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Arab/Muslim pilot discrimination...

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Arab/Muslim pilot discrimination...

Old 18th Jul 2007, 20:10
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Arab/Muslim pilot discrimination...

Since the high threat of terrorism associated with aviation and public transport in the past few years, i was wondering how many, if any, pilots of muslim/arab background feel they have been affected adversly by these tragic events??
This is mainly aimed at pilots/crew operating in the UK/Europe.

Do you feel you may have been discrminated against in any way...

Have you possibly lost your job or found things different in the working environement...

Have you ever had to hide your religious beliefs or cultural background to aviod being discriminated against in the work place...

Or have things been positive for you in any way...
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Old 19th Jul 2007, 08:36
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I have been recently in the USA, and I have not seen any arab, muslims pilots like it was before 9/11.
I know the immigration makes things much harder for them to enter, with very long application process, in fact, most are unwelcome in the States.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 10:41
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Not necessarily there are numerous arab pilots flying the states so don't go on initial speculation and stereotyping. Most Americans are not silly nor small minded as some would have us think, there have been examples post 9/11 of US captains standing up for their brown skinned crew members against passenger revolts in waiting lounges. Also a number of middle eastern students have completed type ratings there too so I'm sure it can be done. Indeed there'll be the understandable delay in application procedures and verification but I'm sure you can understand the circumstances for such caution.

As for dartagnan, well words fail me, the guy is always negative and full of doom and gloom over any issue. He's more depressing than the weather we're having the UK at the moment.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 13:48
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I am an arab/muslim, coming to the end of my A levels so i am looking for sponsorship hopefully i'll get one by this time next year (insha'allah). I am also british but the fact that i am arab/muslim i feel that its going to be very hard for me to be sponsored by any western airlines. Very sad if you ask me, because my chances have been made very slim by events occured in the past. This is my dream and i am just following it
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 14:14
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How sure are you that your chances have been reduced because of the events of the last 6 years until you try. Go in with an open mind, just as i'm sure that the people who would be interviewing you would have an open mind. Intelligent people know that it is just a small fraction that have violent feelings towards others.

Granted i'm white so i've never had these kinds of prejudices against me, but if i were ever in a position to interview people (many years from now) i'd like to think that i'd realise this and score people on their merits and not what others have done.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 15:13
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It's not 100% related but it is a bit. I'm still at uni and was going off to Florida to start step 1 of my training, get a PPL.

But unfortunately the US Embassy are giving me a massive run around. They won't approve my M1 Visa application, but they won't refuse it either. The person that interviewed me grilled me extensively, to the point where I was really getting annoyed with his inane and patronising questions, then after all that I was told he didn't have the authority to approve my application and I should take my I20, my Sevis receipt, and my Passport and go home and wait for a phone call/letter telling me the result of my application. He said it would be 2-3 days at most.

As some may know, the US embassy in the UK is probably more guarded than most of the airports so no mobiles are allowed inside. Knowing this I'd left it at home. By the time I got home I had a voicemail message from the guy who interviewed me. He basically said it's not going to be 2-3 days it's going to be as long as it takes. He gave me his name and a number I could call him at the embassy and said just to give a ring if I needed any more information. I left it a few days, then rang the number. No answer, went through to voicemail and a kind recorded message informed me the extension number I had dialled didn't subscribe to that voicemail service. Goodbye. Dial tone. A bit miffed I tried again and again, and have been ringing a few times a day for about a month now. No response.

All I can ascertain is that they don't want to give me a Visa to learn to fly in USA, but they don't want to say no because they have no real reason to say no. They don't want to be seen to be saying no based on the fact that I check all their "terrorist alert boxes" but they don't have any real intel that says I may be one. So by not doing anything eventually I'll either give up, or I'll have run out of time. They know I am a university student too so they may just wait till September when they know I can't go. I may be dropping out though so if they do that I win... haha.

(to Mods: I know this isn't 100% relevant but I assume because I'm still new here I can't post a new topic in the Private Pilot forum - I tried and failed - so I've been waiting for a semi-relevant topic to come around so I can post a reply in it. Feel free to move this there as a New topic if you wish. I just wanted to warn other UK Asian/Muslim people who are thinking of going to USA for some training they may have issues with it)
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 15:59
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Without starting a race argument, but correct me if I am incorrect but, I have hardly not seen any Asian/Arab ethnic orgin working for the likes of BMI Mainline.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 16:09
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That's because there have been very few Asian or any ethnic minority students undertaking pilot training until quite recently. Thus you'll begin to see more and more go through the pipeline and then end up at BMI mainline in years to come....
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 16:13
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Maybe they've just got commen sense and choose not to work with bmi mainline...
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 17:23
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As a Muslim working for a British Airline I have to say that I overcame many a hurdle to securing a job. I was given non-sensal reasons for being rejected at interview despite very often doing well in aptitude tests etc. I felt there was a prejudice against Muslims - I could give you an example but I won't since the airline would very easily know who I am. To tell it briefly I got rejected by a certain airline at interview. The reason they gave me was a weird one but I accepted it and moved on. Later I found out they had given the job to atleast 3 other people who according to the reason they gave me should also have been rejected. I was going to write a letter to them but in the end left it though thinking back now I probably should have.

The main stumbling block is the cultural differences. Usually the interviewers can't relate to you. That was a big problem for me at interviews. I'm very competent in my field and my record proves that, but for some reason the HR guys didn't like me. I don't have any character problems.

Mind you, not all airlines are like that. ThomsonFly for one are not like that. I won't list the ones that are...

I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of your dream. Don't let it put you off, but be prepared for the sort of thing I've mentioned above.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 18:24
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do we need to change religion and become musulman for be a pilot to Etihad ?
Thaaaanks
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 18:31
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You felt that you were being discriminated against because of your religion? Simply because you were not selected at interview, so you were that good, you believe the job should have been yours hey? What explanation do the majority of us get for all the rejection letters that dont turn up without an explanation as to why we failed selection, how do we justify not getting the job after obviously being so good at what we do?? It is nothing to do with religion, but what you are implying is that some UK airlines are being racially prejudice, an outrageous statement. This is the United Kingdom remember, pilots are employed from all over the world here, taking jobs from home grown talent, is that some form of discrimination against Brits??? To suggest that you are the victim of discrimination is ridiculous, spreading this tosh about is only likely to stir up tempers. Also implying that others like you are likely to be victims of such fantasy whilst job hunting is simply nonsensical and dangerous.

Believe me, this not a poke at anyones faith or beliefs, but enough is enough.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 19:21
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The statement:

"taking jobs from home grown talent"

Is sort of... discusting. So you think that foreing pilots "take" jobs...fine. Your point of view to justify Don Simon words is that foreings are taking something that belongs to others (because those "others" are Brits). Where did you get that right from???? If that home talents are such, I am sure they will get a job by themselfs because they deserve it not because they are Brits. Let me tell you that I am foreing and where I am from, there are some others foreings (including Brits) working for airlines, you should tell them to come back home, so I would be able to get that job that belongs to me and by the way, make more difficult for those unexperience home talents to get that job of their .
There are lovely people here, but I have to say that there are also people not that nice.
Talking about interviews, I have passed exactly through the same as Don Simon, but I am not muslim.

"The main stumbling block is the cultural differences. Usually the interviewers can't relate to you. That was a big problem for me at interviews. I'm very competent in my field and my record proves that, but for some reason the HR guys didn't like me. I don't have any character problems."

I am completely agree with you, most HR people are unable to understand that the fact that there are cultural differences doesnīt mean that you are a problematic person. What is worse is that they donīt even think on that, they see that you are different in some aspects, and in plain english, you are weird and they just donīt trust you.

I think that muslim pilots are going to have slightly some more problems in some places, but I am sure that it wonīt be that way everywhere.
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Old 20th Jul 2007, 21:42
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The fact is that I do, and nobody has complained or have had any problem understanding me (I started 1,6 years ago).
Although my english is not perfect, it seems that you have understood me very well, then it can not be that bad. Sorry that I canīt talk as posh and as well as you, but english is just my third languaje, being bilingual in other two, so excuse me please, I try my best.
Try to annoy me in Italian too if you wish, I donīt bother even a bit because of the bad intetion of your comment.
Anyway I encourage you to try harder and practice some more Spanish as I knew what you meant but there are errors in your phrase.(you could participate in the spanish forum, they wonīt critize you or will try to make you feel bad if you do mistakes).
You could write what you have said in english, I think it woul be fair for everybody else in the forum to know what you meant.
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Old 21st Jul 2007, 00:03
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Hi there, an interesting topic to find after isiting this site since years, but yes it is a different world out there today than it was six years ago, let me tell you about my experience. I went to the embassy for my visa and had to wait there for ages, after persuading the consulate that i was not going to fly into any buildings! (which is what he asked me) he approved my visa. also i was informed that my name was the same match of a suspected wnated terrorist and he has to make sure i wasn't the bad guy. so i got my visa and could go to Florida for my ppl flight training BUTit did not guarantee entry into the US.
when I got into the US i was held up at immigration for 2hrs and being somehwat treated seperatly and differently compared to the students i went along with who just showed their I-20's and were free to go. i was asked about how serious i was a practising muslim, weather i've been to any of these countries in the last six months, pakistan, afganistan etc, where was my university inLondon, what was the name of this course i was doing, where my parents came from
all was good and after passing that last hurdle they let me go, since i produced the neccesassry documents, id, spoke gould fluent eng and posed no threat, in fact they seemed pretty nice actually afterwards.
my point is basically they are not going to take any chances and i accept that. being a muslim myself my advise to you is as long as you can provide evidence of your ability to support yourself financially and source of income, your eng is reasonably good, you have your vis/passport, and if your from england or whereverver if you got educational backgrounds then there is no reason whey you should be denied training. After my TSA was approved i began my training and just completed my ppl in florida. during my time there the people i met were awsome, i met other muslims and all ethnic background students, although you might get some prejudice/discriminativeness when applying for jobs, i'd be patient and keep your options open because your far more likely to be selected based on your aptitude and personality than your race/religion. its a tough career, especially for muslims but i'm determined to go all the way through my FATPL and eventually somewhere in the end i will get employed (inshallah) but i'm not gonna let the past stop me from acheiving my dream. good luck!
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Old 22nd Jul 2007, 14:25
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<TIC13>
Just to note I am English and work abroad for a European airline. I have be told to my face multiple times 'we don't want you here.' I suspect Britain is one of the more tolerant places out there compared to a lot of Europe, for what it's worth.
(With reference to discussion on foreigners 'taking' jobs in countries, rather than religious / race topic of the thread).

I would hope at least in England the recruitment process would be fair for everyone without any positive or negative discrimination based on sex/race/religion/which airline your father worked for etc.

Last edited by tom775257; 22nd Jul 2007 at 14:35.
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Old 23rd Jul 2007, 04:59
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after the doctors getting involved, things just got tuff.....

there are many asian national muslims in line for visas in EU, Aus, USA and their future is now destroyed due a few despots.
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Old 23rd Jul 2007, 05:30
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is anyone surprised that muslims get discriminated against?????

in the eyes of the general public, muslim+aeroplane=9/11.

the problem is not a non muslim problem, it is a muslim problem. muslims are not all bad people, as a rule they are educated, have loving families and basically live life as most non muslims do. the muslim problem is as follows: muslims in general have to take responsibility for the actions of those who commit acts of terror in the name of islam. the average muslim has to stand up and stop their islamic brothers from committing these acts. until the average muslim takes control of this situation, the rest of the world in general will treat them suspicion.

most people wouldnt be nervous sitting next to a buddist monk on an aircraft.

sad, but true.
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Old 23rd Jul 2007, 08:47
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exactly... its "sad but true"
Unfortunately I ont think this problem will change for many years.
But suprise ?? I think it goes both ways this issue.

Two years ago a Danish newspaper made some catoons which wasent too popular in the muslim world... Because of that there was entire parts of the world were we Danes couldent go because it was too dangerous.
So .... Is it fair that I get judged by a cartoon in newspaper ???
- The answer is NO
Is it fair that the average muslim person get judged by terroracts etc.
- Angain the answer is NO

But no matter how unfair it seems... and indeed alot of us thinks its unfair, i dont think things will change quickly.... unfortunately.

it is indeed SAD BUT TRUE
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Old 23rd Jul 2007, 10:48
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what a load of rubbish !!

TIC12345 :

I have read your posts (most of which was incredibly difficult due to your poor english) and think you are talking rubbish ! I grew up in a european country , speak the language to perfection but would not even apply for a job as i already know the outcome !!! most countries including yours i suspect only like to employ 'their own ' .

We in this country however accept lots of people to come in whatever their religion or nationality. Oh and not forgetting we also provide them with a nice house and free money every week courtesy of all the hard working tax payers. Fact is we are a nation of acceptance and if we were discriminating against people due to their race then surely they would not get past immigration !!

I have many muslim friends who are fantastic people , everybody has the right to believe in what they want ! anyone who thinks they are not getting jobs in this country due to anything else but their ability or LACK of it as some of the posts here suggest (DON SiMON) are very mistaken.
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