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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 15th Dec 2009, 05:56
  #3441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 18
As an ATP pilot in the hold pool since February 2008 (AQC) I can say that I will refuse these conditions. I wanted to be a pilot for a long time but there are limits to everything. They are perverting our dream way too much.

At some point you must ask yourself "Is it REALLY worth it (under those circumstances) ?". Where is the joy in the job where you can't survive properly, where you can't sleep because of stress of repayments and repossession ?

Now what can we do TOGETHER to try and brake the trend ?

Best regards,

FSP

PS: I did my training modular and managed to do it without owing money to anyone but I feel deeply for the guys out there and if we stick together we may be able to do something, or am I a dreamer ?

Last edited by FrenchScotPilot; 15th Dec 2009 at 06:51.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 06:46
  #3442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 31
No mate you are not alone. I guess everyone is purely appaled by this disgraceful treatment. But here in NZ, appart from being shocked people simply think of themselves saying "things will change for us".
I am up for any thing that could stop this horror but if some cadets accept this contract what else can we do????
I am almost done with NZ and due to head back to the UK soon and I know I won't accept anything like that even if I need to go back to my parents and work to give back everything to the bank.
But if we don't stand up TOGETHER then I'm afraid Ryanair will call CTC tomorrow to get as many cadets as possible through this horrible scheme.

I definitly feel betrayed by CTC and can't even concentrate on my next flight.
But you should see people here, only worried about themselves, some even adding the 28K to their total debt.
I already contacted some EZY pilots through PPRuNe few weeks ago to know if we could be of any use down here. It seems like we are just customers, slave should I say who can't say a word against this crap managment.
They are liers, guys stay away from CTC
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 07:22
  #3443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Right. Here is my view on CTC, from a slightly different point of view.

I paid for my own training at OATS in 1999-2000. I was fortunate. I had a good job before (in my early 20's - in City trading). I went to OATS and left with very little debt fortunately.

I applied to CTC and gained a place on a 757 course with jmc Airlines. At the time, CTC cadets were meant to pay 6k towards the cost. However, for a short period in 2000 some of us were fortunate to not need to pay. Reference WWW and timing in this industry.

The course was held at Dibden. We then went to Royal Brunei Airlines for type rating simulators. We were given a car, per diems and a 4 star hotel SUITE for our stay!!! Reference WWW again.

Then, 6 months on 1000 plus expenses at jmc. This was not a problem. I had no debt remember. I rented a room from a jmc SFO, who remains one of my best friends to this very day. No need to sleep on the floor (even though we did sit on 2 deckchairs in his living room for 3 months as we renovated the house...)

From here, I got offered permanent jmc employment and even avoided the chop after 9/11 (I was the very last man on the jmc seniority list - I had signed and returned my permanent contract - others had not and were laid off immediately). Reference WWW again.

But, CTC gave me a HUGE headstart 9 years ago and allowed all the following to happen.

Then, a 2 year sabbatical at DHL.

Then back to Thomas Cook, where I was based at my local airport and rated on the 320 then the 330.

I left 3 years later and joined Virgin Atlantic on the A340.

The common denominator is for me, fortunately, that all my type ratings were paid for by airlines.

I saw the downturn coming and jumped from Virgin before the sh1t really hit the fan. Reference WWW again.

So, recently, I took another sabbatical and joined Wizzair as a DEC - just before they changed their DEC criteria as the unemployment crisis really bit. Reference WWW again.

Not the best airline, perhaps, but with the direction this industry is taking I feel that being a Captain is EVERYTHING.

What this highlights is just how far the CTC deal has deteriorated. I never felt that the deal I got at CTC undermined anyone. Sure, I got poor pay for 6 months, but you ALWAYS got a permanent contract at the end of it.

From there to this within 9 years. Like WWW, I find it utterly depressing.

But, be certain: If this continues, the downward trend will ultimately prove short lived. As bad as things are, eventually people WILL stop training in large numbers. There WILL then be a relative shortage of "willing volunteers" into modern slavery, and ultimately, if airlines are to maintain similar size and shape as to now, terms and conditions in the shape of pay will have to rise.

The industry has changed. Seniority is dying. Jobs are set to become more portable. This is a sad phase for our profession, but I do believe things will, out of necessity, improve.

Finally, before anyone says anything regarding Wizzair. Yes, they are not perfect. We have JFO's who have large debts and constant worries. This does not make me happy. It is (indirectly) another layer of checks that you have to perform to ensure Flight Safety. My first question to all my crew members, every day is: Are you fit, rested, ready and happy to fly?

The answer is always "Yes". I wonder if it's always true..........

Last edited by stansdead; 15th Dec 2009 at 07:30. Reason: addition
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 08:19
  #3444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: big green wheely bin
Posts: 617
I went through CTC back in 2000, and my experience of them was much the same as Stans.

In fact I have to agree with what Stan has stated, its my belief that it will come back around. No one can get a loan to train any more and the amount of pilots needed with any sort of expansion in the industry will far out strip supply.

There are peaks and troughs in this industry, the current trough is very deep, but the preceding peak was too high. It will level out to something sustainable, but it will take a few years.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:43
  #3445 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264
In fact I have to agree with what Stan has stated, its my belief that it will come back around. No one can get a loan to train any more and the amount of pilots needed with any sort of expansion in the industry will far out strip supply
Why? There has never been any real shortage in the industry. The source has always been a combination of military pilots and civilian career improvers. These cadet schemes sprang up as a commercial initiative that exploited a niche in the airline training market that used to exist in small measure with some of the limited career sponsorship schemes such as BOAC/BEA Hamble.

There never was any compelling need for the majority of airlines to take 200 hour cadets and recruit them en-masse into the right hand seat of commercial jet transports. The success of these commercial "airline pilot training schools" was brought about by a combination of easily available credit (they got paid up front). A good and easy sales pitch to the candidates, and the lynch pin of the whole operation, a supply of cheap qualified bodies to occupy the right hand seat. The whole success of the operation rested on the "cheap" bit. That is where the supply shortage existed.

The success of these schemes rested on the airlines ability to cut their own costs by simply fulfilling the end role of absorbing the product. Undoubtably for the early output the schemes were very successful. However the same nagging question kept being asked, why would the airlines persist with these schemes unless they continued to fulfill the primary criteria of keeping their costs down? Indeed having discovered the savings to be made, they soon realised what a cash cow that right hand seat could be: 30,000 for a type rating; no employment contract commitments; charge for training; charge for uniforms; charge for every other sundry item. You would never have been able to do that with ex-military pilots or career advancers from other companies.They would simply have turned such terms down and moved on to the next company. However a market of people prepared to pay large sums of money to satisy their ambitions, (a theme park experience,) created a whole new supply source that worked enormously to the airlines advantage. At least it did until the economy started to nosedive and the reality hit home.

At some point the market will pick up. The problem is that when it does (and all other things being equal,) it won't mean that the right hand seat suddenly becomes part of the upper rungs of an aviation career structure, as it used to be. It will once again become a part of the sales and marketing opportunities for the companies concerned. Like all good pyramid schemes it only works well for those who get in as the market starts up. Those who come later simply finance the game.

If changes come about (such as those proposed in the USA,) to restrict these type of jobs to full ATPL holders with a minimum of 1500 hours, then many of these "airline puppy farms" will have to change their business model. Airlines will not have any trouble finding recruits for the right hand seat, but the market will dictate that terms & conditions reflect the reality of having to pay for that experience once again.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 11:03
  #3446 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Gatport
Posts: 11
Back to something flying Bob said:

But you should see people here, only worried about themselves, some even adding the 28K to their total debt.
And herein lies the major problem. Back over a year ago when the pool was first filling itself, I was one of the lucky swimmers. As one of the first in, I personally had been waiting for 7 months, a couple of others had been there longer.

A job offer came along. The T & C's caused a good deal of umming and arring as it was a new form of contract. Don't get me wrong, nothing like this EasyJet deal, but still. I initially phoned back after a good few days of thinking (and not a lot else) to say 'no' and my reasons being is that I wanted an improvement in the contract - guaranteed minimum hours, base etc.

I was then given the names of 5 other colleagues literally hanging off the end of a phone-line to take my spot.

It's all very well trying to stand up to this and say "I don't accept these terms" but it's not going to work while there are hundreds of others willing to trample you down to cross the picket line.

There were several guys who turned down this EJ offer, but sure enough, the course still ran full yesterday and they won't be missed! It's a sorry state of affairs... but what can you do!

CTC know their audience and how desperate some of them are.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 11:28
  #3447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
I received this PM from a current cadet who wishes even for his Prune name to remain anonymous...

"Dude... i fear to say what I really feel on any forum incase my anonymity fails and CTC tell me to f off...
Unfortunately they hold all the cards, if we don't like the way they do things they can tell us to find a job on our own. We have no power, simple as that."


Draw your own conclusions...
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 12:22
  #3448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,740
CTC like many other FTOs is fighting for it's existence and it is this fact that is pulling terms and conditions down for all of us. The partner airlines or lets just say Easyjet make demands (we want product X for price Y). The FTOs are fearful that the airlines may go elsewhere for business, and so they meet those demands. Trouble is, the likes of CTC never take the hit themselves, they always pass it on to us, the product. Because the product is normally a starry eyed wannabe with not much else to think of in life (partner, children, mortgage, car loans etc), CTC are able to achieve this relatively simply. Wheras somebody slightly older would just tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. They were once the darling of the recruitment/training industry but have quite clearly turned into a cancer which now threatens us all.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 15:45
  #3449 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 640
If sharpclassic's post is correct, I'd get on the first flight back from NZ. Yes you'll have lost some money, but it won't be 100k that you'll stand to loose if you stay.

How anyone can even think of doing this course at the moment is beyond belief.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 16:00
  #3450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 139
Fans , thats the best bit of advice given for a while.

People have taken an investment risk (gambled really as their unhedged)

The Investment hasn't turned out as planned so take a loss and move on before things become financially untenable.

Last edited by cjd_a320; 15th Dec 2009 at 16:10.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 16:38
  #3451 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
FANS,
If you're referring to my post with the PM from a cadet, he/she isn't the only person to feel that way. Pretty much every ex CTC person I speak to felt like that all the way through their training. They just kept theirs heads down and got on with things knowing that there was a very good chance of a job at the end of it.

Sadly, that's not the case now...
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 09:09
  #3452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
As I said several times before, wait until end of Feb before signing up for this scheme - now you see why. Still do. Then you can make a decision on whether it's the 'scheme' for you with all the information. You would have to be very thick to sign up right now.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 10:21
  #3453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Age: 35
Posts: 1
Question

Hi All,

Does somebody know How many suitable applicants are already in the ATP database pool?
Thanks
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Old 18th Dec 2009, 14:41
  #3454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: DXB & FL 410
Posts: 923
This is so sad to read.

Back in early 2006 I went through the CTC ATP scheme.

I was put up in a decent hotel in Southampton for 6 weeks during type rating. (Loads of award/loyalty points collected - I've been living off them ever since)

During line training I was put up in a 5* hotel for 4 months and received 1500 per month for the first 6 months and then a 2000 well done payment for signing a full airline contract after the 6 month with EZY.

No bond, no repayments and no reduced salary. Just a full T&C's EZY contract.

CTC gave me a great leg up, having been a FI prior to the course.

What on earth has happened in 3 and a half years!
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Old 18th Dec 2009, 16:52
  #3455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 41
Posts: 607
What on earth has happened in 3 and a half years!
Haven't you heard, there is a real shortage on low-time grads at the moment

PS - did I mention that you need a fat wallet and a lobotomy?
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Old 18th Dec 2009, 17:13
  #3456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 609
you would to be completely mental to even consider ctc or ryr now
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Old 19th Dec 2009, 11:01
  #3457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
What a surprise, still no comment on the private CTC forum from management...
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Old 19th Dec 2009, 16:09
  #3458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Age: 29
Posts: 80
people I have been reading these post, and thinking this is a waste of time! quick question thought does BALPA know what EZY and CTC are doing, also does the EU central goverment know what they are doing- competition commision for example. Or working standards departments- i think its time for this whole industry to change for the better but goverments plus media need to be involved!
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 14:31
  #3459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: southern england
Posts: 102
Right, if you are conidering the current CTC Easyjet offer please please please read this and consider your position carefully.

The latest contract in basic terms after paying for a type rating in the region of 28000 will offer pay based on BLOCK HOURS only. You will not be paid for duty hours, sick pay, holiday, loss of licence, positioning and I believe night stops. Many of you may be aware of what the implication of this is but incase you are not please read on.

If (as many of the cadets who have been on per day contracts have found out over the last summer period) you fly in the region of 350-400 hours over 6 or 7 months.The new per block hour contract works out AFTER TAX at around 1100 per month. You will be very unlikely to do the 900 hours promised . So 1100 per month to service an enormous loan , rent, petrol, car food?? If you're still interested consider the following.

Day one position to Berlin (nopay)
day two berlin venice berlin (block hours about 3.5)
day three position home.

three days work for the some total of 70 after the 28000k loan repayment is deducted.

Please fogive me Some of these figures are rough but are close to the mark. I am a former CTC cadet, if this had been offered to me I would have found it very hard to say no if I had had no flying, and no way of paying my loan. But if you believe nothing that I have written above believe this.

This contract will put you further in debt, you will not be able to clear any debts unless you create new ones on credit cards and overdrafts whilst paying the banks off. That debt if you have not learnt already brings a lot of stress and anxiety.

On the old traditional EZY/CTC contract of six months 1000 per month and then cadet fo pay of 28000 rising to 36000 after unfreezing my licence I still owe over half my original loan and have nearly paid off all the credit cards and overdrafts. this is three years after joining EZY This is significantly more than any of you will get on this.

Get together with your fellow cadets, agree to all say no. They (CTC and EZY) need you. But sign the contract and you are screwed.

Sorry for the gloomy warning at Christmas but you cannot sign such a slave contract.
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Old 24th Dec 2009, 11:16
  #3460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Norwich
Posts: 202
They (CTC and EZY) need you
I think CTC need the cadets, but EZY certainly don't. They can get pilots from any number of sources, like OAT. Im sure you know that the T's and C's for Oxford students, are even worse.

CTC believe their hands are tied on this one,with Easyjet making very tough demands, as they are keen to reduce their training costs. Given the current state of the industry, what are they to do? Easyjet hold all the cards now, everyone is fighting for survival, including CTC. It's a supply and demand world, CTC need to adjust to their customers needs, or it is gone.

If anyone is to blame in all this, I believe it's the Easyjet management. Of course they want to reduce costs and maximise any benefit they possibly can out of this recession, but surely they have taken this a step too far.

What comes of this, is a pool of pilots living below the bread line. As has been suggested before, working under this contract is liable to have the cadets digging deeper and deeper into debt, at least until the type rating is paid off.

Above all, it shows a complete lack of respect for the profession and an absence of any morals.
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