do they not favour it, they don't entertain it. There is no chance.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 08:58
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Judging by that categoric clarification from our good friend The Beak, are we to read into it then that Ryanair have NEVER taken on an experienced F/O before and will NEVER do so again?

Not having a pop old chap, just forewarning the impressionable of our community to the dangers of taking everything on face value. Especially on PPRuNe. Especially posted by you (without those 'cold hard facts' that you never seem willing to divulge of course)

However, in somewhat less emphatic terms than Monsieur Beak I would agree that now is a ghastly time to be an experienced F/O wishing to apply to RYR
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 09:27
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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The reason this thread has developed in the way it has is quite clear - the industry has a problem. The likes of Bealzebub and other experienced folk who have seen it all before many times over, are standing as the voice of warning that the core of this problem lies in the recruitment policy of FR, the concept of today's "low hour" pilot, what he/she will accept as a basic remuneration package, and that the "first rung" of the employment ladder is now considered to be nothing less than a medium size jet.

I have been contributer to this growing issue by joining the CTC cadet scheme and gaining entry to the industry on one of these much vaunted (and hugely expensive) fast track schemes. I joined easyjet in late 2005 and benefitted from a hiring boom during WWW's "Golden age for wannabeism", ending up with a well paid permanent job, and B737 and A320 ratings. All for £60k! What a bargain.

Hooray for me, and I was every bit as pleased for myself as some of the contributers on this thread who are overjoyed at the prospect of flying that nice Irish registered Boeing. I didn't think there was anything wrong with working for free for six months while CTC paid me pocket money and experienced Co-pilots from other airlines sat in hold pools while us freebies jumped the queue. I'd passed all my exams and tests so why shoudn't I fly a big jet with 200hrs, I'd struck lucky and I was obviously a damn good pilot!

Of course the reality was something completely different. I wasn't some young hotshot, I was a brand new, thoroughly naieve CPL with a willingness to work 6 months without leave or pay, and as such for easyjet, a cheap way to fill what was at one time in aviation history an expensive RHS.

Four years of airline flying has given me a bit of perspective, and the legacy of the CTC scheme that I thought to be the only show in town during my wannabe years has become apparent. Prospective pilots' flock to CTC's gates, seduced by the prospect of pots' of money and the glory of flying a jet at 200hrs. All the while CTC use the lucky 300 or so who passed through the scheme during a boom period that probably isn't going to return, each landing a permanent and well paid job, as adverts that you can't go wrong. The truth? Long term it isn't sustainable, unless each year the pilots graduating from its ranks accept lower and lower terms and conditions.

Which brings us back to FR and the rot that has firmly set in at the bottom of the industry. A general acceptance that flying for free, or even paying to fly is an acceptable means of securing a "job" with the likes of FR and easyjet, justifiable on the basis that others (me) have done it before you. That contract work is the norm and you will get paid when you fly and oh, by the way, if we don't need you, swivel. You're a temp after all. Pilots with a decent level of experience in other areas of aviation or at other airlines cannot even get their CV read because they would have the nerve to expect a permanent contract with some job security. All the talk of leaving FR after a few thousand hours and joining an airline with better working practices and conditions is flawed - by this point no other airline will look at you because you are an expense, they want experienced captains or brand new co-pilots who will pay for everything and expect very little in return, remember? Ryanair, ezy are making money from the RHS, why shouldn't they?

So there are those who would say that T&Cs are heading south in every industry, just accept the on offer at Ryanair, get involved, and ignore the bitter and innane ramblings of people like The Beak.

I would suggest that as a generation of airline pilots, we are going to reap what we have sown. And it won't be pleasant.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 09:32
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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I continue to read this thread with an increasing sense of disbelief and incredulity.

I cannot for the life of me understand why pilots - people whom I would assume are equipped with a brain - are so wiling to contribute to their own financial demise as a working group. Considering that pilots must work as closely knit team it seems a little ironic that many are willing to assist in the general downfall of pilots T's & C's.

Why should the most skilled and safety critical groups in an airline have to subsidise a profitable business? It makes no sense at all.

There will of course be those that feel they must justify their decisions, however poor those choices may be.

I can only conclude that Ryanair are cynically exploiting the vulnerable, and based on many of the posts here, the woefully naeive.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 10:33
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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No company gives out free type ratings then does not use the pilot, unless they do in dreamland or a computer game!
I am not in a slagging match as you say…sorry if you have taken it that way…maybe the guy you called a parasite took offence to you? One rule for you another for everyother member?
I am just saying what people are thinking i.e you should stop
  • Calling people parasites etc
  • Acting like a know it all chief pilot…
  • Who really is a frozen ATPL holder
  • With no job and a “free type rating”…
  • Claims Ryanair pilots are dangerous and will cause serious accidents in the future!!
I think your claim that they will cause accidents proves you have some unfounded deep hatred for the company! And that your word is to be taken with a pinch of salt!and hence your posts contribute nothing.

So Actually Beak it does matter how you could be a trainee ATPL pilot with a free type rating, work in an airline and lose your job ALL in period of 18months.
Why??because..
A) The company went into financial issues and dropped you...
B) or they discovered no Captain in their company could sit with you for any extended duration in the cockpit
C) its a big fat lie
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 10:58
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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I think the things you should be asking the pharmacist for are called tampons.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 11:20
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Haha and Ryanair pilots are dangerous pilots… I think you’re the one that needs to grow a set of balls and get on with life…get a job…sure your “type rated and have airline experience”, super intelligent, open-minded tolerant and not vulgar… should not be a problem! You sure have shown the qualities of a airline pilot with your first thread and last…


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Old 25th Oct 2009, 13:09
  #211 (permalink)  
P-T
 
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I've stood back for a few days/weeks and read all the posts from everyone.

But my over whelming thought is that I'm not surprised that "The Beak" is unemployed in the aviation industry (or at least that's what I can make from this forum, it's a little confusing as there is no consistency), your attitude stinks. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I really can't see your point anymore. What was it again? As your goal posts seem to have shifted. Yet you tell other people to "get over it" when you throw some form of abuse towards them but when it's coming back your way it's a different story. Surely the mod's should just delete this thread as all it's good for is giving "The Beak" abuse and giving him a thread to whinge about. If you spent as much time and thought into finding a job or making money, you might be flying a B737 or even be able to afford the TR for RYR!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really, really, really hope I never fly with you.


And for the record, I can't remember who mentioned this point, but I know that a few (10) people have had B757 and A320 rating for free with no bond and no pay cut. I understand it's rare, but it does happen.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 13:37
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Well was it days or weeks? Only you know.

My opinion is one that I am giving with the best of intentions. I am not out to wind people up. I am not out to belittle. I am not out to gain attention. I do find it all rather funny though, achieveing some of the cantankerous, ill thought out responses that I am - but that's just a nice byproduct for me.

You can get a job without paying for the TR or the selection - FACT. Perhaps not right now, but the right people can and will. The wrong people wont. The impatient wont. And the people who take the easy option wont. If you wont let timing a.k.a. luck doesn't favour you then you wont. If you are a quitter then you wont.

We must accept that there are horses for courses. The purpose of this thread, or any other is not to tear strips off each other but to display our views and perhaps point out something that sits particuarly well with (i.e. helps make the decision for) someone who is a 'horse' that shares our same 'course' or is wondering which 'horse' they are.

Honestly though, no wonder this industry has descended into the shit it has. And no wonder the UK is in the shit it is.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 13:52
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Beak, you're an attention whore. Kindly off and spread your bitter mucus up somebody else's garden path.

And anybody else who pays this prat any more attention is no better.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 14:10
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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having read the posts and listened to both sides of the arguement, i have not heard what i consider a single valid reason why one would choose the ryr scheme.not one.the main one being its better than the dole queue,is it though?i dont think it is because you have just spent 35k for the right seat, and in 12 months time someone else will spend 35k to replace you.i wonder what will happen to your terms

this leads me onto g-awzk post above and a comment he made about pilots begin intelligent and his surprise at them paying to fly.why would you pay for a type rating and thereby contribute to that airline being able to offer cheap flights to the costa del chav brigade.do doctors pay for their jobs so the can offer patients cheaper health care?

therein for me lies the problem for me.people who have paid for the tr at ryr recently,why would such crap terms attract you?because of the prospect of it leading to something better.well we have already established it wont,this is clearly destroying and downgrading our profession.i now earn not alot more than a tube drive as a pilot with large uk jet operator, no disrespect to tube drivers but it took me along time to qualify.why, because there is a shed load of cheap labour,who are not only cheap but will also pay to sit in my seat.

i think the real reason why people are attract to pay to fly is very shallow indeed,the reason people accept these terms is due to two things.firstly immaturity 18-25 and their mates think its 'cool' and the second is a complete lack of perspective on the bigger picture.

we have established why they can afford it,mummy and daddy are delighted because their little jonny is a pilot,never mind the fact they are a 100k down paying for it, and he has a job where he has zero benefits

its interesting hearing those who say they are now working for ryr,this is the central issue,you do not work for ryanair.you are temporary agency staff.thats all.temporary agency staff....35k for this.you invest 70k in getting a licence and then 35k to destroy the career you chose to enter.great

so all i have is one question, what do you think the career of a pilot will be like in 5 years time due to pay to fly?infact it it could be a new thread!

p.s.by the way im not just slagging off ryr,this is across the board,very few airline dont not indulge in this disgusting exploitation of the naive.

Last edited by blackred1443; 25th Oct 2009 at 14:23.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 15:17
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Ei-flyer, thanks for your valid contribution. That kind of post needs deleting. Absolutely pointless, wanton aggression.

Dick Byrne you aren't qualified to comment. You can not judge something until it has happened. Your family members careers are happening by the sounds of it, and have not happened.

I can offer an opinion and an educated guess as to what may happen and my guess is that it wont be pretty for you guys and girls at Ryanair.

Blackred again offers a long, explained response as opposed to the short, sharp, ignorant, rude, vitriolic, spoilt, nose out of joint, chip on the shoulder responses offered by the pay to fly brigade. You are all so weak you are last week.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 15:30
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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I know you are but what am I?

According to Ei Flyer you are no better. Welcome to the club.

I am really surprised that you would say that. I think you'll find if you compare the number of posters rather than the number of posts you'll find the majority sit somewhere more towards my side.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 15:52
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Do some of you people ever stop squabbling, name calling, and back biting, long enough to actually listen, concern yourself with the issues in the topic, or even the issues generally? It is like listening to teenagers bickering.

Who cares what you pay for, how much your folks help out, or how nasty the new captains of industry are percieved to be? You are an adult (in some cases,) and the onus is now on you to be intelligent enough to do your own research to satisy your own requirements.

The idea that you pay a "vanity publishing" company a sizeable sum of money to print a box full of books in order than you can call yourself an author is fine. However that doesn't mean that those books are any better than they would have been had you not paid, nor does it mean you are now a commercial author. However that doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make the vanity publishing company a bad organisation, and who cares where you get the money from, other than you and the person who might lend it to you!

The problem is the belief that this type of industry will provide a realistic living for you. There seems to be a large section of people who believe that if they pay to buy their way in, something will then happen that changes the new reality into the old reality? At best it is the idea that you can run to stay ahead of the incoming tide. At worst it is a perception that the rules of the game will all be changed to simply embrace you at a convenient point in time.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what you decide. If you want to pay for a "job" do it. If you are seduced by marketing, then that is great news for the marketeers. If you believe reality will morph to suit your own circumstances, then so be it. The whole point of offering any advice or observation, is that you have another tool and perspective to better enable you to plan and adapt. Use it or ignore it as you wish. However some of this childish banter is truly pointless and completely at odds with the qualities that anybody will ever consider for a position in this section of this industry. I mean left unchecked you would have pilots flying past their destination as they were too involved in heated discussions to prioritise their responsibilities.

In summary, do whatever you please, it is your life. However open your eyes before you step out into the unknown. Most importantly, you are now over 18, grow up.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 16:04
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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dear dick byrne

whats a sciolist?i presume you mean socialist?i fail to see how please explain?or are you employing im from sciolo!?

i dont know alot about ryr, but i do know a certain amount as i briefly enquired about working for them once.you said a family members earns 3 - 5k per month for the last 18 months.so they paid 35k to join, lets use 4k as an average 4 times 18 equals 72.so when you take out the 35k they paid for the job we are left with 37k over 18 months which roughly means they are being paid 24k a year gross approx.to me this is not something to be particularly proud of,maybe im wrong?thats assuming that no interest on the 35k of course.then pay loss of licence insurance,uniform,recurrent sim,pension, health insurance,union subs...or no wait your not alowed join one of those,saved money there!.pay for your own food at work,teabags,lets not forget a little tax too,maybe some income protection insurance as going sick isnt an option at ryr,no sick pay.great deal isnt it.why do ryr do this because if this individual doesnt accept someone else will,see what i mean now about the whole cheap labour and lots to replace you.not really bullshit is it.this person isnt being replaced as such....why beacuse he accepts appauling terms.

the keep your head down reference please expand.i think you mean act like the model prisoner and dont rock the boat.are you a pilot,do you have much direct experience of the industry.why should a highly trained professional have to keep his head down in such a safety dependent industry....what ryrs approach to crew going fatigued.ummmm let me think oh ya,you dont get paid.or when your ill and dont feel up to work but you need the days pay you cant go sick why....you dont get paid.is this the head down stuff you refer to.this head down crap is just that.dangerous scarmongering nonsense.there had being lots of serious accidents and lives lost due to f/os keeping their heads down,or crews unwilling to rock the boat, try klm 747 in the canaries for a start.

but thanks for giving us a financial insight and proving my point on the degradation of terms and conditions.

Last edited by blackred1443; 25th Oct 2009 at 16:18.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 16:15
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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I hear what you are saying about it being ones choice but it is important that people realise that it is ruinous to our long term careers and incredibly risky to their parents. You may be able to afford a Ferrari F430 spyder a year with your salary (if it weren't for all your 'appendicies') but the vast majority can not, the vast majority can not afford £1500 a month extra after tax should it all go wrong and the vast majority can not afford to lose £170K by the end of all the terms of all the debts. It is about risk management. It is about not taking advantage of our loved ones. I would do anything for my family. My family would do anything for me - even if it was to put £100K of flight training debt and £45K of TR debt and my living expenses throughout the process onto their home. The difference is I wouldn't take it. I am not an impatient, spoilt, self centred little turd. I have patience (to a certain extent). Let me make this clear, I am not saying this sitting in something akin to a cardboard box, I am not poor and my parents could very much afford to do this weak 'process' for me too. I would never in a billion years allow them to though. It is wrong, rude and dreadful. And you as a father and an airline pilot should use your respected opinion to strongly discourage it. I am not meaning to sound like one of the New Labour social controlling brigade who wont let you smoke inside, wont let you eat this and drink that, but this is just wrong. It shouldn't be a decision people are granted to make. It isn't an investment in anyones future other than the short term future of the airline. Some people just wont see the wood for the trees.

Blackred, from the bottom:

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 16:25
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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dear dick byrne

whats a sciolist?i presume you mean socialist?i fail to see how please explain?or are you employing im from sciolo!?

If you could be bothered to scroll down to the bottom of every single page, you would see the definition set out for you. In my previous reply I highlighted the point about people opening their eyes, I rest that aspect of the case.

Perhaps the real question should be, what is a capital letter? How does the construction of a sentence make your message better understood and readable? How is punctuation properly employed? I am not trying to become the grammar police, but in a topic where you are arguing about professionalism and communication, it is self defeating when your message reads as if it were written by a badly educated school boy.

This isn't intended to be simply a "dig" at you, but in order to make the point that, communication, observation, attitude, maturity, thoughtfulness, adaptability, flexibility, skill and care, are all vital ingredients for success in this industry at this level. Taking a little time to read and then think, rather than simply react, is not only good training, but would move this discussion forward significantly.

Beak, if you go back and read my reply at post number 149, it save me having to repeat most of it. I am not encouraging anybody to be financially reckless, indeed far from it. However I have no particular problem with anybody who chooses that course of action. As long as they are adults, they are responsible for that aspect of their lives. There is advice and information on offer, if people decide to ignore it that is a matter for themselves.

Last edited by Bealzebub; 25th Oct 2009 at 16:35.
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