Will the bottom of the barrel ever be scraped for pilots in the future?
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I have more than earned my right to do what I do for a living and I want it perhaps more than many but that is why I DID make it the point we should all hopefully be aiming for is that it should not be luck of the draw it should purely be about the most able pilots in the best jobs.
As you said, most able pilots in the best jobs: take a good, hard look at yourself and wonder again why you took so long to get hired? And before you go off on a rant at me saying I slagged off your ability -I have not, and never will do such a thing. I am merely asking you to go back and look again at why you were not hired when you though you should have been.
Cheers.
S.
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these snotty nosed Pay for your Job Oxford/Cabair types!!! , apart from mummy and daddy bought them their job
So All of you on your HIGH HORSES get off of them........
VT- anyone with half a brain knows my 'case' from my earlier comments. Simple solution is have some self respect. Would you hear someone from any other profession even contemplate the below comment??
If eventually the Ts&Cs drive me out of the industry OR the wife and kids leave me in favour of not having to raid supermarket bins for dinner then that's what life gave me.
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fight fight fight
Tupues
Come on give VT a proper argument.
At least Berksflyer et al are standing toe to toe and having a proper debate on an interesting subject.
Throwing rocks and other peoples quotes from your bunker is not debate. Im interested to hear your proper thoughts and opinions rather than the snipes you've given so far. Come on lets see some literal blood.
My two pence worth is do what you've got to do to get a job as no one else will help you. But beware that that could kick you in the arse at a later date.
At the end of the day we have five people/groups to blame for the state of our industry
1. MOL and his appostles at the church of F**K YOU
2. OPEC
3. Passengers who want everything for nothing
4. Ourselves for wanting more to do less and of course
5. OBL
Safe flying
Come on give VT a proper argument.
At least Berksflyer et al are standing toe to toe and having a proper debate on an interesting subject.
Throwing rocks and other peoples quotes from your bunker is not debate. Im interested to hear your proper thoughts and opinions rather than the snipes you've given so far. Come on lets see some literal blood.
My two pence worth is do what you've got to do to get a job as no one else will help you. But beware that that could kick you in the arse at a later date.
At the end of the day we have five people/groups to blame for the state of our industry
1. MOL and his appostles at the church of F**K YOU
2. OPEC
3. Passengers who want everything for nothing
4. Ourselves for wanting more to do less and of course
5. OBL
Safe flying
Last edited by gone till november; 30th Jul 2008 at 21:40.
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Screw Loose more like it
As you said, most able pilots in the best jobs: take a good, hard look at yourself and wonder again why you took so long to get hired? And before you go off on a rant at me saying I slagged off your ability -I have not, and never will do such a thing. I am merely asking you to go back and look again at why you were not hired when you though you should have been.
As for why it took me long to get a job I don't think that it did take that long to get hired it took me a long time to get an interview. As for why I didn't get hired by airlines when I thought I should, well never has there been a more simple question simply because they hadn't interviewed me. Had they interviewed me, I expect like everyone else who has, they would have offered me the job.
I was never in the RAF!!!! There are 3 other armed services who have pilots you know. Don't assume!
And as for earning my right. I was trying to imply that I had fought for my country, putting my life on the line so that people like you AND I have the right to a democracy. This in the vain hope that a democracy should also be a meritocracy. So do I think that being a born and bred UK citizen I should be entitled to a job ahead of others who aren't no! I think that all eligible pilots i.e. fluent in English, equally qualified and with right to live and work in EEC are equal the only thing that should matter is the basic background on their profile and their ability. The problem here is that ability doesn't count for anything if you don't get interviewed.
I think that the profiles should be fair so if you interview a 250hrs pilot over a 2000hr ex-military pilot (N.B. I SAID INTERVIEW NOT SELECT and I a NOT talking about myself) then something is wrong. If you take the former over the latter then that is fine if they are better at selection but how they can assess a 250hr pilot to be better by just the CV to the point that they do not interview the latter is beyond me.
It is the fact that some airlines take this stance that we should take umbridge at.
Gone till November Thank you at last the voice of reason speaks up!!! This is what a lot of us think but oh it is so hard to get people to say it.
How come you didn't mention any of their nationalities except the low-houred guy who was DANISH, shock, horror of all things? Would you have told us he was black too?
Nice chip on the shoulder there VT.
Nice chip on the shoulder there VT.
The only thing on my shoulders are gold bars. If you want chips get down the chippy...
VT
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 3rd Aug 2008 at 15:14.
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It is simply not possible or even worthwhile interviewing EVERY single flying job as such jobs are not generally so mission critical as to require a Chuck Yeager each time. Also there tends to be pressing time factors involved so why should a company wish to interview all potential applicants or incur the associated costs in doing so. You rightly point out that there is precious little to differentiate between CV's and if you can fill your 4 flying jobs by interviewing 10 applicants why bother to go any further?
Luck plays a large part in aviation recruitment, being in the right place at the right time (i.e. your CV at the top of the pile on the right day instead of the day before), networking and FTO recommendations (for low hours applicants obviously and it is certainly debatable how valuable and forthcoming these are).
It could be - and only playing devils advocate here - that fresh low-hours pilots provide less of a training risk to a typical airline than a fast-jet pilot who may have been looking for a civilian flying job for 12+ months? There is probably some method to the perceived madness you & your friends have experienced thus far?
A true meritocracy would be lovely, but then so would a true democracy .. . I doubt I or my children will live to see either.
Luck plays a large part in aviation recruitment, being in the right place at the right time (i.e. your CV at the top of the pile on the right day instead of the day before), networking and FTO recommendations (for low hours applicants obviously and it is certainly debatable how valuable and forthcoming these are).
It could be - and only playing devils advocate here - that fresh low-hours pilots provide less of a training risk to a typical airline than a fast-jet pilot who may have been looking for a civilian flying job for 12+ months? There is probably some method to the perceived madness you & your friends have experienced thus far?
A true meritocracy would be lovely, but then so would a true democracy .. . I doubt I or my children will live to see either.
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Well VT, you have clearly beaten my case by making funny names out of my username. Bravo
You say you didn't mention class or background in your posts. What about "Major public school, Cambridge University 1st Class Hons in Law, RAF Flying Scholar" does not strike you as class or background? You have a chip on your shoulder. You're only denying yourself.
Anywho, when it's down to slagging off my username and telling me all about your gold bars then it's time for some ignore list action.
Screwloose is off to the chippy.
You say you didn't mention class or background in your posts. What about "Major public school, Cambridge University 1st Class Hons in Law, RAF Flying Scholar" does not strike you as class or background? You have a chip on your shoulder. You're only denying yourself.
Anywho, when it's down to slagging off my username and telling me all about your gold bars then it's time for some ignore list action.
Screwloose is off to the chippy.
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Oh come on someone put up a decent argument against
Hollingworth P I completely agree that it is not worth interviewing every possible candidate for every single seat that becomes available. I am not asking airlines to do that that would be ridiculous. As for pressing time factors anyone who has applied is available so time factors are irrelevant. Sort the CVs now into order of preference by a common standard and when you get the go ahead to recruit take from the top of the pile. My bug bear is how the pile is organized!
I do not however agree that there is precious little difference between a 250hr pilot straight out of training and a 1000hr plus ex military fast jet pilot. I think you will find that Virgin, BA, Emirates, Cathay, Thompson, Easyjet etc agree with me.
A 250hr pilot straight from a course has no proven pedigree other than having a CPL/IR which to be honest is the basic minimum to apply for any flying job regardless of recommendation this can never be seen to be more than displaying potential. The line military pilot IS not about potential he/she has already demonstrated their ability by passing a far more rigorous selection and course than any type rating or civilian course.
This isn't my view, this is fact, the only problem seems to be that the airlines above know, understand and actively recruit fairly hence why they factorize their hours in their application process and make adjust their recruiting policy accordingly so that military pilots require less hours.
I am suggesting that the problem is the airlines who interview 250hr pilots over 1000hr+ pilots with similar sorts of background.
So whilst I accept that airlines should not interview every pilot with a CPL/IR for a job they should have some common standard like in the USA where everyone works their way up to the next rung i.e 250hr pilots do not get interviews over 1000hr pilots they work from SEP, MEP, SET, MET then jet then go upwards and onwards. Then we could approach a meritocracy quite easily.
So if the airline have the resource to interview only 10 pilots, fair enough, interview the next 10 most qualified pilots in the queue. Just form the queue fairly
Screw loose you started the slanging match by telling me I have a chip on my shoulder where there is none. If a bit of harmless banter scares you off and prevents you from expressing you opinion logically and maybe even backing it with some examples or facts and figures then your lack of fortitude in the face of adversity will hardly make us all stop and look at your views.
Sorry the fact that someone did or did not attend Cambridge is nothing to do with their class. Prince or pauper have to pass the same academic standards, I am not naive enough to think that there are not some who have not bought a place by their parents fame and/or wealth (but this is the significant minority these days), RAF Flying scholarships also pay no attention to class just pure ability and public schools have scholarships schemes and thus also do not imply any specific class.
As explained I was not describing myself but colleagues and simply using things that are meritocratic that should be important in our democratic society when it comes to the pecking order for job selection. If you feel that a Cantab 1st has no bearing on someones ability for just about any role then perhaps it is you who have the chip on their shoulder and may I suggest that that chip is coloured green....
VT
I do not however agree that there is precious little difference between a 250hr pilot straight out of training and a 1000hr plus ex military fast jet pilot. I think you will find that Virgin, BA, Emirates, Cathay, Thompson, Easyjet etc agree with me.
A 250hr pilot straight from a course has no proven pedigree other than having a CPL/IR which to be honest is the basic minimum to apply for any flying job regardless of recommendation this can never be seen to be more than displaying potential. The line military pilot IS not about potential he/she has already demonstrated their ability by passing a far more rigorous selection and course than any type rating or civilian course.
This isn't my view, this is fact, the only problem seems to be that the airlines above know, understand and actively recruit fairly hence why they factorize their hours in their application process and make adjust their recruiting policy accordingly so that military pilots require less hours.
I am suggesting that the problem is the airlines who interview 250hr pilots over 1000hr+ pilots with similar sorts of background.
So whilst I accept that airlines should not interview every pilot with a CPL/IR for a job they should have some common standard like in the USA where everyone works their way up to the next rung i.e 250hr pilots do not get interviews over 1000hr pilots they work from SEP, MEP, SET, MET then jet then go upwards and onwards. Then we could approach a meritocracy quite easily.
So if the airline have the resource to interview only 10 pilots, fair enough, interview the next 10 most qualified pilots in the queue. Just form the queue fairly
Screw loose you started the slanging match by telling me I have a chip on my shoulder where there is none. If a bit of harmless banter scares you off and prevents you from expressing you opinion logically and maybe even backing it with some examples or facts and figures then your lack of fortitude in the face of adversity will hardly make us all stop and look at your views.
Sorry the fact that someone did or did not attend Cambridge is nothing to do with their class. Prince or pauper have to pass the same academic standards, I am not naive enough to think that there are not some who have not bought a place by their parents fame and/or wealth (but this is the significant minority these days), RAF Flying scholarships also pay no attention to class just pure ability and public schools have scholarships schemes and thus also do not imply any specific class.
As explained I was not describing myself but colleagues and simply using things that are meritocratic that should be important in our democratic society when it comes to the pecking order for job selection. If you feel that a Cantab 1st has no bearing on someones ability for just about any role then perhaps it is you who have the chip on their shoulder and may I suggest that that chip is coloured green....
VT
