Eaglejet Airlines

[GBB]

BN,

The market has changed you say?
So tell me what would happen to the market if NOBODY would pay for such rubbish schemes? All the operators would go bust because there would be no pilots with TR and time on it?
Please give me a break.
The real reason is that there is too many kids and impatient people out there that want to fly big jets ONLY and fly it right after their training.
They simply dont want to wait, they wanna "jump the queue", take a shortcut, thinking that buying TR with some time on it is going to help them.
Other will do it because they simply suck in sim, have no people skills, and dont stand a chance at selection against others. (so they simply decide to pay more and "get ahead" in the game...
You said that if you have the money its ok... but didnt you have to work to get that money?
Please tell me, how many years is it going to take for somebody to get a return on 60-80K traning + the money they going to spend on TR and hours on it? (WITHOUT any job guarantee)
Imagine how much longer its going to take when you actually have to pay all this money to the bank.
Im sorry but people that sing up for these schemes simply need to get back to primary school to gain some knowledge on BASIC mathematics.
People that created these ATP schemes are simply bunch of liars that dont give a damn where you gonna end up once you part with your money, so dont be stupid and dont sing up for this rubbish, unless you are one of the people mentioned above and you will do it anyway.
What will come next? Companies telling you that their minimums are 1000-2000 on type and if you got your TR with 300h is ok, we will take you but you will have to work for free or pay them (doing revenue flights) till you get required time... ?
Some people need to grow a spine and some balls, otherwise you will simply be used and abused.

[Another Old Fogey]

Isn't it interesting that we've had GBB and Antonov back again heaping abuse on legitimate questions.

Gentlemen, we know your views - you don't have to repeat them ad nauseum. Particularly so when there are folks who are trying to get the benefit of other's experience and you come in with your bullying, insulting posts. Do you seriously believe that anybody will be changed because of your ranting?

Are you guys for real anyway - do you actually fly, or is this just a joke for you? If you do fly, why not give at least a hint in your Public Profiles of what you do and where you do it.

AOF

[F117A]

GBB

Could not have said it better myself .. Who thinks that a type rating and the odd 400hrs on type is enough to find a job.. think again.. Guys these companies are robbing you and the airlines are profiting from this. Has anybody had a look at the requirements lately and the type of contracts.. We need to have patience and these schemes are only making things worse for everybody. But my post and guys like me is not enough.. action somehow needs to be taken.. Like cutting all of these advertisments.

[The Mixmaster]

Agreed...I'm frankly amazed that pprune had a banner advert for ATP scheme recently, esp when you consider some of its moderator's views. Thats "business"...sigh

[antonov09]

Their a disgrace to aviation.

[BigNumber]

There is a good amount of passion in this debate.

But it is a debate; with 2 sides, BOTH voicing relevant supporting arguments.

To be clear, I am no fan of these schemes, however they are packaged and sold.

That said, a new blue licence has a finite 'shelf life'. Each month yet more licences are issued and more desperate wannabes join the job chase. 'Turn Key' crewing solutions are 'vogue' and agencies need minimum experience levels, to wit, the 'magical' 500hrs.

BMI will provide very high quality training to their 'paying guests', is it ridiculous to suggest that folks will be stronger pilots with their help than without it?

Anyone that retains the 'moral high ground' has my sincere respect; as do those that follow these schemes in an attempt to better their employment chances and skill set.

[jet.man123]

I hear some of the middle east outfits are now running with these schemes, it's an outrage, we should stone the management, burn the planes..or we could just evolve and hope the cost savings this gives airlines is sufficient to keep the industry alive and kicking, don't worry about the pay to fly guys, they will be on the payroll soon enough and that removes the problem! What would help is if the banks made funding available for more guys to do the schemes and the airlines guaranteed the loans.. or would that not be fair either?

[Another Old Fogey]

I agree with you, Big Number - I'm no fan of these schemes, BUT I am pragmatic - I'm a Yorkshireman so I know when to call a spade a spade!

Read my earlier posts - when I joined BOAC as a Cadet, I landed on easy street - but that was in the 1960's! Its very different now, so I really do think you have to change with the times and live in this world, not a nostalgic world that might/should exist (my wife accuses me of living in the past quite enough!).

In an ideal world, the airlines would re-instate Cadet programmes and train their own crews - but as I said in an earlier post, in this world the Accountants have taken over and that isn't likely to happen. (can you see MOL changing and respecting his pilots?)

So new entrants are faced with really only 3 options, at present - go to Ryanair, with all that entails, compete against "n" thousand other guys who have a shiny blue book and 0 jet time or pay for Line Training.

There is always a 4th option, of course - do nothing and sit on your bum, but with individuals as driven as pilots (you wouldn't get your ATPL G/S unless you were driven) many will not take the 4th option so they throw themselves at the other 3 options.

Each option is legitimate - it depends on your own circumstances. But I resent the rudeness of this Board and such that every time somebody voices an opinion that Option 3 may suit him, he gets howled down by the Antonovs and others. It is disrespectful to people seeking genuine help and assistance from fellow aviators.

When GL2651 posted yesterday, he was asking for help - I see no reason to heap abuse on him when its safe to assume he does know that there is a vocal group of folks who don't agree with his question - but there are also others who understand why he asks it and try to help.

As I've said, I have a personal interest in this issue as I have a friend doing the EJ scheme at present - hence, I check in on this Thread to see what is happening. This is why I post when I think there is excessive bullying of people who simply want to find out their options and make their own decisions - not have Mr. Antonov make them for him. Again, I repeat - I have nothing to do with EJ and am not a shill for them.

Fogey.

[antonov09]

Okay then "Mr Fogey" you tell me if this is right. I call in for work next week and my airline tells me that they dont have much work for me. I later find out that theres an EJ guy doing the routes Im doing because he is paying to sit where I get paid to sit. Imagine that happened to me. Would you lose any sleep over it? Doubt it. Would I lose sleep over it ? yes Would my kids lose sleep over it ? well yes because they might not be going on a holiday this year or they might not get all the things they would like to have. Would their mother lose sleep over it? Well yes she would because she might be wondering how shes going to pay everything on her own. These schemes have a knock effect on people who have got where they have got because they did it the honest way.Theses schemes treat jets like rollercoasters. This is serious business where people have to live and provide. Its not a game. Surely you can appreciate that.

Now you tell me "Mr Fogey" is it right ?

[GBB]

Fogey,

Call it whatever you wish to, but we all know the facts...
Times are hard for everyone right now, but some think they are "smarter" and can get ahead by paying to work.
You NEVER $hit where you eat, or would like to eat in the future!
Did some of you really believe that by spending 30, 40 or 50k more you going to do your self a favour???
Do you really think that any good airline give a damn about your TR + 300h?, no they DONT! Stop listening to all this BS from ATP schemes.
When I hear that such as Etihad, Fly Dubai and others are going to interview them beacuse the ATP got connection, I really dont know if I should laugh at people that believe them or maybe cry for them.
Have some self respect and dignity!

[LH2]

Do you really think that any good airline give a damn about your TR + 300h?, no they DONT!

Which is why you can expect people to slam yet another 30K on the table for 300 more hours?

Got to admire whoever came up with this idea

(Mind you, they probably copied it from F-1.)

[antonov09]

16AoA

I have been pulled up on spelling before. I think we LOSE sleep dont we? You are a little mixed up on the spelling of LOOSE and LOSE are you?

I am not the only one on this thread that feels the same. I would argue that the majority of this thread agree with GBB and myself about this nonsense. So I would argue why dont you get off this thread if you cant put some substance into a perfectly legitamate debate. But yet I think to myself how could you after that last post?

[antonov09]

With all due respect you sound like the "wannabe". Im not your "mate". And I dont have any "mates" on this forum. They are just posters that have the same view as me. I would suggest perhaps you argue with Evian about the price of bottled water . Because the argument you put forward to me and all other posters has about as much substance.

[Penguin68]

To the junior Scargillites on here foaming at the mouth about PFT/PFJ ... as John Lydon put it: "unlucky you ... well boo hoo". Your demeanor is unlikely to help you get or keep ANY professional job. The game has changed. You didn't see it coming before you borrowed 80-100k to become a 200 hour wonder? - oh well you now have a nice shiny financial darwin award on the mantlepiece to show what great judgement you have. Perhaps you were handicapped by being educated in the GCSE era. You have done nothing that gives you the RIGHT to a job and if someone else can out-compete you for the job you want that's just too bad. Want to bleat about getting the job on merit? What leads you to assume you are a better pilot than people who paid for a TR+500 deal? - you know NOTHING about them.

When the dust settles on this economic clusterf*ck PFT/PFJ will be the only show in town - and you can bet that Eireflot's PFT/SSTR will become PFJ - you think O'Leary won't do that ... or that SleazyJet and others won't follow? There will only be 3 ways to get in:

1. Join the RAF - the sensible route. Would they take you little Scargills? - no chance unless its to test a forward airstrip for landmines the hard way.

2. Be a Tarquin/Araminta ... i.e. daddy has a bottomless wallet to fund your training and PFJ and/or golfs/sails with Willie Walsh/The Bearded One

3. Do something else until you have a cash pile big enough to fund training AND get 1000+ hours via PFJ or just rent a Seminole for however many months it takes to get them. And when you finally get there be prepared to live with the fact that the T&C are no better than a train driver's because there are plenty of other would-be career changers like you so supply exceeds demand in the new, smaller airline industry.

Meanwhile lots of late-noughties vintage low-hour wonders will be washing cars or working at Mickey D's with lapsed qualifications and bankruptcy looming. They have 40 years left to work on another career. To those in that situation who don't come here and rant, I feel genuinely sorry for you. To the Scargillites ... ha ha bl**dy ha

[I'm Off!]

Pay to fly schemes = a cancer on the arse of professional aviation.

End of.

[Mister Geezer]

I heard a British accent using a Royal Air Maroc callsign today at Tripoli. I just felt sorry for the poor bugger who has spent all that money and it will probably achieve very little in these tough times that we are in. Why oh why oh why......

[MCP]

Well, RAM might be explained by extensive use of adhoc wetlease solutions. I've personally done MAK-ORY-MAK several times over the last months and I'am definately not in a pay scheme..

[RoyHudd]

Nopey, dopey.

RAM have a number of pay-to-work parasites at the sharp end of their a/c. Rather worrying from a number of perspectives, safety included, and more than worrying from an ethical standpoint. I do hope these silly folk paying to do another's job find no gainful employment in the future. I suspect they will not, as interviews will expose these people. There is a great deal of antipathy towards pay-to-work pilots when it comes to recruitment for a permanent job, even among those senior bods who will happily use the same people to keep their budgets low in tough economic times.

[mikehammer]

Mr Hudd,

Much as I wish you were right, it seems apparent that two of the major airline employers in the UK, namely Ryan and Easy, are focussed on pay-to-fly "parasites", as you put it. A quick read of the Easyjet Holding Pool thread on Terms and Endearment reveals an insiders viewpoint. This viewpoint is that in the recent past Easy have sought to replace leaving pilots with "dirt cheap" (I quote the poster Norman Stanley Fletcher, an astute chap at the best of times) cadets, and those who have self funded 150 hours with Easy.

The opinion is that the short term future will hold similar policy for pilot recruitment. We all already know that a semi experienced pilot, with say 1300 hours turbo prop time, has no place at Ryanair. Why hire him when they can make money (sorry, cover their own sim costs) out of a 200 hour cadet?

In short, although your opinion that the pay-to-fly brigade will be held in low esteem holds some weight, and there will be certain quarters who always will think so, it seems to me that given 5 years these low hours cheap to hire guys are going to be everywhere, and some of them may even have a decent number of FO hours under their belt having done a few seasons with Easy, been laid off over the winter, then picked up for another season next year. Less discriminatory airlines will surely be tempted to take them on, if there is a need. They'll be rated, trained (not arguing to which standard), and ready to go.

I am not arguing that this is a good thing, not at all. Self interest dictates this to me as a bad thing. I am the aforementioned turbo prop pilot with approaching 1500 hours. I am passed over by the only holiday jet operator employers in the UK currently taking at this time, in favour of 200 hr fresh pilots who haven't put in the time slogging it in the bottom feeder end of aviation like I have. I don't like it one little bit but that's the way it is, or the way I see that it is at any rate.

[Kirks gusset]

This is the way of the world now..before, in gin palace days we were "bonded" maybe for 3 years..but it didn't seem to matter as we were not planning on jumping ship.. that was a NO NO, even the companies you might have been going to took a dim view of it for obvious reasons... Now, they have to "pay in advance" .. is this a reflection on the market, the companies, or from a lesson learnt in the past? Well, it doesn't matter because we can't change it! So when you see an ad for "type rated/ non type rated 777 Cpts and FOs" are you going to bin it if you want a job..Of course not,,Why? because there is no alternative, and probably won't be. I am in Europe as I type! and the company is having a major restructure as part of an investment, and guess what.. Reduce the price per cockpit and offer jobs to those willing to pay for ratings is in the agenda, curiously across all the fleet types, we knew it would happen on the feeders but didn't expect it on the long haul.. C'est la vie! chaps Quelle Damage