Global Warming; should I still go ahead with training?
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Global Warming; should I still go ahead with training?
Im 20 years of age and in the fortunate position that my parents are re-mortgaging the house(!) and paying for my ATPL training at Oxford Air Training early this year. I hold a PPL, IMC and Night Qualification but for some reason I'm not as extatic as I should be. I received the news of going to Oxford at Christmas time and I'm so scared that in one years time when I qualify for my frozen ATPL (hopefully) that there will be few people flying, because of the higher taxes therefor there will be fewer aircraft and loads of pilots with many hours out of work. In which case I wouldnt have a chance.
What do you think the future holds for pilots in the next ten years with regards to the global warming issues that are plastered all over the news channels most nights? What are the possibilites of me landing myself in a F.O's position somewhere in the UK in a years time straight from ATPL school?
Thanking-you all in advance for your advice,
ukpplc
What do you think the future holds for pilots in the next ten years with regards to the global warming issues that are plastered all over the news channels most nights? What are the possibilites of me landing myself in a F.O's position somewhere in the UK in a years time straight from ATPL school?
Thanking-you all in advance for your advice,
ukpplc
AustralianMade
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Hi ukpplc,
I doubt the airline industry is going to suffer to the extent that you are worried about, certainly not in the time frame that you mentioned.
Do you think that Boeing and EADS would be investing multi billions in developing new a/c if there was no future in the industry?
Perhaps your young years have not taught you to moderate what you read in the media with reality ...
... or, are you getting cold feet about a flying career altogether? If so, save your Folks the mortgage and delay further training until you are sure.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers mate, I hope you work it all out.
ABX
I doubt the airline industry is going to suffer to the extent that you are worried about, certainly not in the time frame that you mentioned.
Do you think that Boeing and EADS would be investing multi billions in developing new a/c if there was no future in the industry?
Perhaps your young years have not taught you to moderate what you read in the media with reality ...
... or, are you getting cold feet about a flying career altogether? If so, save your Folks the mortgage and delay further training until you are sure.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers mate, I hope you work it all out.
ABX
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i agree with ABX,
The news in the media is just speculation one man wanting to raise taxes doesn't mean its certain. besides which the time to make such a decision you would have finished your course and probably be a few years flying already.
take things you read with a pinch of salt.
I feel something so small, and as it stands not yet reality, making you rethink whether to continue on suggests you're not as passionate about continuing onwards. Take a long hard look before commiting your parents to a remortgage.
The news in the media is just speculation one man wanting to raise taxes doesn't mean its certain. besides which the time to make such a decision you would have finished your course and probably be a few years flying already.
take things you read with a pinch of salt.
I feel something so small, and as it stands not yet reality, making you rethink whether to continue on suggests you're not as passionate about continuing onwards. Take a long hard look before commiting your parents to a remortgage.
UKpplc,
Kidd'o, your rethinking the whole thing through to my mind shows maturity. Rather than seeing your request for advice as a lack of sufficient passion, and enthusiasm for flying, I think you are being quite wise.
Your folks have made a truly magnificent gesture. You all need to be aware though, that it is likely to mean an outlay of nearly £100,000, if a type-rating is needed.
The true cost to them may be even more, if they borrow the lot, and have to pay it back over a number of years.
With the parlous state of our economy, interest rates rising, the spectre of infaltion raising it's ugly head, and the government's rapacious demand for tax revenue leading to an exponential growth in taxes in the future, discretionary spending is under serious threat.
How long our industry can sustain it's growth against that backgorund is not something I'd bet on.
It's ability to do so however, will determine or not whether you land a job at the end of your course, and we haven't even considered how European people will view the concept of global warming, and what effect it will have on them travelling by air in the same numbers.
If Mum and Dad's offer is a gift that's one thing, but if you need to pay them back, will you make it?
The passion and enthusiasm of youngsters like you is being exploited by unscrupulous airline managements to drive down terms and conditions.
The terms and conditions, and salary you enjoy in the future will be a lot less than I have enjoyed over my career.
I believe that you can show air transport is an efficient use of fuel, and if people have to travel, want to travel, and can afford to travel, it can be shown to do less damage than you would think after reading the press. Gordon Brown's tax plans are the reuslt of careful spinning to prepare people to pay more. It is utterly disingenous, but it will happen, and get worse.
What will the future hold for oil supplies? With the present state of UK pensions, you'll be making your own provision most likely, and whilst it doesn't feature in a 20 year old's thinking it means you'll be working for 45 years! Enough oil to sustain that career, is a question just as relevant as the effect of taxation.
It's a tough one Kidd'o, and as an ageing old fart coming to the end of what has been a great and truly career, I don't envy you struggling with this decision.
Would I do it again? in spite of my pessimism earlier the answer is: hell, YES!
The twenty-somethings I fly with are just great. Their passion, hard work, and ability is often fabulous to experience, and I love my days at work.
If you want to come and join us, please do, but don't be naive. This is a hard business, run by ruthless, exploitative people who have assumed the mantle of the Victorain mill owner!
Keep an eye on the future, ensure you have a back-up qualification, and keep it under constant review - be prepared to change career if you have to.
Good luck to you!
Kidd'o, your rethinking the whole thing through to my mind shows maturity. Rather than seeing your request for advice as a lack of sufficient passion, and enthusiasm for flying, I think you are being quite wise.
Your folks have made a truly magnificent gesture. You all need to be aware though, that it is likely to mean an outlay of nearly £100,000, if a type-rating is needed.
The true cost to them may be even more, if they borrow the lot, and have to pay it back over a number of years.
With the parlous state of our economy, interest rates rising, the spectre of infaltion raising it's ugly head, and the government's rapacious demand for tax revenue leading to an exponential growth in taxes in the future, discretionary spending is under serious threat.
How long our industry can sustain it's growth against that backgorund is not something I'd bet on.
It's ability to do so however, will determine or not whether you land a job at the end of your course, and we haven't even considered how European people will view the concept of global warming, and what effect it will have on them travelling by air in the same numbers.
If Mum and Dad's offer is a gift that's one thing, but if you need to pay them back, will you make it?
The passion and enthusiasm of youngsters like you is being exploited by unscrupulous airline managements to drive down terms and conditions.
The terms and conditions, and salary you enjoy in the future will be a lot less than I have enjoyed over my career.
I believe that you can show air transport is an efficient use of fuel, and if people have to travel, want to travel, and can afford to travel, it can be shown to do less damage than you would think after reading the press. Gordon Brown's tax plans are the reuslt of careful spinning to prepare people to pay more. It is utterly disingenous, but it will happen, and get worse.
What will the future hold for oil supplies? With the present state of UK pensions, you'll be making your own provision most likely, and whilst it doesn't feature in a 20 year old's thinking it means you'll be working for 45 years! Enough oil to sustain that career, is a question just as relevant as the effect of taxation.
It's a tough one Kidd'o, and as an ageing old fart coming to the end of what has been a great and truly career, I don't envy you struggling with this decision.
Would I do it again? in spite of my pessimism earlier the answer is: hell, YES!
The twenty-somethings I fly with are just great. Their passion, hard work, and ability is often fabulous to experience, and I love my days at work.
If you want to come and join us, please do, but don't be naive. This is a hard business, run by ruthless, exploitative people who have assumed the mantle of the Victorain mill owner!
Keep an eye on the future, ensure you have a back-up qualification, and keep it under constant review - be prepared to change career if you have to.
Good luck to you!
Sorry to be miserable but your spelling, grammar and construction are terrible. Mummy and Daddy are simply giving you the money to go to Oxford (it would be wouldn't it). Your knowledge of the airline industry and its expansion next year seems based solely on newspaper columns.
Are you sure you really want to be a pilot? How long have you held this ambition? Do you know any? Why, out of all the options, did you choose Oxford? Which airline would you most like to hire you after training and which do you think is most likely?
Cheers
WWW
Are you sure you really want to be a pilot? How long have you held this ambition? Do you know any? Why, out of all the options, did you choose Oxford? Which airline would you most like to hire you after training and which do you think is most likely?
Cheers
WWW
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ukpplc
As has been said you are in a great position and a lucky guy! Be carefull as BSD said about the mortgage of the house lark. What happens if the training goes tits up? What happens if you dont manage to get a job for whatever reason? Will you be able to pay back the loan? Im sure you will have thought about it with your parents but its worth keeping in mind. The £60 grand plus (if I remember rightly) that oxford want is a LOT of money for what they offer.
That aside, this whole thing about the global warming tax. If it is introduced in my opinion, its not going to make a blind bit of difference, if people still want to fly they will because their disposable incomes are high enough to justify it! Why stop going to that lovely warm country for £25/head or whatever it is? (I like it that way too becuase it means us pilots still have jobs and no one finds out about scotland
If you really want to get a job as a pilot, keep at it, dont ever stop, I agree with both sides of the motivation argument here, yes you are wise to stop and think about global warming, but is it really going to affect us as soon as we think, or is it going to affect us at all? The press do talk a load of b******* half the time so why should we believe them? And you should also consider if you are getting cold feet, not for one moment that Iam suggesting you are, its just worth looking at.
Anyway, if you've got the chance to do the training, go and do it and dont worry about global warming...for the moment! Good luck, hope it all goes well!
C250
As has been said you are in a great position and a lucky guy! Be carefull as BSD said about the mortgage of the house lark. What happens if the training goes tits up? What happens if you dont manage to get a job for whatever reason? Will you be able to pay back the loan? Im sure you will have thought about it with your parents but its worth keeping in mind. The £60 grand plus (if I remember rightly) that oxford want is a LOT of money for what they offer.
That aside, this whole thing about the global warming tax. If it is introduced in my opinion, its not going to make a blind bit of difference, if people still want to fly they will because their disposable incomes are high enough to justify it! Why stop going to that lovely warm country for £25/head or whatever it is? (I like it that way too becuase it means us pilots still have jobs and no one finds out about scotland
If you really want to get a job as a pilot, keep at it, dont ever stop, I agree with both sides of the motivation argument here, yes you are wise to stop and think about global warming, but is it really going to affect us as soon as we think, or is it going to affect us at all? The press do talk a load of b******* half the time so why should we believe them? And you should also consider if you are getting cold feet, not for one moment that Iam suggesting you are, its just worth looking at.
Anyway, if you've got the chance to do the training, go and do it and dont worry about global warming...for the moment! Good luck, hope it all goes well!
C250
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If your already have your PPL IMC and NQ why are you going down the intergrated route?
You must be nearly 150 hours by now. And only 25k off having that blue book in your hand.
Even if you parents need to remorgage thier hourse for that its way better than 60k.
You must be nearly 150 hours by now. And only 25k off having that blue book in your hand.
Even if you parents need to remorgage thier hourse for that its way better than 60k.
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I know your in a good possition where your mum and dad has offered to pay, but please dont waste their money, take the cash but spend it wisely.
As for the Global Warming question, I will refer to it as Climate Change. Global Warming is a scam, which sadly some people are begining to believe. Climate Change has always happened, there is nothing we can do to stop it, but the government are taking it as an excuse to charge more taxes. As long as people can afford to pay these, they will fly.
I dont think there will be any changes in air travel in the near future, apart from higher taxes.
If the bird-flu pandemic happens, this will have more of an effect on aviation. i.e. all aircraft grounded to prevent spread, half the population dead etc.
AustralianMade
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davey147
As for the Global Warming question, I will refer to it as Climate Change. Global Warming is a scam, which sadly some people are begining to believe. Climate Change has always happened, there is nothing we can do to stop it, but the government are taking it as an excuse to charge more taxes.
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Because of the extra £10 tax per sector, it is forecast that there will actually be no airlines left trading worldwide in 2008. The Americans are preparing to concrete over the entire Californian Mojave desert to provide room for the 30,000 or more airliners expected to be parked there by 14:30 on 21st December 2008. David Icke has been booked to welcome each and every crew as they land, and will invite them to plant a tree to exculpate their environmental sins. These trees will be irrigated by condensate from the hot air expressed by a captive collection of international politicians kept in a special facility next to the proposed 'Aviation Memorial Forest'.
Employment and Industry Ministries around the world are gearing up to tackle the practically instant and imminent redundancy of somewhere around 25 million jobs currently directly reliant on aviation. Oil-supplying countries are pondering how to deal with the prospect of crude oil sales at $5 or less per barrel. It is rumoured that the Saudi Arabian Government is planning to walk away from all its responsibilities due to expected national insolvency, and that the management of Disneyland Paris have been invited to take over the country. A secret Welsh insolvency expert is believed to have been appointed as adviser to the UN Committee Responsible for Aviation Prevention (UN-CRAP).
Gordon Brown, as the world's single most influential figure in aviation taxation, is expected to accept a Nobel Prize for Services to the Environment, shortly before topping himself when he realises that his government will cease to exist as a result of his actions.
Noddy has been suggested as a suitable replacement.
Employment and Industry Ministries around the world are gearing up to tackle the practically instant and imminent redundancy of somewhere around 25 million jobs currently directly reliant on aviation. Oil-supplying countries are pondering how to deal with the prospect of crude oil sales at $5 or less per barrel. It is rumoured that the Saudi Arabian Government is planning to walk away from all its responsibilities due to expected national insolvency, and that the management of Disneyland Paris have been invited to take over the country. A secret Welsh insolvency expert is believed to have been appointed as adviser to the UN Committee Responsible for Aviation Prevention (UN-CRAP).
Gordon Brown, as the world's single most influential figure in aviation taxation, is expected to accept a Nobel Prize for Services to the Environment, shortly before topping himself when he realises that his government will cease to exist as a result of his actions.
Noddy has been suggested as a suitable replacement.
AustralianMade
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scroggs!
What a pearler, best belly laugh I've had in a week or more.
Was that from your own fertile imagination or the alcohol soaked writings of another?
Either way, I'm glad you posted it and please reserve me a place at the Aviation Memorial Service that will be held sometime after 21st December 2008.
Cheers,
ABX
What a pearler, best belly laugh I've had in a week or more.
Was that from your own fertile imagination or the alcohol soaked writings of another?
Either way, I'm glad you posted it and please reserve me a place at the Aviation Memorial Service that will be held sometime after 21st December 2008.
Cheers,
ABX
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The service is booked for December 17th 2009, and is planned to be held at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, USA. A number of bicycle manufacturers all over the world are gearing up production in order to be ready for the leap in sales predicted for Spring 2009, when many potential attendees will need to leave home in order to arrive at the service in time.
Cruise lines and ferry operators were preparing to help, but have decided to withdraw co-operation in case anyone thinks they'd be adding to Global Warming. An alternative online video-conference memorial service has been proposed, but no-one can work out how they're going to get all the CPUs from the Far East to the computer manufacturers in the USA, let alone how the computers will be distributed to potential participants.
A suggestion that people may participate by sending messages by carrier pigeon is being taken seriously at this time. Only methane-free carrier pigeons will be eligible, however. Gordon Brown is proposing a tax of £3.2 bn per carrier pigeon.
Stop Press A group of subversives from an organisation called Flight International are claiming that the death of aviation as we know it is a fabrication of The Guardian, and are suggesting that people ought to have more bleeding sense and start engaging brains before committing crap to keyboard!
Cruise lines and ferry operators were preparing to help, but have decided to withdraw co-operation in case anyone thinks they'd be adding to Global Warming. An alternative online video-conference memorial service has been proposed, but no-one can work out how they're going to get all the CPUs from the Far East to the computer manufacturers in the USA, let alone how the computers will be distributed to potential participants.
A suggestion that people may participate by sending messages by carrier pigeon is being taken seriously at this time. Only methane-free carrier pigeons will be eligible, however. Gordon Brown is proposing a tax of £3.2 bn per carrier pigeon.
Stop Press A group of subversives from an organisation called Flight International are claiming that the death of aviation as we know it is a fabrication of The Guardian, and are suggesting that people ought to have more bleeding sense and start engaging brains before committing crap to keyboard!
AustralianMade
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Hmmm ...
It seems ukpplc et al, that the future of the aviation industry world wide looks pretty secure for at least the next few years, ie., the entire working life of a young ukpplc.
For your benefit ukpplc since you are a new addition to Proon, click on the word "scroggs" in the blue box to the left of his posts and view his public profile, you will see that apart from being a Proon Mod he is pretty well qualified to post on such topics.
Cheers ukpplc, as before, I wish you well.
ABX
It seems ukpplc et al, that the future of the aviation industry world wide looks pretty secure for at least the next few years, ie., the entire working life of a young ukpplc.
For your benefit ukpplc since you are a new addition to Proon, click on the word "scroggs" in the blue box to the left of his posts and view his public profile, you will see that apart from being a Proon Mod he is pretty well qualified to post on such topics.
Cheers ukpplc, as before, I wish you well.
ABX
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HOWEVER...
It does sound to me like you have cold feet, maybe just a little. Be sure you want to go for this before you sign anything binding. I'd strongly recommend a degree of equivalent as a backup option, get your Class One medical done ASAP. If you're in the middle of a course (degree, etc), finish it first.
I was damned well sure when I leapt into Integrated training at the age of 26 as I have used a house to secure the loan needed to fund it. Between finishing University I've done a brief stint as Cabin Crew (Thomsonfly, which really nailed down flying as the career for me) while flying as a hobby, and many hard-graft people-facing roles. Clearly the customer is the most important part (even though you may regard them as self-loading freight) and the image you present overall goes a long way, and the flying skills are part of an overall managerial role.
I love flying, and I also love the results a successful team can produce. I would recommend cabin crewing for anyone umming and arring about a career in the front. It's significantly easier to get into if you can present yourself well and have a good manner with people, although the pay with some carriers is low.
If you're 100% and have backups (to cover loss of license/medical), go for it, otherwise ensure you have backups available and reassess your options. With your considerable progress made already, Waypoint maybe a better option rather than a full Integrated Ab-initio course. It'll save your parents' money!
I've just regurgitated this in limited time. If I've made errors, omissions or I'm just *wrong* feel free to correct. I'm still trying to secure the vital first job, and have an interview with Bacon on Wednesday, so I'm certain other realities of the industry will reveal themselves in time.
Good luck!
Graeme
BTW: Scroggs you silly s*d... thanks for posting that!
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To the guy with the IMC and going to Oxford, has El Nino cooked the brainwaves too? Save yourself subsidising the glossy full page ads in Flyer and Pilot Magazines, get your CPL/IR and 14 exams done, pay for a type rating and trust me, providing you do you homework, start networking now and do a little forecasting you will be in an infinitely stronger position than any Oxford graduate by next December, you're parents will be £15k-20k better off and you'll be in charge of your own career direction.
Scroggs unholstering 6 barrels of sarcasm and off loading, whatever next.
Scroggs unholstering 6 barrels of sarcasm and off loading, whatever next.
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You're no fun, Scammers! A man needs an outlet after a frustrating day getting back from JFK, finally being baulked by a BA slowing early on the approach at LHR and causing a go-round - which then meant a remote stand vice a gate. A little inventive journalism eases the blood pressure somewhat!
Anyway, I'm famous now (Sunday Express yesterday), so I can say wo'ever I want, innit.
Scroggs
Anyway, I'm famous now (Sunday Express yesterday), so I can say wo'ever I want, innit.
Scroggs
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I agree with all of the above.
As already said global warming is a couple words used by the goverment to try and justify squeezing a few more £'s out of our pockets and put into theirs. I'm sure the money they make out of environmental tax does not go towards any 'green' developments, nor does it stop the average traveller from flying.
UKPPLC
Have a look at the real big picture of avaition and you will see the media and goverment are full of s**t.
For Starters
The airline industry is growing at a steady rate of 2.5% like it has been doing since the 1990's. Budget airlines like Easy are growing at 15% because they are winning business away from other parts of the market as well as maintaining the overall avaition growth.
Aviation is believed to contribute 3% of emmisions, by 2015 or 2020 (can't remember) it is forecasted to still only be 5%. Now compare this to cars at 20%, Power stations cant remember the exact figure but sure it was about 40% or higher.
Then you have east asia growing at alarming rates and don't seem to have much regard for CO2 output.
There are loads more stats, but these are just a few I read a few months ago, By no means am I saying they are correct but this is what I sourced from FLight International and Various airline and aviation web pages.
I hope this helps you start understanding and envokes you to start researching deeper into the bigger picture.
good luck with your decision.
As already said global warming is a couple words used by the goverment to try and justify squeezing a few more £'s out of our pockets and put into theirs. I'm sure the money they make out of environmental tax does not go towards any 'green' developments, nor does it stop the average traveller from flying.
UKPPLC
Have a look at the real big picture of avaition and you will see the media and goverment are full of s**t.
For Starters
The airline industry is growing at a steady rate of 2.5% like it has been doing since the 1990's. Budget airlines like Easy are growing at 15% because they are winning business away from other parts of the market as well as maintaining the overall avaition growth.
Aviation is believed to contribute 3% of emmisions, by 2015 or 2020 (can't remember) it is forecasted to still only be 5%. Now compare this to cars at 20%, Power stations cant remember the exact figure but sure it was about 40% or higher.
Then you have east asia growing at alarming rates and don't seem to have much regard for CO2 output.
There are loads more stats, but these are just a few I read a few months ago, By no means am I saying they are correct but this is what I sourced from FLight International and Various airline and aviation web pages.
I hope this helps you start understanding and envokes you to start researching deeper into the bigger picture.
good luck with your decision.
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According to the DfT, the airline industry is currently growing at 4.25%!!
Also, in the UK, airlines produce 20% of transport related emissions (DfT) and 13% globally (IPCC). The often quoted 2% and 3% include all emissions and not just transport related (IPCC).
Regardless, as any Ape descended life form should realise, with just a cursory examination of the so called 'facts' behind the headlines (argument active in Jetblast), it is all a load of baloney.
Also, in the UK, airlines produce 20% of transport related emissions (DfT) and 13% globally (IPCC). The often quoted 2% and 3% include all emissions and not just transport related (IPCC).
Regardless, as any Ape descended life form should realise, with just a cursory examination of the so called 'facts' behind the headlines (argument active in Jetblast), it is all a load of baloney.
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Whilst doing a bit of this 
and a bit of 
and a bit more and still I'm a tryandbe.
My depression is increasing especially with the wannabe threads
However, then I stumbled on this thread. I am now 100% recovered and and so pleased that there are really people on this forum who actually start threads like this. To the originator I applaud you for being a complete numpty!! I'd give up now as your determination seems to be lacking! Hope Daddy's money is well spent!
PS Well done Scroggs,you've cheered up a manic depressive!
and a bit of and a bit more and still I'm a tryandbe. My depression is increasing especially with the wannabe threads
However, then I stumbled on this thread. I am now 100% recovered and
and so pleased that there are really people on this forum who actually start threads like this. To the originator I applaud you for being a complete numpty!! I'd give up now as your determination seems to be lacking! Hope Daddy's money is well spent!PS Well done Scroggs,you've cheered up a manic depressive!
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Well is that bandwagon big enough for all of you?
I know you're all pilots and I'm sure it's just fabulous, darling, but why is it so disgraceful for someone young asking what the prospects are for the aviation industry?
WWW
And so what has he just done here? Has he not just asked for a second opinion?
SinBin
Who do you think you are? (rhetorical, don't answer back). You have no idea what's going through his head, how determined he is, and what he's feeling like at the moment. How can you jest at someone for asking about their future? Have you never had a moment where you doubted yourself?
ukpplc asked a question;
followed by
These are perfectly reasonable questions to ask. How are these ridiculous questions?
Don't act like like children. What you choose to infer from his previous statement is your own business and is not subject to unnecessarily scathing speculation.
This forum, as scroggs constantly reminds us, is here to serve a distinct purpose. It is moderated to trim away the scruffy edges that people so evidently want to create. And another thing scroggs, all due respect to the moderator, but are you not supposed to be working for the benefit of the forum, not using pprune as mild stress relief?
Dave
I know you're all pilots and I'm sure it's just fabulous, darling, but why is it so disgraceful for someone young asking what the prospects are for the aviation industry?
WWW
Your knowledge of the airline industry and its expansion next year seems based solely on newspaper columns.
SinBin
To the originator I applaud you for being a complete numpty!! I'd give up now as your determination seems to be lacking! Hope Daddy's money is well spent!
ukpplc asked a question;
What do you think the future holds for pilots in the next ten years with regards to the global warming issues that are plastered all over the news channels most nights?
What are the possibilites of me landing myself in a F.O's position somewhere in the UK in a years time straight from ATPL school?
Don't act like like children. What you choose to infer from his previous statement is your own business and is not subject to unnecessarily scathing speculation.
This forum, as scroggs constantly reminds us, is here to serve a distinct purpose. It is moderated to trim away the scruffy edges that people so evidently want to create. And another thing scroggs, all due respect to the moderator, but are you not supposed to be working for the benefit of the forum, not using pprune as mild stress relief?
Dave
Last edited by Kerosine; 16th Jan 2007 at 14:56.