The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Yes, I am on a permanent contract but went through 18 months of flexiscrew.
When the latest pay deal came out Balpa had negotiated a pay freeze for flexiscrew for another 2 years. For some reason it is acceptable for us to accept a pay drop over the next 2 years. What kind of union negotiates that?
Having been in the industry for a few years I now realise that self interest rules, don't expect anyone to watch your back and certainly don't expect the 'friendly' management to do anything except try and screw you.
The communication all FO's have received in the last 48 hours about swaps is testament to that.
When the latest pay deal came out Balpa had negotiated a pay freeze for flexiscrew for another 2 years. For some reason it is acceptable for us to accept a pay drop over the next 2 years. What kind of union negotiates that?
Having been in the industry for a few years I now realise that self interest rules, don't expect anyone to watch your back and certainly don't expect the 'friendly' management to do anything except try and screw you.
The communication all FO's have received in the last 48 hours about swaps is testament to that.
Last edited by razor27; 18th Mar 2012 at 12:01. Reason: Changed information which is incorrect
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All of this aside average punter, try and see the wood for the trees. Contracts and bases etc are all fine detail when compared with:
1. Can you finance the training?
2. Can you take the risk?
3. Will you pass all the training?
4. Will you be a good boy or girl and keep your head down so CTC don't get angry with you? I.e. accept everything they say to you with no reply from your side other than 'yes sir, no sir - I'm not a customer, I'm a very lucky boy or girl sir'. In other words you do not have a right to dissatisfaction - some people can't cope with that. This may be the same at all FTOs - I only trained at CTC so I don't know.
5. Why do you really want this?
6. If you don't train what will be the effect on you? Could you accept it?
Don't try and predict the future - the industry, what's on offer and your flexibility WILL change for the better or worse when out the other side of training. Though you may think you're being sensible asking what you're asking you are in fact being irrelevant.
It's all just my opinion, not advice - don't look for advice on here unless it is targeted, specifically through PM from people with a proven track record in posting.
1. Can you finance the training?
2. Can you take the risk?
3. Will you pass all the training?
4. Will you be a good boy or girl and keep your head down so CTC don't get angry with you? I.e. accept everything they say to you with no reply from your side other than 'yes sir, no sir - I'm not a customer, I'm a very lucky boy or girl sir'. In other words you do not have a right to dissatisfaction - some people can't cope with that. This may be the same at all FTOs - I only trained at CTC so I don't know.
5. Why do you really want this?
6. If you don't train what will be the effect on you? Could you accept it?
Don't try and predict the future - the industry, what's on offer and your flexibility WILL change for the better or worse when out the other side of training. Though you may think you're being sensible asking what you're asking you are in fact being irrelevant.
It's all just my opinion, not advice - don't look for advice on here unless it is targeted, specifically through PM from people with a proven track record in posting.
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The funny thing is by their very actions flexicrew are accepting and allowing it to happen. Those who put a priority on money and security have taken a Permanant mainland contract at the first instance or gone to other airlines on a Permanant contract. Those who have made it their highest priority to be in the uk are financially far worse off, a month away from no job, still being subsidised by someone and are perpetually complaining. A few are unecessarily bankrupt. Make your choice and live with it. As a caveat - I know there are one or two who need to be in the uk, at home for genuine personal reasons ( ill relatives and new offspring) and I sympathise with their situation.
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Just got back from the CTC Open Day... Got some time on the 737 Sim and allowed my parents a better insight into the CTC Wings Cadet program.
There's a lot of negative talk here about how Pilots are forced to slave away for long hours on the flexicrew program. Today I was informed that the holding pool is empty and every pilot has been given a full job with the airlines, direct entry I think.
Anyone else there today?
There's a lot of negative talk here about how Pilots are forced to slave away for long hours on the flexicrew program. Today I was informed that the holding pool is empty and every pilot has been given a full job with the airlines, direct entry I think.
Anyone else there today?
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Define "full job". Define "Direct Entry". I think you are using terms that totally misrepresent the present situation at best. At worst, you make a very inaccurate statement.
Going to a CTC Open Day is likely to get you further information. That information is highly unlikely to be impartial and unbiased. The quality of that information is partially dependent upon the quality and precision of the questions asked, and heavily dependent upon the interests of those giving the answers.
Flexicrew is not "a full job". Nor is it "direct entry".
It is fixed term (three years), zero hours contracting.
It is not a permanent contract with fixed salary, benefits and full employment law protections. To get that you must land a permanent contract. In the UK, these simply are not available in easyJet.
As a Flexicrew pilot you are not employed by easyJet, you are employed by CTC. On a zero hours contract you will never be made redundant due to the airline not needing you. You will simply not be flown and therefore you will not earn any money. Try claiming benefits with that contract. Try paying your loan back with that contract in a low hour month, or string of them. Winter is cold. Colder when you can't pay all your bills. Try having a reliable second job on a random roster.
Possible changes in the pipeline at easyJet does not improve that situation. It simply paves the way for more and worse. The only way out is to get a job at a different operator or apply for a permanent continental contract if they become available again and you have the required hours, an acceptable training record and can pass the assessment process (which is into its second iteration).
Believing at face value what CTC tells you about its programme is naive. The serious posts on here about this programme, where it leads and the terms and conditions in eJ are generally easy to spot. And yes, they are broadly negative.
A major reason for this is because easyJet has decided to adopt essentially cut throat, short term, exploitative practices against its own employees across all European operations in a direct attempt to lower it's crew costs. It publicly committed to this strategy in the 2011 results announcement to the markets, in it's 2010 strategy announcements to staff and the markets and in it's 2008 strategy announcements, to name a few instances.
The rostering and lifestyle package that the management released is designed to achieve exactly that: more work for less money over the next four years, plus an increasing dependence on variable productivity/performance related pay which will force greater compliance and pliability onto the workforce over the years, while undermining the older pilots T&Cs with the newer guys T&Cs. The Company is re-engineering from the bottom up and the top down simultaneously. It is trying to force the guys at the top to vote in worsening conditions at the bottom by witholding their pay rise until they agree to a total package which shafts the new guys. In the medium to long term, the new guys' terms will come to dominate, and they will be so far behind the old terms that no union will be able to play catch up, least of all BALPA, the union that helped bring in the Flexicrew contracts, has achieved nothing in the last 2.5 years to stop or improve those contracts AND actually recommended a down grading of UK First Officer terms that it never revisited even though it was conned into the down grade.
easyJet growth is slowing down. The business is fairly mature. To get further increases in profits the options must include: cutting internal costs, some of the biggest being wages, benefits and pensions; better network management i.e. deploying aircraft on the highest yield, highest load routes, which inherently requires as much flexibility as can be achieved, a major block to which is people, their contracts and rights.
Trouble is, where else are you going to go?
Oh yeah, they know that too.
Going to a CTC Open Day is likely to get you further information. That information is highly unlikely to be impartial and unbiased. The quality of that information is partially dependent upon the quality and precision of the questions asked, and heavily dependent upon the interests of those giving the answers.
Flexicrew is not "a full job". Nor is it "direct entry".
It is fixed term (three years), zero hours contracting.
It is not a permanent contract with fixed salary, benefits and full employment law protections. To get that you must land a permanent contract. In the UK, these simply are not available in easyJet.
As a Flexicrew pilot you are not employed by easyJet, you are employed by CTC. On a zero hours contract you will never be made redundant due to the airline not needing you. You will simply not be flown and therefore you will not earn any money. Try claiming benefits with that contract. Try paying your loan back with that contract in a low hour month, or string of them. Winter is cold. Colder when you can't pay all your bills. Try having a reliable second job on a random roster.
Possible changes in the pipeline at easyJet does not improve that situation. It simply paves the way for more and worse. The only way out is to get a job at a different operator or apply for a permanent continental contract if they become available again and you have the required hours, an acceptable training record and can pass the assessment process (which is into its second iteration).
Believing at face value what CTC tells you about its programme is naive. The serious posts on here about this programme, where it leads and the terms and conditions in eJ are generally easy to spot. And yes, they are broadly negative.
A major reason for this is because easyJet has decided to adopt essentially cut throat, short term, exploitative practices against its own employees across all European operations in a direct attempt to lower it's crew costs. It publicly committed to this strategy in the 2011 results announcement to the markets, in it's 2010 strategy announcements to staff and the markets and in it's 2008 strategy announcements, to name a few instances.
The rostering and lifestyle package that the management released is designed to achieve exactly that: more work for less money over the next four years, plus an increasing dependence on variable productivity/performance related pay which will force greater compliance and pliability onto the workforce over the years, while undermining the older pilots T&Cs with the newer guys T&Cs. The Company is re-engineering from the bottom up and the top down simultaneously. It is trying to force the guys at the top to vote in worsening conditions at the bottom by witholding their pay rise until they agree to a total package which shafts the new guys. In the medium to long term, the new guys' terms will come to dominate, and they will be so far behind the old terms that no union will be able to play catch up, least of all BALPA, the union that helped bring in the Flexicrew contracts, has achieved nothing in the last 2.5 years to stop or improve those contracts AND actually recommended a down grading of UK First Officer terms that it never revisited even though it was conned into the down grade.
easyJet growth is slowing down. The business is fairly mature. To get further increases in profits the options must include: cutting internal costs, some of the biggest being wages, benefits and pensions; better network management i.e. deploying aircraft on the highest yield, highest load routes, which inherently requires as much flexibility as can be achieved, a major block to which is people, their contracts and rights.
Trouble is, where else are you going to go?
Oh yeah, they know that too.
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People need to digest what’s been said here and not believe the CTC spin. While the hold pool may be "empty" at the moment (despite there being people in it!!!!) it’s about to fill up again as the contract FO's used for summer 2012 will be returned to CTC at the end of summer and therefore back into the hold pool. They will probably be taken on again in summer 2013 when I bet the time to full time contract starts ticking from the start!
At EZY Commands are slowing down. Growth has stalled. There are rumours of things to come which may stop real term expansion in pilot numbers for a few years. Do not believe all that CTC tell you. Listen to what’s being said on here. It’s all good honest stuff.
Well apart from what Razor said about Capt’s/BALPA having no interest in defending cadets. Everything else he said was correct apart from that! To be honest razor it’s that attitude which p***es off a lot of skippers. Many will strike tomorrow to defend them and increase their terms and conditions. To get them in as permanent FO's. If BALPA could call a strike over it legally they would. We are hamstrung by UK legislation. At no point have they stated they do not care about flexiscrew contracts. Quite the opposite.
If people would stop signing these stupid contracts it would change. You cannot arrive at the airline now and blame Capts for this. That’s ridiculous. They knew/know the score. If you don’t its your own bloody fault. You cannot blame Capts for this. Its supply and demand. While lemmings keep throwing themselves at it then it will never change no matter how hard BALPA fight.
I suggest you blame BALPA and Capt’s less and market forces (or the people taking these contracts). Razor, when you started you will have been well aware of the situation. So you signed up knowing the score. How can you blame us for the predicament you placed yourself in???? It’s your attitude that makes Capts think, well sod you then. That attitude is starting to bubble up somewhat and is brought about by people like you. I would still strike to protect flexiscrew tomorrow if we could.
I suggest you turn your frustration towards the real source of the problem not your colleagues. As you probably can tell you have irked me somewhat....!!!!
At EZY Commands are slowing down. Growth has stalled. There are rumours of things to come which may stop real term expansion in pilot numbers for a few years. Do not believe all that CTC tell you. Listen to what’s being said on here. It’s all good honest stuff.
Well apart from what Razor said about Capt’s/BALPA having no interest in defending cadets. Everything else he said was correct apart from that! To be honest razor it’s that attitude which p***es off a lot of skippers. Many will strike tomorrow to defend them and increase their terms and conditions. To get them in as permanent FO's. If BALPA could call a strike over it legally they would. We are hamstrung by UK legislation. At no point have they stated they do not care about flexiscrew contracts. Quite the opposite.
If people would stop signing these stupid contracts it would change. You cannot arrive at the airline now and blame Capts for this. That’s ridiculous. They knew/know the score. If you don’t its your own bloody fault. You cannot blame Capts for this. Its supply and demand. While lemmings keep throwing themselves at it then it will never change no matter how hard BALPA fight.
I suggest you blame BALPA and Capt’s less and market forces (or the people taking these contracts). Razor, when you started you will have been well aware of the situation. So you signed up knowing the score. How can you blame us for the predicament you placed yourself in???? It’s your attitude that makes Capts think, well sod you then. That attitude is starting to bubble up somewhat and is brought about by people like you. I would still strike to protect flexiscrew tomorrow if we could.
I suggest you turn your frustration towards the real source of the problem not your colleagues. As you probably can tell you have irked me somewhat....!!!!
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La Amistad
In response to your post I apologise and recognise that the vast majority of Captains are on our side and are as frustrated as we are over the seemingly permanent spiral of decline in terms and conditions.
Although it is not an excuse my post was made on a day when I had overheard a comment in the crew room about flexicrew 'cadets' which I found at best 'frustrating'. I realise that most people don't feel that way and I shouldn't have vented on here. Apologies.
In response to your post I apologise and recognise that the vast majority of Captains are on our side and are as frustrated as we are over the seemingly permanent spiral of decline in terms and conditions.
Although it is not an excuse my post was made on a day when I had overheard a comment in the crew room about flexicrew 'cadets' which I found at best 'frustrating'. I realise that most people don't feel that way and I shouldn't have vented on here. Apologies.
Last edited by razor27; 18th Mar 2012 at 12:01. Reason: I have changed my previous post.
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LOL Im still doing my AS Levels... I went to this open day but I have still got a good few years left of my education. I can evaluate how the industry is doing in this time and see if the T&C's at CTC improve.
I was highly aware of the smoke and mirrors, I was just simply stating what was told to me at the open day. I did speak to one cadet though who stated that he had already had a job offer with monarch and he hadn't even left to go to New Zealand yet. He did tell me the promised "High Tech" facilities are now suddenly unavailable and they have been provided with alternate "crap" housing.
May I just enquire as to whether BA FPP cadets were placed onto permanent contracts or flexicrew? Im sure its stated around here somewhere, but these threads are getting ridiculously massive now.
I was highly aware of the smoke and mirrors, I was just simply stating what was told to me at the open day. I did speak to one cadet though who stated that he had already had a job offer with monarch and he hadn't even left to go to New Zealand yet. He did tell me the promised "High Tech" facilities are now suddenly unavailable and they have been provided with alternate "crap" housing.
May I just enquire as to whether BA FPP cadets were placed onto permanent contracts or flexicrew? Im sure its stated around here somewhere, but these threads are getting ridiculously massive now.
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The BA FPP had absolutely nothing to do with flexicrew. It wouldn't have been nearly as competitive if it did.
I know you young guys will want to believe that it would all work out well going through CTC. If you are even considering it you must trawl through the last year of this thread at very minimum. It's not much effort if you're looking into giving CTC £90K plus a huge cut of what you should be earning should you end up on flexicrew.
I know you young guys will want to believe that it would all work out well going through CTC. If you are even considering it you must trawl through the last year of this thread at very minimum. It's not much effort if you're looking into giving CTC £90K plus a huge cut of what you should be earning should you end up on flexicrew.
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Maybe CTC decided to tell him about the 20 cadets that just got selected this week for Qatar, as they were the latest to be selected and have been offered a permanent job etc...
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This is indeed what happened. They also tried pointing out that the best jobs are with the middle/far-east airlines as they are expanding massively.
I just hope that they too are disgusted at the potential conditions imposed regarding contract work and start to offer some permenant/Direct Entry jobs to cadets.
I just hope that they too are disgusted at the potential conditions imposed regarding contract work and start to offer some permenant/Direct Entry jobs to cadets.
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Originally Posted by kishanp
I just hope that they too are disgusted at the potential conditions imposed regarding contract work and start to offer some permenant/Direct Entry jobs to cadets.
Aside from 20 cadets going to Qatar and maybe some being able to apply to Cathay on their own behalf, what Middle-Eastern and Far-Eastern carriers are they referring to? It's all well and good saying that there is growth in these areas, but the lion's share of resulting jobs are going to go to nationals going through the airlines' own cadet streams (most Far-Eastern carriers have ab-initio schemes just for nationals, as do Emirates and Etihad in the ME), not CTC graduates.
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La Amistad - Some captains care, some don't. How many there are of each, I don't know.
BALPA itself has used the "Cadets do it to themselves... if the lemmings line up, it's their fault... stop signing up for the scheme and it will go away" arguments.
What it has not done and refuses to do is go for representation with the agencies. It has wasted 2.5 years on this action when delaying the effort makes it harder to do.
It does offer support to individual contractors but it has no bargaining power. This is as much to do with its own choice of actions as anything else. It is not trying to get bargaining power.
What it is now doing is going for what looks like an easy win. But at incredibly high future cost. It is trying to actually seek the legitimisation of pay-per-hour contracts INSIDE easyJet, and it is pursuing a strategy of negotiation with the company whereby current permanent pilots may have to vote in such terms while they simultaneously vote for their own pay rise.
Such few words have been written in response to direct questions and criticisms about this scenario as to make BALPA's position on the Flexicrew matter seem lacking.
The trouble is, cadets are the ones with the least knowledge, the least power and the most to lose. They ave a part to play in this, but they are not the only key players.
Real information about how crap the situation is in easyJet is only coming out here in recent times. And it's only a few who post it.
It's easy to know what should be known when you're on the inside, and I can say now that even those on the inside don't all know the full picture.
BALPA itself has used the "Cadets do it to themselves... if the lemmings line up, it's their fault... stop signing up for the scheme and it will go away" arguments.
What it has not done and refuses to do is go for representation with the agencies. It has wasted 2.5 years on this action when delaying the effort makes it harder to do.
It does offer support to individual contractors but it has no bargaining power. This is as much to do with its own choice of actions as anything else. It is not trying to get bargaining power.
What it is now doing is going for what looks like an easy win. But at incredibly high future cost. It is trying to actually seek the legitimisation of pay-per-hour contracts INSIDE easyJet, and it is pursuing a strategy of negotiation with the company whereby current permanent pilots may have to vote in such terms while they simultaneously vote for their own pay rise.
Such few words have been written in response to direct questions and criticisms about this scenario as to make BALPA's position on the Flexicrew matter seem lacking.
The trouble is, cadets are the ones with the least knowledge, the least power and the most to lose. They ave a part to play in this, but they are not the only key players.
Real information about how crap the situation is in easyJet is only coming out here in recent times. And it's only a few who post it.
It's easy to know what should be known when you're on the inside, and I can say now that even those on the inside don't all know the full picture.
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Hi does anyone know (previous Cadets) if you have to arrange and pay for your transportation to and from clearways and hamilton airport everyday, is there a shuttle every day or do you have to pay for petrol?
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Depends, there is a bus that shuttles back now and again, although you're given a hire car from NZ day 1 until the next set of cadets arrive from the UK - this can be around 3-4 weeks. After that period the hire car goes to the next set of cadets to arrive and you need to sort out your own car. Usually a group of cadets will buy a 2nd hand car together.. Average price range cadets pay NZ $ 1000-4000. Although this depends on what you're looking for.
A lot of cars are bought from cadets finishing in NZ by cadets who have just arrived.
You pay for your own petrol.
A lot of cars are bought from cadets finishing in NZ by cadets who have just arrived.
You pay for your own petrol.
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I'm afraid so, there's only 1, possibly 2 left I think... And they're only really used by either staff, or to transport the Japanese cadets to and from training / shops etc...
To be honest, having your own car (OK, between 2 or 3 of you) is great as you share costs, and if you're prudent you can pick up a cheap deal and not lose too much money, and in some cases make money when you sell ! Sometimes a group of cadets will buy 2 cars between them, and sometimes an individual cadet will buy a car to themselves, it depends on your budget but it's not too much of a headache; plenty of cheap rust buckets about
Petrol isn't as expensive as the UK, tax and a w.o.f (MOT) is relatively cheap unless your car is broken, and insurance is very cheap compared to the UK.
To be honest, having your own car (OK, between 2 or 3 of you) is great as you share costs, and if you're prudent you can pick up a cheap deal and not lose too much money, and in some cases make money when you sell ! Sometimes a group of cadets will buy 2 cars between them, and sometimes an individual cadet will buy a car to themselves, it depends on your budget but it's not too much of a headache; plenty of cheap rust buckets about
Petrol isn't as expensive as the UK, tax and a w.o.f (MOT) is relatively cheap unless your car is broken, and insurance is very cheap compared to the UK.
After that period the hire car goes to the next set of cadets to arrive and you need to sort out your own car.
That said, that Platz (a Japanese second-hand import on a Yaris chassis, for those who are interested) was by far and away, and without a shadow of a doubt, the worst car I have ever driven by a long way.
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Yeah due to CP's now starting every 2 months rather than every month, they can be larger groups compared to the old system; sometimes CP's can hold over 20 cadets. But after ground-school at Nursling each CP is split into two groups, and travel to NZ a month apart.. So having 1 or 2 hire cars depending on the size of each group for the first month in NZ works out OK.. And then when your mates arrive, you go out and get a nice 1993 Nissan with bundles of "character". 