Thank You ATP!
Seriously, if anyone knows of any UK crop-spraying job but considers it beneath them...
Sorry for the complete thread creep here, but why do the "go modular" brigade seem to assume that these GA jobs are so easy to come by? When I went through my training there were far more jobs going on passenger jets than there were dropping parachutes or taking aerial photography!
I'm going to sound like a broken record here
Back on topic... Kangy, well done on getting your job, whether it's a summer contract or a permanent position (I suspect the former if it's UK based, but I don't know). Why the public gushing praise and a*se-kissing though? So you got a job - the course therefore did for you what it advertised. You don't see grads of other schools coming on here worshipping their FTO CEOs as heroes just because their courses did what they said on the tin... what makes this one so special?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 28°12′N 177°21′W
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zippy,
this isn't even a thread where one can "get back on topic". It was a nonsensical post saying "thank you!" Who cares? Its like coming on pprune and saying "I passed Gen Nav - thanks BGS". Who cares? - hence why I thought it was a spam-mail post.
However this post did go on tangents depending on who posted a reply.
Now its obvious that you have the blinkers on because you are reading what you want to read and not taking the general point of my posts and others who are appalled at the state of what is happening to the industry.
If there were more airline jobs than GA jobs when you were training is neither here nor there. The point is there are no jobs at at present for 250hr cadets! Unless you buy a job!
I sincerely hope you are not a pilot in an airline that has/will adopt a scheme where you will get the boot because someone behind you will accept a lower hourly rate than you. I really mean that.
this isn't even a thread where one can "get back on topic". It was a nonsensical post saying "thank you!" Who cares? Its like coming on pprune and saying "I passed Gen Nav - thanks BGS". Who cares? - hence why I thought it was a spam-mail post.
However this post did go on tangents depending on who posted a reply.
Now its obvious that you have the blinkers on because you are reading what you want to read and not taking the general point of my posts and others who are appalled at the state of what is happening to the industry.
If there were more airline jobs than GA jobs when you were training is neither here nor there. The point is there are no jobs at at present for 250hr cadets! Unless you buy a job!
I sincerely hope you are not a pilot in an airline that has/will adopt a scheme where you will get the boot because someone behind you will accept a lower hourly rate than you. I really mean that.
Educated Hillbilly
Off the original thread, but aerial crop spraying in the UK was closed off by the environmental lobby, use to be a big crop spary scene in East Anglia in the seventies and eighties.
Secondly crop spraying is a high risk GA activity and most crop spray firms cannot insure anyone with less than a 1000 hours, therefore it is not a option of a low hour pilot to hour build.
Secondly crop spraying is a high risk GA activity and most crop spray firms cannot insure anyone with less than a 1000 hours, therefore it is not a option of a low hour pilot to hour build.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 28°12′N 177°21′W
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets not get hung up on the Crop spaying example please
. I used that as a loose GA job. I could have chosen flying in africa, towing gliders, or whatever.
It was just emphasising a point that one should not be embarassed starting right at the bottom - an aviation job that isn't really going to get you laid with the tart at the bar which some people seem to care about.
That way, airlines wouldn't be inundated with 250hr cadets happy to give them 30K.
. I used that as a loose GA job. I could have chosen flying in africa, towing gliders, or whatever.It was just emphasising a point that one should not be embarassed starting right at the bottom - an aviation job that isn't really going to get you laid with the tart at the bar which some people seem to care about.
That way, airlines wouldn't be inundated with 250hr cadets happy to give them 30K.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have to say BSMuppet, I actually agree with the general jist of the point [I think] you're trying to make here. Nothing wrong with starting at the bottom at all.
My only caveat is that there's an awful lot of dreamers out there [not to say you're one, btw...talking generically!] who make comments such as "I don't care about salary, I just want to fly". Which is all well and good, except that at some point every job (IIRC, you're a professional footballer?) becomes "just a job" - even if you accept you're bloody lucky to have that "just a job" and hundreds of others would kill for it. And when you hit this point, then you do care - you care very greatly - about the money. And £15k a year (as a PPL Instructor) isn't going to buy you any kind of roof these days. It's not going to buy you a car worth mentioning. It's not going to buy you a nice holiday....So THERE is the "rush" to the jet jobs. Because that's where the money is. It's not always all about loan repayments, it's about having ANY kind of lifestyle, which sadly, GA flying generally won't provide.
FWIW, totally agree on the "work for a couple of years" point. I think the industry would be far better off if more people did this.
I don't agree with "buying a job" line training schemes....but I won't criticise anyone for taking the opportunities open to them to advance themselves...
My only caveat is that there's an awful lot of dreamers out there [not to say you're one, btw...talking generically!] who make comments such as "I don't care about salary, I just want to fly". Which is all well and good, except that at some point every job (IIRC, you're a professional footballer?) becomes "just a job" - even if you accept you're bloody lucky to have that "just a job" and hundreds of others would kill for it. And when you hit this point, then you do care - you care very greatly - about the money. And £15k a year (as a PPL Instructor) isn't going to buy you any kind of roof these days. It's not going to buy you a car worth mentioning. It's not going to buy you a nice holiday....So THERE is the "rush" to the jet jobs. Because that's where the money is. It's not always all about loan repayments, it's about having ANY kind of lifestyle, which sadly, GA flying generally won't provide.
FWIW, totally agree on the "work for a couple of years" point. I think the industry would be far better off if more people did this.
I don't agree with "buying a job" line training schemes....but I won't criticise anyone for taking the opportunities open to them to advance themselves...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C'mon Kangy - leave the spin at the TRTO and tell it how it is.
Assumption number one:
Since you refuse to let on to what type of contract you have, I'll assume it is a 6 month temp like all of the other ATP 'grads'.
Assumption number two:
It costs around £35,000 for the course.
With these in mind it is not difficult for the average person to see the course for what it is; a pay to fly scheme.
When you consider an A320 TR should cost you at worst £20,000 to £25,000, you have paid over £10k for the pleasure of your temp contract.
Even if the numbers are not quite right, they will not be a million miles away.
Now, for me the crux of the matter is this; if you set out to acheive this from the begining and were clearly told that this was the aim of the scheme then fine. Congratulations - you have every right to be happy.
If you thought you'd be on a 'proper' contract earning circa £30,000 per annum (roughly the going rate) then you will be very disappointed.
What I am uneasy with is your limitless and lavish praise for getting the very least one would expect from such a large outlay. I also think that you have tried to let on that you have got a better deal than you actually did. You refuse to give any details about your contract, employer, salary or conditions of employment. This arouses suspicions on all sorts of levels and gives desperate wannabes a very unbalanced view of this sort of scheme. Not cool. There is nothing wrong with telling it how it is.
It is ridiculous to blame you for the state of the piloting profession. You are doing what you think is best for yourself. If you paid your money and got what you wanted then good luck. Just don't try and spin/brown nose yourself into a permanent contract. You are fooling nobody.
You get what you pay for.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
You don't get 'owt for nowt.
Etc etc....
Enjoy your flying.
EK
Assumption number one:
Since you refuse to let on to what type of contract you have, I'll assume it is a 6 month temp like all of the other ATP 'grads'.
Assumption number two:
It costs around £35,000 for the course.
With these in mind it is not difficult for the average person to see the course for what it is; a pay to fly scheme.
When you consider an A320 TR should cost you at worst £20,000 to £25,000, you have paid over £10k for the pleasure of your temp contract.
Even if the numbers are not quite right, they will not be a million miles away.
Now, for me the crux of the matter is this; if you set out to acheive this from the begining and were clearly told that this was the aim of the scheme then fine. Congratulations - you have every right to be happy.
If you thought you'd be on a 'proper' contract earning circa £30,000 per annum (roughly the going rate) then you will be very disappointed.
What I am uneasy with is your limitless and lavish praise for getting the very least one would expect from such a large outlay. I also think that you have tried to let on that you have got a better deal than you actually did. You refuse to give any details about your contract, employer, salary or conditions of employment. This arouses suspicions on all sorts of levels and gives desperate wannabes a very unbalanced view of this sort of scheme. Not cool. There is nothing wrong with telling it how it is.
It is ridiculous to blame you for the state of the piloting profession. You are doing what you think is best for yourself. If you paid your money and got what you wanted then good luck. Just don't try and spin/brown nose yourself into a permanent contract. You are fooling nobody.
You get what you pay for.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
You don't get 'owt for nowt.
Etc etc....
Enjoy your flying.
EK
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You get what you pay for.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
You don't get 'owt for nowt.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
You don't get 'owt for nowt.
"They get what you pay for?"
"You pays your money they makes your choice"
"They get a lot for nowt."
Seriously, separating the TR from the line training, I suspect the reality is that one way or another all zero experience CPL/IRs pay for their TR, just not necessarily up front. Personally I have no real issues with that, especially considering how much it must have cost under the old JAA self improver path. For me the issue is paying for line training.
People shouldn't justify paying to perform revenue earning work, that's what it is. Cue Monty Python!
Saying that, if I were desperate enough...who knows.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 23rd Apr 2009 at 01:05.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: London
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
suspect the reality is that one way or another all zero experience CPL/IRs pay for their TR
In early 2011 the airline that i work for that has never employed low hours guys will lauch a scheme on the above premise.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uk
Age: 46
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Kangy well done mate 
.
Having known this guy for years he completely deserves a break and will be a total asset for the industry
Like so many modular wannabes we had been over looked by recruiters for years, because we did not attend a 70k one stop training provider. Instead as like many other modular guys and girls we earnt as we gained the licences, rather than mummy and daddy paying (accepted not all integrated have a silver spoon in their mouth). And we built life experience and interpersonal skills by having jobs to pay for the FATPL.
The total spend for me was approx 70k all license issues, 73 type with 357hrs on type. Now I have a full time position in the uk earning 42k plus perdiems and sector pay. Both kangy and I spent years getting to this position, working hard to achieve our goals.
Bsmuppet it is cheaper to hour build in a 320/73 than a GA aircraft, including typrating and line flying it breaks down to about £100 an hour depending which route you go down. And far more relevant to the career you are trying to get in to, than flying around in a 152. ( I spent a summer doing aerial photography with close to 500hrs still no interview 2005). It was a no brainer type rating equaled interviews.
OK time for some controversy... soon it is my prediction the only way you will get to an airline is with an MPL as a wanabe...
Discuss
.Having known this guy for years he completely deserves a break and will be a total asset for the industry
Like so many modular wannabes we had been over looked by recruiters for years, because we did not attend a 70k one stop training provider. Instead as like many other modular guys and girls we earnt as we gained the licences, rather than mummy and daddy paying (accepted not all integrated have a silver spoon in their mouth). And we built life experience and interpersonal skills by having jobs to pay for the FATPL.
The total spend for me was approx 70k all license issues, 73 type with 357hrs on type. Now I have a full time position in the uk earning 42k plus perdiems and sector pay. Both kangy and I spent years getting to this position, working hard to achieve our goals.
Bsmuppet it is cheaper to hour build in a 320/73 than a GA aircraft, including typrating and line flying it breaks down to about £100 an hour depending which route you go down. And far more relevant to the career you are trying to get in to, than flying around in a 152. ( I spent a summer doing aerial photography with close to 500hrs still no interview 2005). It was a no brainer type rating equaled interviews.
OK time for some controversy... soon it is my prediction the only way you will get to an airline is with an MPL as a wanabe...
Discuss
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 28°12′N 177°21′W
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
soon it is my prediction the only way you will get to an airline is with an MPL as a wanabe
Sure lets discuss.
People will embark on an MPL if it is attached to a job at the end of it (as we all know the limitation of the MPL is airline SOP specific). Flybe have started the ball rolling with 4/6 cadets on the first MPL course in the UK. I believe they have started the second as well - the selection stage that is.
"Soon" is a very long way of the mark. Can't really see many airlines investing money in a "mentorship/sponsorship" scheme with the current crisis and with 1000s of fully qualified pilots flipping burgers.
Can you imagine M'OL starting up an MPL scheme with an FTO (I.e Ryanair/FTE) and giving 20K to 400 cadets per year! -thats £8m! Remember there needs to be that guarantee of a job or no one would embark on an MPL! You'd be foolish to.
Sure lets discuss.
People will embark on an MPL if it is attached to a job at the end of it (as we all know the limitation of the MPL is airline SOP specific). Flybe have started the ball rolling with 4/6 cadets on the first MPL course in the UK. I believe they have started the second as well - the selection stage that is.
"Soon" is a very long way of the mark. Can't really see many airlines investing money in a "mentorship/sponsorship" scheme with the current crisis and with 1000s of fully qualified pilots flipping burgers.
Can you imagine M'OL starting up an MPL scheme with an FTO (I.e Ryanair/FTE) and giving 20K to 400 cadets per year! -thats £8m! Remember there needs to be that guarantee of a job or no one would embark on an MPL! You'd be foolish to.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bsmuppet it is cheaper to hour build in a 320/73 than a GA aircraft,
