The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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You'd all make the same decision
If you were EZY management, you'd make exactly the same decision to go down the flexi route; it could give you a decent bonus next year!
It's working fine for Ryanair, they still get plenty of applicants, and they even make a nice profit with each new pilot recruited. Genius. EZY have no choice but to follow the clear market leader. They've simply got to go down flexi-crew at the very least (and try getting a mortgage/loan on the back of that).
And yet. And yet. Something does not quite feel right. Could this be the start of one of those chain of events we learn about
It's working fine for Ryanair, they still get plenty of applicants, and they even make a nice profit with each new pilot recruited. Genius. EZY have no choice but to follow the clear market leader. They've simply got to go down flexi-crew at the very least (and try getting a mortgage/loan on the back of that).
And yet. And yet. Something does not quite feel right. Could this be the start of one of those chain of events we learn about
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FANS, I agree.
As they say, no graph is one directional; however it seems in this case - in terms of employment rights, pay, futures, T&C's etc... - the lowco route into the career for a newbie, the graph seems one directional at present.
However, in the true sense of my original statement, if the flexi/contract deal is the way into the industry for the next few years, the model will surely have to change to force the graph upwards.
I pose a question (and don't get me wrong, I would never defend such practices by Brookfield which are so detrimental for employees) where does everyone see the business model of the industry in 5 years?
I can't see a model of the industry working long term; whereby the whole industry is in two levels.
Level 1. A newbie gains an IR, fATPL, and then works as a self ltd company. With no full time job on the horizon.
Level 2. Pilots who unfroze their license way before the flexi world, work for airlines and are promoted through the system. To retire at 65.
At some point, the number of pilots who only acheive flexi flying hours per year will dominate the pilot pool - from age 20-65. Then airlines will only have low houred guys of all ages lacking any real experience, in the pot to pick for captains.
The model isn't sustainable. I don't doubt, the flexi model will be with us for a while yet. But terms and numbers, and seniority methods will HAVE to change.
(Long term . I know!)
As they say, no graph is one directional; however it seems in this case - in terms of employment rights, pay, futures, T&C's etc... - the lowco route into the career for a newbie, the graph seems one directional at present.
However, in the true sense of my original statement, if the flexi/contract deal is the way into the industry for the next few years, the model will surely have to change to force the graph upwards.
I pose a question (and don't get me wrong, I would never defend such practices by Brookfield which are so detrimental for employees) where does everyone see the business model of the industry in 5 years?
I can't see a model of the industry working long term; whereby the whole industry is in two levels.
Level 1. A newbie gains an IR, fATPL, and then works as a self ltd company. With no full time job on the horizon.
Level 2. Pilots who unfroze their license way before the flexi world, work for airlines and are promoted through the system. To retire at 65.
At some point, the number of pilots who only acheive flexi flying hours per year will dominate the pilot pool - from age 20-65. Then airlines will only have low houred guys of all ages lacking any real experience, in the pot to pick for captains.
The model isn't sustainable. I don't doubt, the flexi model will be with us for a while yet. But terms and numbers, and seniority methods will HAVE to change.
(Long term . I know!)
Last edited by One9iner; 20th Nov 2009 at 00:10.
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Cadets at the end of this scheme are considering going bankrupt.
Why would people STILL want to part with their money? The Flexi crew scheme is bad for our industry as it prevents current F/O's gaining promotion and also prevents out of work EXPERIENCED pilots gaining jobs. It's a disgrace.
Why would people STILL want to part with their money? The Flexi crew scheme is bad for our industry as it prevents current F/O's gaining promotion and also prevents out of work EXPERIENCED pilots gaining jobs. It's a disgrace.
If your job was to save your company money then I am sure you would go down the same or a similar route, I don't like whats going on but end of the day a business man cares only about money...and I don't blame him!!
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I think what LondonMet's point is, why are people CONTINUING to spend such STUPID amounts of money when all they have to look forward to at the end of training is at best years of temporary work struggling to pay back their loan and at worst declaring bankruptcy.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
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Absolutely that is my point. There will not be any perm jobs in the UK for a good few years. In the time period between the start of the "recruitment ban" and that point in the future more and more pilots will have been churned out of various schools so you'll be competing against them.
Not fun.
L Met
Not fun.
L Met
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Hi, I'm attending presentation by CTC soon and wondered if anyone had any good questions for me to put to them?
Personally I'm interested on what they have to say about why I should join the wings program at the moment with the current climate, also be interesting to see their response to the Easyjet-Brookfield rumours that have been around.
Delta-Bravo
Personally I'm interested on what they have to say about why I should join the wings program at the moment with the current climate, also be interesting to see their response to the Easyjet-Brookfield rumours that have been around.
Delta-Bravo
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Just read all of the comments above and put it to CTC. There are questions that us in the hold pool don't even get answered. Im fed up with it.
Try asking how many people currently in the pool and how long do they think it will be before they are all given PERMANENT, SECURE jobs with CAREER development rather than this crazy flexi crew system where nobody can plan there lives.
Try asking how many people currently in the pool and how long do they think it will be before they are all given PERMANENT, SECURE jobs with CAREER development rather than this crazy flexi crew system where nobody can plan there lives.
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Minflavour, to that the answer will or, more to the point, SHOULD be....
"Well, so long as people like you keep paying us £70,000 to get on the course, never".
Ask them why there is no trust in management from cadets on the course and in the hold pool.
Let us know what they say ;-)
"Well, so long as people like you keep paying us £70,000 to get on the course, never".
Ask them why there is no trust in management from cadets on the course and in the hold pool.
Let us know what they say ;-)
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Asianberry... payments are made in two section. The first payment is due month 1 - and then there is a 5/6 month delay until the next payment is due.
As follows
Installment:
1- £10,700 month 1
2 - £5,300 month 7
3. - £5,300 month 8
4 - £5,300 month 9
etc....
As follows
Installment:
1- £10,700 month 1
2 - £5,300 month 7
3. - £5,300 month 8
4 - £5,300 month 9
etc....
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got my 2nd (possibly 3rd) email asking me if i want to go down and do my reapplication for the wings cadet program.........and pay for the privelage!
how short on applicants are they? how full are the last few courses that have gone ahead?
how short on applicants are they? how full are the last few courses that have gone ahead?
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I'd be asking whats CTC Aviation Group, gulf countries (GGC's) financial funding exposure before parting with any cash.
( HSBC have around $16 billon of loans/advances for some context)
( HSBC have around $16 billon of loans/advances for some context)
Last edited by cjd_a320; 26th Nov 2009 at 16:18.
You know I really should make the effort to go and meet this Lee Woodward fellow.
In my minds eye it would be a re-run of when Luke confronts Darth and I end up cutting off his arm.. Although its not really his fault that he became consumed by the Dark Side of flying training sales targets. Poor chap.
WWW
In my minds eye it would be a re-run of when Luke confronts Darth and I end up cutting off his arm.. Although its not really his fault that he became consumed by the Dark Side of flying training sales targets. Poor chap.
WWW
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iFlyPilot,
Without meaning to sound rude but why didnt you ask about the hold pool then as thats one of the most critical things to you starting training, isn't it?
I'm in the pool at the moment, currently doggy paddling in circles with HSBC hunting me down! Things are seriously bad right now, to state the obvious, so I would really consider undertaking any pilot training at the moment, at least until there is a significant improvement in the industry, both jobs and Ts & Cs.
I expect you were sold the "now is the best time to start training" which I could go along with as what Im hearing is that 2011 is the year that recruitment will really pick up. However, noone knows this and more importantly, with CTC (to their credit) they operate a strict hold pool so you will still have to wait your turn in the pool. Things to consider my friend.......
Without meaning to sound rude but why didnt you ask about the hold pool then as thats one of the most critical things to you starting training, isn't it?
I'm in the pool at the moment, currently doggy paddling in circles with HSBC hunting me down! Things are seriously bad right now, to state the obvious, so I would really consider undertaking any pilot training at the moment, at least until there is a significant improvement in the industry, both jobs and Ts & Cs.
I expect you were sold the "now is the best time to start training" which I could go along with as what Im hearing is that 2011 is the year that recruitment will really pick up. However, noone knows this and more importantly, with CTC (to their credit) they operate a strict hold pool so you will still have to wait your turn in the pool. Things to consider my friend.......