who hire 0 hour pilot on the A320?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just re-read it.
It still clearly states that treating airline pilots like part time shelf stackers is a good thing for us all.
It also clearly states that (paradoxically) you should be happy that your emploment contract is virtually worthless becuse you are then forced to get a second job in order to live which gives you, err,
Also, true to form with today's society, it is all sombody else's fault that we are in this situation;
A quite staggering perspective.
Like I say, I hope that you mean somthine else and that I got the wrong end of the stick.
To be clear, the idea of a bad economy giving us bad Ts&Cs during a recession is nothing new. But, to actively encourage and endorse the exploitation by some (read EZY/FR) airlines is barking mad.
Me thinks you have made your mind up and have past the point of no return. It's much nicer to convice yourself that all of this is fantastic, unaviodable and not your fault than to face the reality. The reality is that the situation is dire and pretty much any flying job available now is virtually subsidised work experience.
Read up on confirmation bais again.
Helmet on.....
It still clearly states that treating airline pilots like part time shelf stackers is a good thing for us all.
It also clearly states that (paradoxically) you should be happy that your emploment contract is virtually worthless becuse you are then forced to get a second job in order to live which gives you, err,
added protection
Lets face it. We all have this fantastical view about this career. It's not our fault, years of brainwashing by a previous generation is at fault.
Like I say, I hope that you mean somthine else and that I got the wrong end of the stick.
To be clear, the idea of a bad economy giving us bad Ts&Cs during a recession is nothing new. But, to actively encourage and endorse the exploitation by some (read EZY/FR) airlines is barking mad.
Me thinks you have made your mind up and have past the point of no return. It's much nicer to convice yourself that all of this is fantastic, unaviodable and not your fault than to face the reality. The reality is that the situation is dire and pretty much any flying job available now is virtually subsidised work experience.
Read up on confirmation bais again.
Helmet on.....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Qatar
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
last year, I got some offers(maybe 2 or 3). All of them I had to pay for line training+ hours on type.
Knowing I would have to pay again after leaving the company , I didn't really see the point to pay for a new company.
Not only this, they asked me to pay for at least 300 hours plus pay for VAT. total around 30'000$+ food+ accommodation+ transport,....
guys who have accepted this ****ty offers, had to leave the company a few months later due to new indian rules and some I believe lost their money
.
they are still in the same situation as me with a few hundred hours on the 320, except I will cost less to hire...
Knowing I would have to pay again after leaving the company , I didn't really see the point to pay for a new company.
Not only this, they asked me to pay for at least 300 hours plus pay for VAT. total around 30'000$+ food+ accommodation+ transport,....
guys who have accepted this ****ty offers, had to leave the company a few months later due to new indian rules and some I believe lost their money
.they are still in the same situation as me with a few hundred hours on the 320, except I will cost less to hire...
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK,
I really don't know how to respond to you. I really do feel you've got the wrong end of it. If you knew me and my views like some people here on PPrUNe you would agree I am actually one of the more wiser and sensible wannabes here who places pay, terms and conditions above else all in aviation. I have often been the instigator of many a thread which aims to expose the deterioration of terms for new pilots. As a wannabe I have met a thousand people who are more than happy to work for free or at a reduced salary so they can get that vital experience. I say no, I say bull**** to all of the above, as a result, I sit here waiting for a miracle to take place. That's the way I choose to do it. Luck will come my way even if it takes another 10 years, I can wait.
I was simply stating that EZs use of CTC Flexicrew makes good business sense, and must be respected as a good business decision. Of course its terrible for the industry in general. But the reality is the industry and airlines do not owe us anything (like everyone keeps saying). My comparision of EZ to the likes of Tesco and Sainsburys was made to show you what measures companies are willing to take to return the highest level of profit. That's all bud.
I really don't know how to respond to you. I really do feel you've got the wrong end of it. If you knew me and my views like some people here on PPrUNe you would agree I am actually one of the more wiser and sensible wannabes here who places pay, terms and conditions above else all in aviation. I have often been the instigator of many a thread which aims to expose the deterioration of terms for new pilots. As a wannabe I have met a thousand people who are more than happy to work for free or at a reduced salary so they can get that vital experience. I say no, I say bull**** to all of the above, as a result, I sit here waiting for a miracle to take place. That's the way I choose to do it. Luck will come my way even if it takes another 10 years, I can wait.
I was simply stating that EZs use of CTC Flexicrew makes good business sense, and must be respected as a good business decision. Of course its terrible for the industry in general. But the reality is the industry and airlines do not owe us anything (like everyone keeps saying). My comparision of EZ to the likes of Tesco and Sainsburys was made to show you what measures companies are willing to take to return the highest level of profit. That's all bud.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: 112 Ocean Avenue, 11701
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again and again and again.....
EU is working on this major problem.
Today experienced pilots are grounded BECAUSE of Self Sponsor Programs and all this crap... It always been impossible to find a job with 200tt during an industry downturn period except if you are willing to give your cash to the pimps. I have been in this situation before but I have never paid 1 cent to get a job!
So please, take 5 minutes of your day and report it to the EU (link). This corruption has to stop!
Vladimír ?pidla - EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities
Today experienced pilots are grounded BECAUSE of Self Sponsor Programs and all this crap... It always been impossible to find a job with 200tt during an industry downturn period except if you are willing to give your cash to the pimps. I have been in this situation before but I have never paid 1 cent to get a job!
So please, take 5 minutes of your day and report it to the EU (link). This corruption has to stop!
Vladimír ?pidla - EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Superpilot,
I said I hope I got you wrong and it looks like I did. Phew!
I apologise. Also, looking back, my post was probably a little OTT.
Like you, I can understand an airline taking the piss for all it can. I can't understand for the life of me why pilots think it's a good idea and I get a bit irate at the Lemming over a cliff attitude shown by some young wannabe top guns.
Good luck in your quest for the company funded TR!
EK
I said I hope I got you wrong and it looks like I did. Phew!
I apologise. Also, looking back, my post was probably a little OTT.
Like you, I can understand an airline taking the piss for all it can. I can't understand for the life of me why pilots think it's a good idea and I get a bit irate at the Lemming over a cliff attitude shown by some young wannabe top guns.
Good luck in your quest for the company funded TR!
EK
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually I am type rated. Done a SSTR, got it cheap, had the time and the money so did it. When you do the maths, you realise that a new pilot always ends up paying for a rating one way or another (reduced salary, bond, paying upfront all the same thing). It's the next step (paying for line hours) that I, like most, abhorr.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is everyone so fixated on a Jet job?
Use the situation to your advantage.
Example,
Pilot A goes to a non-jet operator, seen as 'second' best to all the other airlines, due to this, they have to pay for peoples type ratings to get pilots through the door. Pilot A gets a free type rating spends 2-3 years flying the line, gaining hours which he is PAID FOR (albeit not the 6 figure sums all pilots ultimately aim for) then moves on as an experienced pilot and gets another free type rating on a shiney jet.
Pilot B goes to a Jet operator, seen as a great company because they fly big shiney jets
However because the airline knows this they exploit it and He/she has to fork out another 20k to get the job, then has to pay more £££ for line training, uniform, food, accomodation......once he/she is type rated gets offered a 'pay as you fly' contract position. A few months down the line the hours dry up because there are more Pilot B's behind him doing exactly the same thing and he/she's fantastic Jet pay is the same as the Pilot A's second best turboprop pay. On top of that Pilot B is then ordered to be based somewhere else at his own expense.... and after doing this cycle for 2/3 years he is in the same position as Pilot A but with 20k more debt to his name!
This is from personal experiance, and will no doubt fall on deaf ears
Use the situation to your advantage.
Example,
Pilot A goes to a non-jet operator, seen as 'second' best to all the other airlines, due to this, they have to pay for peoples type ratings to get pilots through the door. Pilot A gets a free type rating spends 2-3 years flying the line, gaining hours which he is PAID FOR (albeit not the 6 figure sums all pilots ultimately aim for) then moves on as an experienced pilot and gets another free type rating on a shiney jet.
Pilot B goes to a Jet operator, seen as a great company because they fly big shiney jets
However because the airline knows this they exploit it and He/she has to fork out another 20k to get the job, then has to pay more £££ for line training, uniform, food, accomodation......once he/she is type rated gets offered a 'pay as you fly' contract position. A few months down the line the hours dry up because there are more Pilot B's behind him doing exactly the same thing and he/she's fantastic Jet pay is the same as the Pilot A's second best turboprop pay. On top of that Pilot B is then ordered to be based somewhere else at his own expense.... and after doing this cycle for 2/3 years he is in the same position as Pilot A but with 20k more debt to his name!This is from personal experiance, and will no doubt fall on deaf ears
Last edited by FlyingTinCans; 9th Apr 2009 at 11:17. Reason: My terrible spelling!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 28°12′N 177°21′W
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is cool,
I'll be honest with you. The ultimate dream is to have that nice pilot uniform and fly a 744.
But before then, surely flying non jets is what makes flying fun! Whilst I would not say no to a RHS in a 737 or A320, I really can't think of anything as boring during my first few years.
Pilot A sounds good to me! Out of interest what was your salary on the non-jet
I'll be honest with you. The ultimate dream is to have that nice pilot uniform and fly a 744.
But before then, surely flying non jets is what makes flying fun! Whilst I would not say no to a RHS in a 737 or A320, I really can't think of anything as boring during my first few years.
Pilot A sounds good to me! Out of interest what was your salary on the non-jet
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genius!
Baldrick from Blackadder springs to mind;
Unfortunately the reality is that there are no TP operators who are recruiting right now in order for you to hatch this masterplan.
It's the same logic that the 'masters of the universe' followed with sub prime mortgates. Basically, they thought if you give really dodgy loans to poor people who can't pay them back, put it though a complex equation, mix it with some good debt and, hey presto, it becomes good debt. Just like that, Tommy Cooper syle.
Of course, back on planet earth, if you give a poor person a very risk loan which they can't afford, then it will stay like that no matter what. And so we have the worst downturn for 60 years.
My longwinded point is that, no matter how good your idea is, if no airlines are recruiting you can't get a job. And no airlines are recruiting. So you can't get a job.
Once airlines start recruiting again, TP pilots tend to move onto jets and wannabes tend to go to the TP positions. Nothing new, in fact it's a well trodden path.
Try sending your CV off to a TP operator if you don't believe me.
And another thing, you will find that most TP operators charge for the initial TR too. In fact, I can only think of flyBE who don't off the top of my head - although there will be more.
EK
Baldrick from Blackadder springs to mind;
I have a cunning plan!
It's the same logic that the 'masters of the universe' followed with sub prime mortgates. Basically, they thought if you give really dodgy loans to poor people who can't pay them back, put it though a complex equation, mix it with some good debt and, hey presto, it becomes good debt. Just like that, Tommy Cooper syle.
Of course, back on planet earth, if you give a poor person a very risk loan which they can't afford, then it will stay like that no matter what. And so we have the worst downturn for 60 years.
My longwinded point is that, no matter how good your idea is, if no airlines are recruiting you can't get a job. And no airlines are recruiting. So you can't get a job.
Once airlines start recruiting again, TP pilots tend to move onto jets and wannabes tend to go to the TP positions. Nothing new, in fact it's a well trodden path.
Try sending your CV off to a TP operator if you don't believe me.
And another thing, you will find that most TP operators charge for the initial TR too. In fact, I can only think of flyBE who don't off the top of my head - although there will be more.
EK
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Qatar
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
right, I looked for jobs on the 320. they don't hire anymore, even for captain position.
no need to look for a jet job actually.
so I decided to keep my license current (valid for 5 years), and do something else.
if some are lucky and have a job and are ready to be in debt for years (or forever), good luck to you, but in my point of view, no banks will give you money for aviation anymore.
you may get 20'000-30'000 euro for an unsecured loan, but it won't cover cpl, or type rating+food, accomodation, transport.
if you bet the house of you parents, what would you say to them when they will be kicked out because you screwed their life?
no need to look for a jet job actually.
so I decided to keep my license current (valid for 5 years), and do something else.
if some are lucky and have a job and are ready to be in debt for years (or forever), good luck to you, but in my point of view, no banks will give you money for aviation anymore.
you may get 20'000-30'000 euro for an unsecured loan, but it won't cover cpl, or type rating+food, accomodation, transport.
if you bet the house of you parents, what would you say to them when they will be kicked out because you screwed their life?
Last edited by batman123; 10th Apr 2009 at 14:51.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To the Muppet 
,
I was Pilot A, and a very close friend of mine who was at the same flight school with same hours was Pilot B and offered the same job as me but chose a different path. If you look on ppjn you will find the up-do-date pay scales.
Yes I take everyones point that the airlines AT THE MOMENT have generally stopped recruting and for any wannabe out there I do have sympathy for you.
However the culture of "I must fly Jets" has been around alot longer than this "Crunch". Infact, spending MORE money in times like this is an even worse idea!
Even more experianced pilots than me will tell you that once you have done the job for a few months the most important thing about the aircraft you fly is how comfortable your seat is.
Air southwest is another that pay's for your TR
,I was Pilot A, and a very close friend of mine who was at the same flight school with same hours was Pilot B and offered the same job as me but chose a different path. If you look on ppjn you will find the up-do-date pay scales.
Yes I take everyones point that the airlines AT THE MOMENT have generally stopped recruting and for any wannabe out there I do have sympathy for you.
However the culture of "I must fly Jets" has been around alot longer than this "Crunch". Infact, spending MORE money in times like this is an even worse idea!
Even more experianced pilots than me will tell you that once you have done the job for a few months the most important thing about the aircraft you fly is how comfortable your seat is.
Air southwest is another that pay's for your TR
Join Date: May 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Third Rock From The Sun
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SuperpilotActually I am type rated. Done a SSTR, got it cheap, had the time and the money so did it. When you do the maths, you realise that a new pilot always ends up paying for a rating one way or another (reduced salary, bond, paying upfront all the same thing). It's the next step (paying for line hours) that I, like most, abhorr.
