Introduction of Anti-Ageism Regulations 1st October?
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CTC and Age Discrimination
Legislation prohibiting age discrimination in the workplace
While watching Working Lunch today and an item on the show was about age discrimination and the new law coming into place of the 1st October and has got me thinking about CTC, back in 2000 I came out of college with an Frozen ATPL and looked at how I was going to get an airline job, one of the only ways into a large airline then was through the CTC scheme, but as I was just over the age limit I couldn’t apply, this did hack me off and felt was unfair so I just went out and got a job on my own, and now six years down the line I am sitting in a 80 ton jet so who needed CTC.
My point is with the change in the law how come CTC are still discriminating against age, I have put the following quotes from there web site.
Quote:
On the date of application you must be aged between 19 years and 34 years (within 3 months of your 34th birthday)
The programme is a partnership between CTC, participating airlines, cadets and young pilots seeking their first airline experience. There are two routes into the programme – Wings Cadet entry, for young people who have little or no flying experience, and Wings ATP entry, for pilots holding a JAA CPL.
While watching Working Lunch today and an item on the show was about age discrimination and the new law coming into place of the 1st October and has got me thinking about CTC, back in 2000 I came out of college with an Frozen ATPL and looked at how I was going to get an airline job, one of the only ways into a large airline then was through the CTC scheme, but as I was just over the age limit I couldn’t apply, this did hack me off and felt was unfair so I just went out and got a job on my own, and now six years down the line I am sitting in a 80 ton jet so who needed CTC.
My point is with the change in the law how come CTC are still discriminating against age, I have put the following quotes from there web site.
Quote:
On the date of application you must be aged between 19 years and 34 years (within 3 months of your 34th birthday)
The programme is a partnership between CTC, participating airlines, cadets and young pilots seeking their first airline experience. There are two routes into the programme – Wings Cadet entry, for young people who have little or no flying experience, and Wings ATP entry, for pilots holding a JAA CPL.
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If you look at other sponsorships in the aviation industry you will see that they too have their age limits. For eample NATS - you cannot apply after 28th birthday... Eurocontrol - you can not apply after your 26 birthday. I suppose that CTC must have criteria they have to meet from the corporate partners. CTC must have to draw the line somewhere. Generally where they get the best results. I dont know how peoples performance in different age brackets corrolate - maybe that isnt even an issue. I suppose it may not seem fair, especially if you have just crossed that upper age boundary. I dont think it is discrimination, i think its a personal preferance from the company. They couldnt train a 55 year old from scratch because his/her service life would be too short so there would be no benifit to anyone in doing so. I have always heard that you learn faster as a younger person, thats not to say anyone older cannot learn fast either.. but in an ab-initio scenario it must keep the costs down for CTC if the cadets manage to get through everything easily.
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I believe that since CTC is a selection for a training scheme and not a job per se, there is no applicability of age discrimination law to their method of selection. Perhaps a lawyer would confirm?
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Lucifer your probably right but with them placing people with airlines I think it could be a grey area,as anyone at the time with low hours who wanted to work for Easyjet had to go through the CTC scheme so it was kind of a job interview.
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there is a little difference though...
NATS train you for free and also give you a salary while training. And on completion of training, guarantee an immediate job.
CTC don't, and will get the money back from you plus interest.
In a certain way, you are a customer to CTC, although they recruit on behalf of the likes of easyjet
NATS train you for free and also give you a salary while training. And on completion of training, guarantee an immediate job.
CTC don't, and will get the money back from you plus interest.
In a certain way, you are a customer to CTC, although they recruit on behalf of the likes of easyjet
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I was just wondering whats the latest,
hi im only 23 and are just in the process of leaving my current aviation employer, with only 350 hours and being young i want to see the world and maybe do a degree, which means il be most likely 28-29 when i look at funding my licence. will that be too old for most schemes?
hi im only 23 and are just in the process of leaving my current aviation employer, with only 350 hours and being young i want to see the world and maybe do a degree, which means il be most likely 28-29 when i look at funding my licence. will that be too old for most schemes?
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Age discrimination laws - CV's & online applications
With the new age discrimination laws now in effect, I just wondred if fellow prunersa are omitting age and date of birth from your CV's?
Also, has anyone noticed if the like's of Flybe, BACON, CTC etc. have revised their application forms as yet?
Cheers,
WTSS
Also, has anyone noticed if the like's of Flybe, BACON, CTC etc. have revised their application forms as yet?
Cheers,
WTSS
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I would imagine young people will leave their DOB on, and old people will not, so still easy to check age. This law is not going to be a magic wand for us older folks.
Also, even if they remove the DOB request from online apps, they still ask lots of other dates, such as school exams, so won't take a brain surgeon to work out how old we are.
Personally I am going to leave my DOB on (not that old, more intermediate!). I don't want to turn up for an interview and get a look that says 'oh we were expecting someone younger'.
Anyway, 1500+ hrs, 300+ multi, mid-30's, still looking.
Also, even if they remove the DOB request from online apps, they still ask lots of other dates, such as school exams, so won't take a brain surgeon to work out how old we are.
Personally I am going to leave my DOB on (not that old, more intermediate!). I don't want to turn up for an interview and get a look that says 'oh we were expecting someone younger'.
Anyway, 1500+ hrs, 300+ multi, mid-30's, still looking.
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Age Discrimination
BA Connect has, in the not too distant past, started 2 F/O's. One was 52, the other 46. The website for application is not open at the moment but will comply with all current legislation when it does. The company has a reputation for fair employment and recruitment and has never discriminated for any reason.
Regards
Thumper
Regards
Thumper
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Ageism in Sponsoeship and Training
I would be grateful if anyone out there who is clued in on the new anti ageism legislation can help me out with a query.
I understand that the new legislation outlaws ageism in employment and vocational training but I have noticed that certain training organisations still apply age limits to their training courses (CTC AQC). Also some airlines who offer training sponsorship and provisional employment schemes still apply age limits to those schemes.
I did recently challenge an airline over sponsorship age limits and was told that because they were offering sponsorship for training and not direct employment they were within their rights to apply age limits.
My query is does the word or the spirit of the legislation allow training schools and sponsors to apply age limits or are they operating outside the law?
My own opinion is that the new legislation will have little effect on ageism other than driving it under ground ie oldies will be interviewed and tested but will be informed that they have been rejected because they did not interview well or their sim check was no good.
I understand that the new legislation outlaws ageism in employment and vocational training but I have noticed that certain training organisations still apply age limits to their training courses (CTC AQC). Also some airlines who offer training sponsorship and provisional employment schemes still apply age limits to those schemes.
I did recently challenge an airline over sponsorship age limits and was told that because they were offering sponsorship for training and not direct employment they were within their rights to apply age limits.
My query is does the word or the spirit of the legislation allow training schools and sponsors to apply age limits or are they operating outside the law?
My own opinion is that the new legislation will have little effect on ageism other than driving it under ground ie oldies will be interviewed and tested but will be informed that they have been rejected because they did not interview well or their sim check was no good.
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My understanding is that this application of the new law is indeed correct, and that these are an offer for training and not job.
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The CTC schemes are selection and training specifically for employment to the employer's requirements. EasyJet specifies that the CTC schemes are the only way to get into Easy if you don't qualify for DEP. Therefore, I think it is a fair point, the age limit (especially for the ATP scheme) does seem to fly in the face of the new law.
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So does this means schemes like Air Atlantique, Highland Airways, CCAT FlyBe etc will have to remove the upper age limit restrictions?
I have a sad feeling that airlines will always be able to get around these kinds of laws and continue to discriminate.
I have a sad feeling that airlines will always be able to get around these kinds of laws and continue to discriminate.
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BA Connect
Thumperdown,
Just a little bit outside the topic. You mentioned that there were two people joining recently at age 52 and 46. Do they have many hours on their licence already? Since it looks like age is not an issue for EXPERIENCED pilot but low hours wannabes.
Just a little bit outside the topic. You mentioned that there were two people joining recently at age 52 and 46. Do they have many hours on their licence already? Since it looks like age is not an issue for EXPERIENCED pilot but low hours wannabes.
Last edited by UlsterPPL; 16th Oct 2006 at 09:33.
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The intention of the new legislation is to remove all age discrimination in vocational training and employment, leaving only aptitude and character as the grounds on which to accept or decline an applicant (with the only exceptions being, as far as I am aware, the military and the police). Any company that continues to operate a policy of excluding applicants by age is leaving themselves open to litigation under the new legislation. I have no doubt that a test case or two will be required before they all drop into line, but into line they will have to come, no matter how much they don't like it.
Scroggs
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Hi,
To the best of my knowledge the new age discrimination laws do apply to vocational training courses as mentioned before. I do believe that in the case of CTC (which provides two training programmes) and other training courses, who apply a maximum age limit policy for applicants, will have no option but to change their policy on upper age limits as currently (you could say) they are illegal and open to prosecution - i guess we are just waiting for a precedent case. In my opinion, application forms will have to omit D.O.B and school/college/work dates (using school/college/work periods of attendance instead....e.g. 3 years at college), so as not to discriminate on the grounds of age - mind you, why do some application forms still ask for "race", and why does it seem that everytime i get invited to pilot sponsorship selection days that fellow applicants are nearly always young, white, middle-class males...ermmm?
To be fair, i think the new age laws are a good thing (maybe not so if your early 20's as competition could be even more fierce
:i'm late 20's btw
), and i really believe that if an applicant for a pilot training programme, say in their late 30's, passes pilot aptitude tests (which i thought measured an applicants suitability for pilot training irrespective of his/her age), interviews, and generally outperforms younger applicants then he/she should unquestionably be selected. You could argue that an older person in pilot training has less working years ahead of them once employed by an airline, but how many people today stay with the same company (or airline) during their working lives?
As regards to current RAF age limits of 23 for pilot (even less when you consider you usually have apply 6 months before your 23rd birthday), well, i'm kinda on the fence. Yes, pilot training in the RAF seems to be longer, than say for an airline pilot, as they seem to put a good deal of emphasis on making potentially good officers into pilots, rather than good pilots into officers. Futhermore, it's one thing to be able to fly a complex military fast jet at treetop height: it's another thing being able to use the aircraft as a weapon. There is a strong case for the RAF that 'cause of the complexity and length of its officer/pilot training that a younger person would be more suitable than someone older, although it's worth mentioning that the USAF, RAAF (and many other airforces) have much higher age limits for recruiting their aircrew and (arguably) have as good training, equipment and pilots, if not better than the RAF. It might also be worth saying (and maybe it's totally obvious), that nearly everyone that strolls into a RAF AFCO wants to be a pilot (don't blame them to be honest) with much of the other RAF officer careers going untouched in comparison. My final thought of the day (hurray) although a little wild: will the RAF have an age limit on transferring its frontline fast jet pilots to train on the new typhoon fighter which is considerably more sophisticated than current RAF fighters?
Sorry for dragging on for so long.....
To the best of my knowledge the new age discrimination laws do apply to vocational training courses as mentioned before. I do believe that in the case of CTC (which provides two training programmes) and other training courses, who apply a maximum age limit policy for applicants, will have no option but to change their policy on upper age limits as currently (you could say) they are illegal and open to prosecution - i guess we are just waiting for a precedent case. In my opinion, application forms will have to omit D.O.B and school/college/work dates (using school/college/work periods of attendance instead....e.g. 3 years at college), so as not to discriminate on the grounds of age - mind you, why do some application forms still ask for "race", and why does it seem that everytime i get invited to pilot sponsorship selection days that fellow applicants are nearly always young, white, middle-class males...ermmm?
To be fair, i think the new age laws are a good thing (maybe not so if your early 20's as competition could be even more fierce
:i'm late 20's btw), and i really believe that if an applicant for a pilot training programme, say in their late 30's, passes pilot aptitude tests (which i thought measured an applicants suitability for pilot training irrespective of his/her age), interviews, and generally outperforms younger applicants then he/she should unquestionably be selected. You could argue that an older person in pilot training has less working years ahead of them once employed by an airline, but how many people today stay with the same company (or airline) during their working lives?As regards to current RAF age limits of 23 for pilot (even less when you consider you usually have apply 6 months before your 23rd birthday), well, i'm kinda on the fence. Yes, pilot training in the RAF seems to be longer, than say for an airline pilot, as they seem to put a good deal of emphasis on making potentially good officers into pilots, rather than good pilots into officers. Futhermore, it's one thing to be able to fly a complex military fast jet at treetop height: it's another thing being able to use the aircraft as a weapon. There is a strong case for the RAF that 'cause of the complexity and length of its officer/pilot training that a younger person would be more suitable than someone older, although it's worth mentioning that the USAF, RAAF (and many other airforces) have much higher age limits for recruiting their aircrew and (arguably) have as good training, equipment and pilots, if not better than the RAF. It might also be worth saying (and maybe it's totally obvious), that nearly everyone that strolls into a RAF AFCO wants to be a pilot (don't blame them to be honest) with much of the other RAF officer careers going untouched in comparison. My final thought of the day (hurray) although a little wild: will the RAF have an age limit on transferring its frontline fast jet pilots to train on the new typhoon fighter which is considerably more sophisticated than current RAF fighters?
Sorry for dragging on for so long.....
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The politics of age 'discrimination' in the Services is not appropriate to this forum, which exists to discuss civilian commercial flying. Suffice to say that war is not an old man's game, and never will be. As such, military recruitment will always be aimed at young people.
Scroggs
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Originally Posted by magicmick
You 'younguns' need to start worrying because the oldies are coming up behind you and you may be getting some competition, the glorious smell of stale urine and preparation h[?] may soon be creeping into certain training organisations. Be afraid.........be very afraid.
It's not just that; also these same people think they're far more likely to get into jobs/training schemes because they have more "life experience" than the young'uns coming out of school and university to talk about in their interviews. I hate that phrase "life experience" - it's meaningless. So what if you know more people than you did when you were 20, you've held down a steady job in an accountant's office for 15 years or you've travelled and seen half of the world? Great, but it doesn't necessarily make you airline pilot material!
I'm all for fair and unbiased selection and would wish anyone who is able to take advantage of this new legislation and apply, where they would previously not have been able to, the best of luck. Go for it. My paragraphs above are based on the fact that there are a few contributors, not just on this thread, who IMHO need to be a bit realistic - it's very hard for young'uns to get into the industry, and it may well be equally hard for you oldies as well!
