Will the bottom of the barrel ever be scraped for pilots in the future?

[MIKECR]

Vortex,

I dont think anyone's going to cut you any slack, irrespective of how you try and justify it. The fact remains that the terms and conditions of airline employment and training have ultimately erroded because people have bent over and accepted whats put in front of them. The morals of it are perhaps a seperate issue but the facts remain. The recent ATP buy a job scheme caused major grief recently, even causing ripples through balpa and the likes. How quickly did Ezy wash thir hands of it once the stink went up!

[Vortex Thing]

Cut me slack, no thanks!!

MIKECR I am not after any slack. I haven't created the market conditions. Those above me did that!!

I do not doubt the fact that people like me erode the terms and conditions, I do not try and ignore the fact that this will lead to further and continual erosion for all in the industry including myself!

I am only stating that the sole cause is that airlines refuse to invest money in enough capacity in HR or enough quality in HR to recruit properly. This is the sole cause as to why I believe that money is now driving recruitment rather than the ability of pilots.

The above ONLY relates to paying for training vs. ability to get jobs.

Your QUITE CORRECT argument is that the Ts&Cs are eroded by those who are willing to do more for less. Errm yes they are its called supply and demand. As long as men and women want to fly this will continue my logic is simple in deed and Berksflyer's question is also answered in this paragraph. I am willing to do anything to keep my job i.e. get paid less, loose my house if I have to and rent because I live to fly. What are you willing to do to keep yours and if not more then why do you deserve it more than me?

They don't select soldiers, doctors, lawyers, accountants or sporstman on those who are talented but don't want to sacrifice enough. Did Lewis Hamilton's father say ,"No son I won't work 3 jobs and live in this council house in Hatfield to get you the next go kart." I fear not.

Success is for those who win it on the field of play or die trying it is not for those who believe that they are entitled to have more than others. You should earn what you have by fighting for it. If you really think that the Ts&Cs are being eroded to much then get on your feet and go on strike.

If not accept the changes as they are made but then do not complain when it has happened. The apathy is appalling in our aviation community and is part of the reason why countries like ours end up with useless Labour governments but that is a whole other thread.

VT

[G SXTY]

My airline are in the process of recruiting around 100 FOs this year, none of whom are paying for a type rating, never mind time on type.

And some of them are as old as me.

[MIKECR]

Vortex,

We'll agree to disagree. Paying to fly is not the industry norm as you end to suggest, im afraid it is very much the minority. I got 2 airline hold pool slots, both with bonded TR's. Im a modular guy, low hours, no spring chicken, and only paid 30k for my fatpl. I havent stooped to buying a job, I even turned down a Ryanair interview when I was told the financial outlay. I rest my case.

[BerksFlyer]

Vortex,

When you go down the "I've got a mortgage to pay and a family to feed" road, you're shooting youself in the foot. Surely if (or when, as I fear) flying becomes destroyed by people willing to fly for a loss as a sort of "I've always wanted to try that" 'job' (only to move on to a proper job where they get paid for their contribution to the company's wealth production when they can't afford any more hours), you're better off finding a non flying job? Even Sainsbury's pay people while they're training.

Saying that you are willing to take this as low as it goes is doing nothing but ruining it for yourself. You say you live to fly, surely you want to be able to fly to live and support your family in the future? Because I fear that you won't be able to due to this increasingly prevalent attitude towards the profession.

[Vortex Thing]

We'll agree to disagree. Paying to fly is not the industry norm as you end to suggest, im afraid it is very much the minority. I got 2 airline hold pool slots, both with bonded TR's. Im a modular guy, low hours, no spring chicken, and only paid 30k for my fatpl. I havent stooped to buying a job, I even turned down a Ryanair interview when I was told the financial outlay. I rest my case.

MIKECR I believe that your argument just proved my case rather than yours. You got into 2 airline hold pools with the above mentioned qualifications and I did not BUT did the firms that gave you hold pool slots interview you and I compare us and choose which of us were better? So how do they know that you are a better pilot than me? The fact is they don't and the reason they don't is because they did not select from the pool of available pilots and select them based on aptitude and ability.

I am not implying that I am a better or worse pilot than you I AM IMPLYING that the airline you fly for did not take the time to interview me (and many others) to find out. I am sure you did a sterling job of getting yourself noticed enough to get an interview but I know many many pilots who cannot for life or money get an interview even though they are very well qualified. I rest YOUR case.

My airline are in the process of recruiting around 100 FOs this year, none of whom are paying for a type rating, never mind time on type.

And some of them are as old as me.

I have a twenty which says that they will recruit them without properly sifting all the CVs they currently hold. 35 from Oxford, 35 from Cabair, 25 from a nod and a wink and then 5 from the other 1200 unemployed pilots out there.

If they are actually going to do a proper job of it and screen the CVs and bring forward everyone with the best qualifications and prior roles, psychometrically test them, interview them, aptitude test them and sim test those who get through. Then I would eat my hat if my airline were not so cheap that we didn't have any and even if we did we would have to pay for one...

But my real point is how lovely that they are recruiting but if they do not do it in a meritocratic way then it just fuels scenarios like the one we are discussing.

I am glad that you and MIKECR did not have to pay for a type rating lucky you!!! I am not saying that you do not deserve your jobs I am asking you if you would not prefer that you knew you were in the job because you knew that you were the best of those who were available when you got the job rather than because you were one of the lucky ones who feel into the right pile of CVs or knew the right people.

On one hand you want stable Ts&Cs because clearly you believe you deserve them and that would be the fair thing to do (NOW that you have you first jobs) but I did not see you campaigning for me and my colleagues right to even get an interview when 250hr pilots were jumping into our airlines not because they were the best available but just because they were in the right time and the right place.

BERKSFLYER

I think you hit the nail on the head. You talk about what I want. I think Nickleback just wrote a great song about that. What I want and what I get are not the same thing. I want to get £250k a year and free flights across the world, I want to have stable Ts&Cs, I want to live in a meritocracy, I want our troops pulled out of Iraq, I also want a 7 bed detached house with indoor pool in Gerrard's Cross, school fees to be waived for my children a sponsorship deal from Porsche giving me a new Cayenne S every year and a never ending string of cup winning polo ponies stabled out by my helipad with my sponsored Dauphin ready to whisk me to work.

I'll settle for a Brookfield contract, rubbish terms and conditions and paying for my uniform because that's what life gave me. If eventually the Ts&Cs drive me out of the industry OR the wife and kids leave me in favour of not having to raid supermarket bins for dinner then that's what life gave me.

VT

[BerksFlyer]

Vortex,

Ryanair don't ask you to pay for hours before joining at least. Things are as they are now, that's fine. But why surrender yourself to ever-falling conditions? It is not the norm to pay for line hours, though I'm sure it soon will be if people believe it is.

The best people for the job are often taken, why wouldn't they be? It's in the airline's best interest for the new recruit to be as little a training risk as possible. Even Ryanair only accept 40% of applicants - so clearly you don't get in if you're not good enough.

[tupues]

I'll settle for a Brookfield contract, rubbish terms and conditions and paying for my uniform because that's what life gave me. If eventually the Ts&Cs drive me out of the industry OR the wife and kids leave me in favour of not having to raid supermarket bins for dinner then that's what life gave me.

I rest my case.

[Vortex Thing]

This is the country I live in where do you live?

Berksflyer.

I think you miss my point I WANT A MERITOCRACY where only the best people for the job are taken. My implication is that that this rarely happens as some of the "best people" cannot get interviews and therefore do not have the chance to compete on a level playing field.

i.e. Let me give you the story of 3 colleagues in brief.

Colleague 1
Minor public school, 3As and 1B A level, Cambridge University 1st Class Hons in Law, RAF Flying Scholar, Cambridge University Air Squadron, 12 yrs RAF Puma pilot 1700hrs PUMA QHI, left and then did 1000hrs fixed wing (2 yrs) as a QFI before getting an interview for BMI regional, completed bond and now moved on to BA.

Colleague 2
Major public school, similar As, Bath University, Aeronautical Eng 2:1, also RAF Flying scholar, also UAS, RAF Fast Jet Engineering Officer for 8 years. Left service 2002. 3000hrs TT, 1500hrs turbo prop, 800hrs multi crew, full JAR ATPL, FAA and DGCA licences. Applied to over 200 airlines got first job earlier this year with a jet firm base out of a London airport has still not received answer from Eastern, Flybe, or Highland to whom he has been applying for 6 years.

Colleague 3
Minor public school, 4 As, Durham Uni Physics 1st Hons, Army Air Corps Officer. 1400hrs Lynx, left 2003, as squadron commander. 300hrs SEP straight into A320 job no SSTR.

Colleague 4
School unknown, Army Dental Hygenist, non grad left as a corporal. 250hrs no other flying experience aged 30. Straight into a turbo prop left hand seat 2 weeks after receiving CPL IR.

Colleague 5
Aged 22 Danish, supermarket assistant, no previous flying, non grad, on my SSTR now has 1200hrs on B737.

Don't tell me that it is a meritocracy out there. This is the reality that well qualified people cannot get replies or interviews thus they pay to fly as no one will give them a chance otherwise and after a few years of driving trucks and working in McDonalds they get fed up and just pay Eagle Jet et al as there is nothing else they can do...

[Vortex Thing]

Tupes

Before you rest your case why don't you start it.

You can answer the questions above or sit on the fence and complain about your Ts&Cs.

It is ever so easy to criticize but maybe you could tell us all what the solution should be? Or you could just place asinine comments on the thread but not actually say anything. Your call.....

VT out

[BerksFlyer]

Here's you complaining it's not a meritocracy, then you use people going to Public Schools and not getting a job as examples. So because someone can afford to go to public school they are better than someone who came from the state system? Also, just because people have served time in the forces doesn't give them the right to walk into a civilian airline job.

If you want a meritocracy, condoning people paying to get ahead is the wrong thing to do. Paying to get ahead is exactly what you are doing the second you give Eagle Jet money to sit in the right hand seat and play pilot.

[ant1]

It just a matter of supply and demand and that tremendous force cannot be canceled.

Whether the selection system is a meritocracy or a Meormydadknowomebodycracy or something in between, those left out will be a big pool of customers for those organizations selling whatever scheme they can come up with. Then back to the times when money was the selection criteria.

So we're back on topic: Will the bottom of the barrel ever be scraped for pilots in the future?

Because unless Pilot demand becomes greater than supply, T&C's ain't gonna improve. And I personally don't think the Pilot supply chain is going to shrink to that point.

So if we could get back on topic and talk a little bit about supply and demand we may foresee what the future will bring as far as T&C's are concerned.

[Vortex Thing]

I just want the same for everyone

Here's you complaining it's not a meritocracy, then you use people going to Public Schools and not getting a job as examples. So because someone can afford to go to public school they are better than someone who came from the state system? Also, just because people have served time in the forces doesn't give them the right to walk into a civilian airline job.

If you want a meritocracy, condoning people paying to get ahead is the wrong thing to do. Paying to get ahead is exactly what you are doing the second you give Eagle Jet money to sit in the right hand seat and play pilot.

You've missed my point, apologies I haven't put it correctly. My implication was not to imply in any way shape or form that having a public school background should give you the right to anything. My point was that these are well educated, well qualified men and women with clear flying pedigree some of whom who could not secure interviews for years. Whilst pilots with a clear lack of pedigree academically, within aviation and in life in general by THEIR own admission got lucky.

That is my point.

Paying to get to where you would have gotten anyway had their been a level playing field is not paying to get ahead; it's paying to not waste years of your life driving fuel bowsers, working in ops, or as cabin crew whilst someone less able and less qualified flies for an airline becuase their dad plays golf with someone else's dad. It is about getting to where you deserve to be anyway but no one is willing to give you the chance to get to as they will not invest in finding the best pilots.

The fact that someone cannot afford to go to public school is a brilliant example because this actually does not disadvantage them in any shape or form they have the ability to get into any university regardless of background. They can go on to become Prime minister or invent the longer lasting light bulb if they are able. If they aren't they may get a head start but they will never achieve much.

The fact that someone has many years service as a military pilot does not mean that they are Chuck Yeager but it does mean that for everyone of them who started the process they have beaten 2500 other applicants to be awarded wings. They have also survived a completely meritocratic and demanding 2-4 year course. You do the sortie if it's not good enough you get to do it again if it still isn't good enough you get a chop ride, three strikes and your out pack your bags. Race, colour, creed and education are irrelevant the best survive the rest get chopped. In civvy street you just keep paying until you pass, the standards best pilots are just as good as the military best pilots but the average standard is far lower and the product inevitably far more wider ranging.

You have demonstrated the ability to take complex and varying information and work under intense pressure and as an officer probably commanded other people whilst doing it but yet you say it doesn't give you the right to walk into an airline job. Maybe it doesn't but please explain what gives some with none of that AND no commensurate civilian experience the right to an interview over candidates with that background? I am not implying military pilots are better I am implying that they are hardly so rubbish as to not merit an interview!

[Nearly There]

VT
Welcome to civvy street

[Screwballs]

How come you didn't mention any of their nationalities except the low-houred guy who was DANISH, shock, horror of all things? Would you have told us he was black too?

Nice chip on the shoulder there VT.

[CamelhAir]

VT, five years looking for a job during the biggest recruitment boom in years? When anyone with a licence, except the most useless muppets, found a job?
The world doesn't owe you a job VT, some people who hold a CPL will never fly a commercial airliner. Some just aren't good enough. If you haven't made it during the recent boom, maybe you need to honestly assess your suitability for the job.
As for your extreme willingness to cut your, and everyone else, throat in the process, let's all fervently hope you never get a flying job.

[BerksFlyer]

You've missed my point, apologies I haven't put it correctly. My implication was not to imply in any way shape or form that having a public school background should give you the right to anything. My point was that these are well educated, well qualified men and women with clear flying pedigree some of whom who could not secure interviews for years. Whilst pilots with a clear lack of pedigree academically, within aviation and in life in general by THEIR own admission got lucky.

Everyone gets luck at some point. Not all good pilots have a particularly good academic record. The Danish fellow you speak of probably left school at 18 and stacked shelves every waking hour to save enough money to train. The assessors on your course obviously saw that he was capable enough and got offered a job.

The ex forces public school gentlemen who haven't got jobs have probably been unlucky. Maybe they are doing something wrong? Maybe their CV isn't very good? I don't know, but they are either unfortunate or are not trying hard enough. People with a worse background manage to get jobs, but these people still have to be selected, and why airlines would deliberately hire bad pilots I don't know. What benefit is there for them to employ a poor pilot over a good one?

[Vortex Thing]

CamelToe read the thread before making asinine comments

CamelhAir VT, five years looking for a job during the biggest recruitment boom in years? When anyone with a licence, except the most useless muppets, found a job?
The world doesn't owe you a job VT, some people who hold a CPL will never fly a commercial airliner. Some just aren't good enough. If you haven't made it during the recent boom, maybe you need to honestly assess your suitability for the job.
As for your extreme willingness to cut your, and everyone else, throat in the process, let's all fervently hope you never get a flying job.

CamelhAir I do hope that your attention to detail is better when you come to looking at your FCOMs and SOPs. I never for a moment stated that the world owes me anything. In fact if you read above in the thread you will see that I am trying to champion the cause of meritocracy and advocate that in a perfect aviation world airlines would only select the BEST candidates available. To do this they need to interview everyone suitably, or at the least equally, qualified rather than just taking those from their preferred schools or those who have managed to be lucky enough to have found the right contact at the right time.

As for me I do have a job flying 737s thank you very much for asking. If you bothered to read this thread from the beginning you would notice that:-

a) I actually state on more than one occasion that no one should have to pay to get a job but that is the way it is. Hence my post entitled I just want the same for everyone only 4 posts ago!

b)my point is about the fact that some of my colleagues whom I know to be better pilots than I have still yet to get a job, many others took five years in the same market when pilots who by THEIR own admission were not as good did so in weeks.

The reasons for this are not because they are not good enough but because they have not managed to get interviews. Getting a job is easy once you have the interview. If you get interviews and fail them THEN you can worry as to whether you are good enough or not. The problem is that most airlines do not select from a level playing field. I agree with you Berks flyer not all good pilots have a good academic record, my point which you seem desperate to avoid is that when you look at a CV you have to select them for something. There is nothing on most peoples CV saying how good a pilot they are so how comes some people with proven FLYING ability AND strong academics are not being interviewed when others with lesser both are. I am not saying that airlines are hiring poor pilots I am saying that the best pilots are not in the best jobs i.e. a meritocracy there are excellent pilots who cannot get interviews when average pilots with a bit more "luck" you call it have managed to do so.

I am not talking about anyone being selected over anyone else. That is down to the individual, if you get an interview and fail it then there is no come back, you were either not good enough or do not fit. As I also stated I have never failed a selection and have been offered every single flying job that I have been interviewed for, my point was not about ME it was about those other unfortunates who have not been selected because they have NOT BEEN INTERVIEWED that is why ABLE pilots sometimes have to pay to get on in aviation. It doesn't matter how much money you have if you do not have the ability the problem is until the airlines invest time and money in a fair selection process we will continue to see pilots with high ability going to other jobs elsewhere if they do not have the funds or willingness to part with cold hard cash.

CamelToe don't misplace my desire to fly with a willingness to cut anyone's throat. I have more than earned my right to do what I do for a living and I want it perhaps more than many but that is why I DID make it the point we should all hopefully be aiming for is that it should not be luck of the draw it should purely be about the most able pilots in the best jobs.

The only people who need to reassess their processes are those who let this happen rather than doing something about it.

I really am not sure how much clearer I can make this point.

[Flaps up no lights]

Well said VT

VT

VT well fought and I couldn't agree more with your views....

AS a modular guy and SSTR chap!! I don't personally see the difference between what I have done to secure a job and what these snotty nosed Pay for your Job Oxford/Cabair types!!! , apart from mummy and daddy bought them their job Circa £60K. Whilst I like so many went out to earn the much needed cash to complete the training myself.........not to mention life experience...

So no matter how you look at it we all BUY our flying jobs through our licences, whether your LUCKY enough to get the first interview with just 200hrs FATPL, or have to keep applying whilst improving your chances with a SSTR then maybe some line hours.....

So All of you on your HIGH HORSES get off of them........

Happy and safe flying all

[BerksFlyer]

As I also stated I have never failed a selection and have been offered every single flying job that I have been interviewed for, my point was not about ME it was about those other unfortunates who have not been selected because they have NOT BEEN INTERVIEWED that is why ABLE pilots sometimes have to pay to get on in aviation.

So what do you think about the poor pilots who pay to get ahead?

By encouraging paying for line training it's only making the playing field less even as far as I can see.