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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 21st Aug 2010, 07:12
  #3701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: on the street
Posts: 37
Yes most of the CTC/OAA cadets HAVE been trained well. At least they WERE trained well. There have been a lot of changes to the way CTC/OAA train due to financial restraints. They now have to make money and their training and quality has dropped dramatically. Although they will still quote previous pass rates etc. So you may not see the decline for a little while.
Yes they WERE selected. In 2006 only 1% got through the selection and that 1% could get an unsecured loan from the banks... since the GFC banks will only loan to those that can afford to loose their house. The selection is now one question... Who's paying for the course.
The cadet numbers dropped dramatically until CTC/OAA decided to take anyone that could pay or get a secured loan.
Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.
systematically is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2010, 09:39
  #3702 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 788
From the results I've seen recently there has been no decline in pass rates.

You are making some fairly strong allegations against CTC's training standards.
In fact, you are trotting out a random bag-full of statements, some of which true - bankruptcy, parents selling things - and some downright libelous, as above. It just sounds like an uncontrolled expulsion of ranting and it makes you look silly.

As many have said in the past and as was recently hashed out through the letters column in the BALPA magazine, cadets are not selected on their ability to pay.
The African Dude is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2010, 18:45
  #3703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264
Just like African Dude, I haven't seen it either, but if I do I will be the first to say so.

All commercial businesses have to make money. All of them! It doesn't matter if you are an airline, a flight training school or run the corner shop. The one simple reason that businesses go bust is that they run out of cash. That may be prevented by borrowing, drawing on reserves, selling assets or new investment in the short term. Ultimately though it is only prevented by making a profit, and that profit only occurs when the income exceeds the costs on a sustainable basis.

CTC is an establishment that has a double edged customer base. On the one hand it sells its training product to individuals. Over the years that product portfolio has increased and broadened. Undoubtably expansion into modular products has been as a result of the difficult trading environment, but nevertheless it will only be successful if it can entice enough customers to buy that product. Similarly with the cadet and to some extent the integrated course schemes, there are cheaper ways of licence aquisition. It will only attract candidates to these schemes if the two driving forces remain in place, they being quality of training and the prospect of airline placement at the conclusion. In the case of the latter, this has always been one of CTC's "ace cards." This is also the second edge of this companies customer base. It sells the finished product to the various airlines as those same airlines inexperienced cadet base. This product must remain attractive to those airline customers if it is to succeed at any level. Obviously CTC know this and it is difficult to imagine they would jeopardise that business by allowing or promoting an inferior product.

As far as financing is concerned, it is not their fault that unsecured commercial borrowing is no longer an option for their selected candidates. That is just a reality of the banking environment at this juncture in time. Lending all around the world has been significantly tightened up, and the financial instruments that might have been available a couple of years ago are now simply history. Given that either the training bond or the cost of the course still have to be paid (business not a charity,) only those candidates that can afford the respective courses will be able to participate.
At borrowing requirements in excess of 25,000 this will normally require secured borrowing. Even so, there are few lenders who will entertain lending for this purpose as there is no tangible (realisable) asset being aquired with the loan advanced. For that reason a property is normally required to secure the loan against. Unless the candidates themselves are particularly wealthy, it will also often require a guarantor to provide that security.

In the case of the guarantor, it is usual for the security to be encumbered (mortgaged) to no more than 60% of its total worth including the funds to be advanced for this purpose. In addition the guarantor must provide evidence that in the event of the borrowers default, they themselves have sufficient income and affordability to assume the repayment schedule. In other words it is not a case of "loosing" (sic) their house, it is a case of the repayment schedule becoming a liability on the guarantor. Only in the event of the guarantors default would the security be invoked.

This is no different to any other secured loan where a guarantor provides the surity. It cannot be done without the guarantors agreement. The guarantor must show evidence of affordability as if they were applying for the loan in their own right.

Undoubtably the funding criteria has reduced the number of potential (realistic) applicants to this and similar programmes. Undoubtably there would also be a modification in the selection criteria where funding becomes a more significant issue. However if the quality of the end product were to be reduced, the airline customers would quickly turn their backs on it, and the provider cannot afford for that to happen. In essence the training standard must be maintained and likely improved. In this situation, changes and streamlining to reduce costs and waste would be inevitable. Adaptability and innovation would be key ingredients of any companies survival in difficult trading markets. That might be perceived as a lowering of standards, but in reality is often a case of maintaining or improving them.

Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.
Speaking as a parent, I have to take issue with the word "anything." Parents have a 20+ year appenticeship of sacrificing for their offspring. The last 7 or so involving an individual who has often demonstrated their focused contempt and loathing for said parent as a result of hormonal imbalance. Whilst it is certainly true that they would be raptured at the thought of their offspring achieving something positive and leaving home, that same home has been expensively aquired, and not likely to be sacrificed purely on the demonstrated wit, wisdom and enthusiasm of the fruit of their loins. Believe me!

Cadets may in a few cases have become bankrupt, but that is an entirely seperate issue to their guarantors. Bankruptcy affects many individuals, and will be more prevalent amongst people who have large individual borrowings and little or no income. That isn't being glib, since few people are more than a couple of pay checks away from being in very difficult circumstances. Of course this is why lenders now require guarantors and security. The same holds true in many aspects of financial commitment, not simply flight training candidates.

In summary, busineses 10 years ago, now, and in 10 years time will still need to make a profit in order to survive. Adaptability, change and innovation will be the key to that survival. Quality and the perception of quality will need to be ensured if the customers are to keep coming back.

If you are selling an expensive product, be it a Ferrari, a luxury cruise, or a course of flight training, it is a limited market place. Any business in this marketplace knows its survival will depend on the quality, cachet, and desirability of the product being maintained.

Oh yes, and parents are not usually as stupid as their offspring have grown up believing, something they in turn will eventually discover for themselves.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2010, 21:44
  #3704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 31
I wouldn't worry too much for CTC guys... For having been at their training center in Nursling I can tell they are very very very busy.
People tend to forget that AB-initio pilot training is only a part of the business. They type rate HUNDREDS of guys every year (recently some 737 TR for Oman Air and Viking).
When you know that they didn't pay A PENNY for the 737 sim, guess how much profit they make of it.
Not to forget the hundreds of cadets going through the A320 TR from whom CTC gets a hell lot of money..

I wouldn't worry too much for the welfare of the business, things are working well for them.

As I said earlier, I found the training absolutely outstanding I simply think the price is for many an obstacle, which shouldn't be (and wasn't back in the days!!)
The flying bob is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2010, 23:19
  #3705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: A stones throw away...
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You are quite correct CTC did not pay a penny for the 737-800 sim, however they do not own it, Rockwell Collins still do.

CTC do have to pay RC everytime the sim us used on an 'by hour basis'... I'm sure they are not out of pocket when it's being used though
THRILLSEEKER is offline  
Old 22nd Aug 2010, 00:01
  #3706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: over there
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My point of view : Outstanding training, amazing facilities and some real job prospect after, but if you have to borrow the amount, probably not the best option.
Have you been in the A320 sims at Nursling?! Amazing is not a word I'd use to describe them!
alpha.charlie is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2010, 08:28
  #3707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: on the street
Posts: 37
So a TRUE bit is... There have been cadets that have gone bankrupt from the CTC scheme. But now the loans have to be secured so the banks don't loose their money. ie Now the Guarantors will have to keep up the payments... mmm that sounds better? So we wont see anymore bankrupts just guarantors wishing they hadn't signed that @#$% Guarantor form.

I have to take issue with the word "anything."
Ok your right, I would like to change that to Parents will do "almost anything". Even if the children are teenage puss face brats. Most parents will be a Gurantor for their child when they want to get a house mortgage (even if it is to get them to leave home), so i don't see why a parent wouldn't grantee a child's education. But now they will only be allowed to if they can afford to pay it.

About CTC making money...
I was just talking about the CTC NZ company. Which I think is a separate company to UK CTC . The ab-initio part was set up to feed more cadets into the SIM where the money is being made. The NZ company was making a huge loss and management was going to close it unless they made a profit.

In summary, busineses 10 years ago, now, and in 10 years time will still need to make a profit in order to survive. Adaptability, change and innovation will be the key to that survival. Quality and the perception of quality will need to be ensured if the customers are to keep coming back.
Here is another scenario... Pour money into building up a quality product and get lots of customers. Then to make money cut quality and make lots more money by charging the same (or more). This will work as long as there is a lag between the manufacturing and end product. Because the QA looking at the end product wont notice until they get the finished product. So you have a window (two years training?) to make money. Then when the customers see the quality drop the company will just close the doors and retire with the money. You can also live off the quality reputation for a while.
This is how some companies work now days and which is why some companies don't last very long.

From the results I've seen recently there has been no decline in pass rates. You are making some fairly strong allegations against CTC's training standards.
In fact, you are trotting out a random bag-full of statements, some of which true - bankruptcy, parents selling things - and some downright libelous, as above. It just sounds like an uncontrolled expulsion of ranting and it makes you look silly.
You agree on my statements about bankruptcy and parents selling things, (I hope that doesn't make you look silly too) Now we will have to wait and see if my Quality statements are true as well.
systematically is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2010, 08:33
  #3708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: LHR
Posts: 188
Failed selection systematically? Not sure how else you could be so bitter about a company you seemingly know little about.

Ah it appears you are a cadet in the holdpool. May be best not to slag off the company that are trying their best to find you a jet job then.
HPbleed is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2010, 09:52
  #3709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Posts: 788
No, it doesn't make me look silly. If being right or wrong is more important to you than presenting an opinion in a non-emotionally-charged manner then you must be right about CTC's selection - how did they let you slip through?!

Last edited by The African Dude; 23rd Aug 2010 at 10:20.
The African Dude is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2010, 11:04
  #3710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: on the street
Posts: 37
African Dude... Yep I had the cash up front.
HP bleed... How could anyone fail selection?? Never got a PR2 (costs the company too much money). And if you do get a PR2 it will be remedied in the cheapest way.

Any productive comments from you guys about the topics of discussion?

Prove me wrong about the quality dropping and cost issues if you want.
systematically is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2010, 14:40
  #3711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Beyond an obvious rant, it is quite difficult to understand what point you are making. As end users (if you will) we are not seeing any noticeable drop in standards. The people coming through this system appear to be reasonably stable, mature, sensible individuals with a solid grounding and a keen ability to learn quickly. I have already said that, if that changes I will let you know.

You seem obsessed with people "loosing" their houses. By the way the word you want is "losing." A tile on the roof of said house may be loose, but the owner will only lose it after the wind has blown it away. The cost of this course is very much on par with that charged for similar integrated flight training courses by other primary establishments such as Oxford or FTE. At around 80,000 - 90,000, that is not all cheap, but that is the price. Obviously only those with the resouces to afford these prices will be able to afford these programmes. There are alternative methods of aquiring pilots licences, either by necessity or choice.

One of the visible advantages of these courses, is that the airline partners are keen on the end product. They feel that the ab-initio training and assesments that these candidates have received, is consistent with that found in an airline environment. Despite the very low experience levels, the candidates training has all been airline orientated, and as such the candidates tend to have very much the right attitude. This makes them quick learners, with a good background of CRM methodology and techniques. The airline partners also have a good understanding of the candidates training history and background, when they make their initial selections. Even in good times these cadet pilots are on at least a six month probationary period, so if any one didn't make the grade for whatever reason, that placement would be terminated.

Although you seem a little angry at the state of the global economy and how it affects a companies need to adapt, as well as consequences for reckless borrowers etc. that is not the fault of the training organisations. At the very pinnacle of this particular food chain, the airlines themselves are all having to adapt to survive. Terms and conditions of employment are in almost every case being culled and modified in attempts to ensure that survival.

Make no mistake, if the airlines see any reduction in the quality of the product, such that the product no longer represents value for money, then they will purchase elsewhere. They do this for virtually every service they are already contracted to, be that caterers, handling agencies, cleaners, hotel providers, transportation companies, etc. The providers are well aware of this. CTC are no doubt well aware of these realities, they as a company already live by these realities. They have also been around for quite a while now and have worked to achieve the reputation they have.

All companies and individuals must adapt to survive. These are difficult economic times and that adaption should reflect the realities of the current marketplace. You can make a delicious meal whether the basic ingredients came from Harrods, Tesco's, Asda's, Lidl's, or off the local market stall. Sometimes it takes a little more effort, but often the end result is the same.

If by any chance you witness high end equipment being cleared out of the offices and classrooms, and being loaded into packing boxes destined for the Cayman Islands, then let us know. Likewise if we see any change in the quality of this companies product we will let you know, I promise.

To all the men and women I glibly refer to as "product," please accept my apologies. It is done for the purpose of analogy and comparison, and to take some of the emotion out of the observation and discussion.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2010, 10:12
  #3712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dreaming of the sky
Posts: 14
I cant imagine there has been any drop in standards. It is clearly in CTCs interests that you pass - and the standard for issuing a commercial pilot license is well defined by the relevant authorities.

The biggest question still has to be about job prospects ?
Spending 100K for 12+ months in a hold pool then 'flexi-crew' is probably not such a great deal ? Especially if you need to renew instrument ratings in that time.

However if you do eventually gain a full time contract then CTC might be considered a reasonable longer term investment ?
Air_One is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2010, 12:05
  #3713 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
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Posts: 37
Bealzebub

The people coming through this system appear to be reasonably stable, mature, sensible individuals with a solid grounding and a keen ability to learn quickly. I have already said that, if that changes I will let you know.
If you are seeing the end product then you wont see the drop in standards for a year or more. I agree the "product" in the past has been all of those things you have said.

But to make myself clear there are two points that I would like to make.
1. Selection has changed and just about anyone with the cash can get in. (I have also herd that the instructors in NZ have NO selection at all anymore. They previously did the same/similar selection as cadets) This will obviously save a lot of money and reduce standards also.

2. The quality of the new course has been reduced. The new course started about Feb 2010. So you wont see the cadets until late 2011 (depending what stage you see them.)

Let us know how the standard holds out against all these odds.
systematically is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2010, 22:49
  #3714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 114
Sorry to post a bit off-topic, but does anyone know what proportion of cadets at CTC end up at easyjet or on flexicrew? They list quite a few airlines as 'partners' - just wondering if one were to go through CTC what are the potential non-easyjet prospects? Obviously at present it has been predominately easyjet, I'm just trying to get a feel of where cadets end up in a 'normal' year. I Don't fancy ever signing-up to a purely orange future! ...before people flame me, I'm in no rush to sign up to this, or any other scheme just yet!
kingofkabul is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 08:46
  #3715 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Easyjet is the only one really for us european... Some cadets have been placed with Thomas cook and Monarch few times in the past but it is very marginal..
Today, if you sign up for the scheme it's more likely to be for easyjet..
The list of partner is only to attract people and make them think they'll get the best out of CTC.. They recently told someone on a selection day that EMIRATES was about to become a new partner...
You won't be bonded for ever, you will only give 3 years of your life to the orange monster then get a better job with your 2000+ jet hours..
The flying bob is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2010, 10:50
  #3716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
Emirates?!

HAHAHA!

Are they that desperate to get people to sign up?!
sharpclassic is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2010, 07:13
  #3717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: on the street
Posts: 37
The airline list is a list of airlines that CTC has talked to in the last few years in desperation to get them to take on CTC's cadets. They are by no means 'Partner' airlines. If you rang most of these airlines they would be surprised to find them mentioned as 'Partners' to CTC. (they would probably ask who is CTC?)
Just more of the deception that goes on...
systematically is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2010, 22:19
  #3718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: scotland
Age: 34
Posts: 16
People now getting employed

Just wondered what peoples view are on any trend changes in the industry now.I myself have started seeing people i know getting called up for type ratings and some have now got start dates.Does anyone else have similar stories to tell? Just that i noticed this thread has been dead for a while so thought id try to inject some life back into it!
wirefly84 is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2010, 11:25
  #3719 (permalink)  
reivax
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Can anyone tell me about the size of the cadets pool right now?
Have they taken some guys from the ATP pool yet?
Thanks guys
 
Old 31st Oct 2010, 09:21
  #3720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 34
Posts: 16
EasyJet have confirmed that they will be taking a huge chunk of the holding pool between now and next spring. That will take what is in the holding pool right now. So then that leaves the people that will join the holding pool between now and spring which I am guessing to be about 100 people. This is just an estimate.

Considering that the holding pool was in the 200's only a couple of months ago, this is a big move in the right direction

Figures right now can be mis leading due to the large numbers of people now being type rated.

As I said this is just an estimate, so take it with a pinch of salt!
cloud9dk is offline  

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