Introduction of Anti-Ageism Regulations 1st October?
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Introduction of Anti-Ageism Regulations 1st October?
There are many mature pilots whon are looking for their first airline job and are hitting a brick wall with some small- minded companies. They are intent on taking young low houred pilots (nothing personal) who will admit to wanting to climb to the top of the ladder perhaps flying big jets. The problem is that obviously they will not stay at smaller companies for long which incurs high training costs. A more mature pilot would be more likely to stay and progress to captain (and reduce training costs).
The next argument is that older people are harder to train- crap, it is all down to the individual and their enthusiasm. Most mature pilots will also probably have experience and even if this is in light aircraft it is good experience - in command time, dealing with the weather, dealing with people and so on.
The problem is that a lot of these companies follow like sheep and adopt each others policies. There are a few who do not - thank god! Next year legislation comes into force that is supposed to stop this but i am sure they try to find a way around it.
If their are any mature pilots out their who are finding themselves up a creek wiithout a paddle i will interested to hear of their xperiences
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Scroggs
The next argument is that older people are harder to train- crap, it is all down to the individual and their enthusiasm. Most mature pilots will also probably have experience and even if this is in light aircraft it is good experience - in command time, dealing with the weather, dealing with people and so on.
The problem is that a lot of these companies follow like sheep and adopt each others policies. There are a few who do not - thank god! Next year legislation comes into force that is supposed to stop this but i am sure they try to find a way around it.
If their are any mature pilots out their who are finding themselves up a creek wiithout a paddle i will interested to hear of their xperiences
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Scroggs
Last edited by scroggs; 4th Mar 2005 at 17:18.
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Young Guys
You are correct about most of the young pilots not sticking around for too long and the airlines are well aware of this. That's one of the main reasons that more and more ailrines are asking the new recruits to fund their own type rating. Ryanair are a perfect example of this... you pay for your training and for the first couple of years, your wages are... crap? But stick around and you'll eventually be reaping the rewards of a large pay and a lot of experience. By that time, you may find better conditions elsewhere but not many airlines that can equal the pay scale.
There have been plenty of stories on here about older guys getting their first jobs and I hope you get some positive response and advice.
There have been plenty of stories on here about older guys getting their first jobs and I hope you get some positive response and advice.
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Well said nomercy, it is about time that airline management look more seriously at older low hour pilots for their first position. A good mix of younger and older guys as junior FO's would give a very good balance to any companies experience levels and commitment to the company. Chief Pilots,Training Captains as well as HR should look more closely into what an individual can offer a company in return for that first job!
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While there is a degree of age bias in airline recruiting, it is largely on the basis of 'experience commensurate with age'. However, and it may be an unpalatable premise, but the concept of complex training becoming more difficult to assimilate with age is fairly well established - and is one of the main reasons why the RAF and Royal Navy do not recruit pilots older than 23.
I suspect - though I may be wrong - that this factor will mean that the legislation in 2006 will have a fairly minimal effect on airline recruiting policies. It will have a far greater effect on retirement age.
That said, there are some companies that do recruit older inexperienced pilots.
Scroggs
I suspect - though I may be wrong - that this factor will mean that the legislation in 2006 will have a fairly minimal effect on airline recruiting policies. It will have a far greater effect on retirement age.
That said, there are some companies that do recruit older inexperienced pilots.
Scroggs
Does Age Discrimination exist? - Yes, I believe so.
Never mind lack of experience - here I am 54 years, 14,000 hrs total, 9,000 hrs jet, 4,500 on B737 variants, 1,800 on A320, 2000 hrs simulator instructing, 9 years as training captain in excellent health but I cant get a job in the airline industry!! Trouble is I am not current on type and the bank balance does not permit me to pay the money and do that myself.
Well its 4 a.m. and I am off to do my job in the Railway Industry!
Dont get mad though - get even!
Never mind lack of experience - here I am 54 years, 14,000 hrs total, 9,000 hrs jet, 4,500 on B737 variants, 1,800 on A320, 2000 hrs simulator instructing, 9 years as training captain in excellent health but I cant get a job in the airline industry!! Trouble is I am not current on type and the bank balance does not permit me to pay the money and do that myself.
Well its 4 a.m. and I am off to do my job in the Railway Industry!
Dont get mad though - get even!
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Age Discrimination
Age Discrimination? No such thing. Ex mil nav, 3500 hrs on a varierty of types, + MEP/IR instructor, close on 2000 hrs BUT over 40. Not even a hint of an interview in 2 years. I have been selective with my c.vs. and applications, not wishing to waste the time of those whose criteria I do not meet, but surely someone would value such experience?
We, I am sure, can all understand to a degree the preference for young, keen minds that learn quickly. However, there is a much-cited and very real other side of the argument. Us oldies want to settle into a niche, progress within one company and make our mark there. Not for us the constant clamouring to move on. We can offer much - maturity, experience, dogged determination, stability, and we have proven ourselves up to the task to date, etc.
I know, you've all heard it before. So, I'll get back in my box and keep on plugging away.
We, I am sure, can all understand to a degree the preference for young, keen minds that learn quickly. However, there is a much-cited and very real other side of the argument. Us oldies want to settle into a niche, progress within one company and make our mark there. Not for us the constant clamouring to move on. We can offer much - maturity, experience, dogged determination, stability, and we have proven ourselves up to the task to date, etc.
I know, you've all heard it before. So, I'll get back in my box and keep on plugging away.
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There have been some small glimmers of hope for us oldies recently - the successful ones have mostly been ex-Instructors.
Despite that, it's very obvious that we generally aren't even called for interview so the decision is taken long before we have a chance to make a case face-to-face with the recruitment people.
Loganair's recruitment policy is a mystery to me. Their recent recruits are what I would consider to be prime candidates for airline employment (young, integrated course graduates) but how many will stay even a year before looking for a jet job? It must surely make better economic sense for a small local airline operating basic turboprops to look for a mix of candidates including a number who'll stay for a reasonable length of time?
Despite that, it's very obvious that we generally aren't even called for interview so the decision is taken long before we have a chance to make a case face-to-face with the recruitment people.
Loganair's recruitment policy is a mystery to me. Their recent recruits are what I would consider to be prime candidates for airline employment (young, integrated course graduates) but how many will stay even a year before looking for a jet job? It must surely make better economic sense for a small local airline operating basic turboprops to look for a mix of candidates including a number who'll stay for a reasonable length of time?
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experience commensurate with age
i'm trying to resist posting but i can't.
this seems to be the unwritten policy of a lot of airlines like BA and britannia.
so how exactly does a 21-23 year old manage to come thru an integrated course? either by being given the money or remortgaging the parents house. yet someone slighty older who's saved or had a prev career then put themselves thru the training on their own two feet, and it's held against them?
it abs true about young pilots pissing off to the bigger operators even before the bond is out.
maybe the capts concerned feel more comfortable with a youngster next to them.
this seems to be the unwritten policy of a lot of airlines like BA and britannia.
so how exactly does a 21-23 year old manage to come thru an integrated course? either by being given the money or remortgaging the parents house. yet someone slighty older who's saved or had a prev career then put themselves thru the training on their own two feet, and it's held against them?
it abs true about young pilots pissing off to the bigger operators even before the bond is out.
maybe the capts concerned feel more comfortable with a youngster next to them.
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I think there is another issue here. Given that the industry has become much more commercially aggressive then there is a net benefit in employing younger people. Us oldies (44 here) are less maleable, more likely to speak up if there is something wrong with the operation and know what standards in the industry really mean.
To an employer with a slimmed down management team it must seem more attractive to employ young, green pilots.
This is, of course, until the day when an airline with a such a workforce has an accident and is called to account over its experience base.
To an employer with a slimmed down management team it must seem more attractive to employ young, green pilots.
This is, of course, until the day when an airline with a such a workforce has an accident and is called to account over its experience base.
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It would be lovely to think that there was some kind of consistency across the industry in this area, but there isn't. As far as I can tell, after several years of observing wannabes attempting to join the airlines, things such as your age, which school you went to, whether you did integrated or modular, how many instructional hours you have, and whether you wore a Simpsons tie to the interview, are entirely down to the prejudices of the recruiting manager of each individual airline.
One airline may swear blind that Oxford-trained applicants under 25 years old are the business, while another may prefer FIs, ex-modular, with a few years under their belts (and yes, I know these airlines are in the minority). There is no supportable objective reason for any of these prejudices, yet they exist. It may be that the new legislation could give those of you with deep pockets the weaponry to get an individual airline's recruiting policy subjected to legal review, but I doubt that many of you out there would go that route on your own. The answer may be to join and pressure BALPA or the IPA to make this one of their issues to pursue.
Scroggs
One airline may swear blind that Oxford-trained applicants under 25 years old are the business, while another may prefer FIs, ex-modular, with a few years under their belts (and yes, I know these airlines are in the minority). There is no supportable objective reason for any of these prejudices, yet they exist. It may be that the new legislation could give those of you with deep pockets the weaponry to get an individual airline's recruiting policy subjected to legal review, but I doubt that many of you out there would go that route on your own. The answer may be to join and pressure BALPA or the IPA to make this one of their issues to pursue.
Scroggs
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The age question is my biggest worry. At 36 I'm already thinking that I'm at the top of the hill looking down the other side. I have good hours under my belt but feel that if I'm not in an airline by the time I'm 40 then thats that. I agree with a lot of the posts here. Companies like Flybe are loosing pilots to the big boys left right and centre. These are young pilots looking to move on. I and many others a little older would more than likely stay with such companies for the rest of their flying career thus saving them vast amounts in ongoing training costs. Wake up to the the more mature pilots and have a stable work force. B&Q have done it, actively employing more mature staff and it has worked. The measure of a good company can be proven by its staff turnover.
So come on aviation world apply some logic in HR and dont write off a pilot just because he cant fit all his candles on his cake anymore.
Oh and Flybe was just and example but they can call me anytime.
So come on aviation world apply some logic in HR and dont write off a pilot just because he cant fit all his candles on his cake anymore.
Oh and Flybe was just and example but they can call me anytime.
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A lot of companies do recruit older guys, however, there are a lot of ex-mil with 2/3000 hrs behind them out there. This way the airline gets a blend of youth and experience.
These guys also suffer from ageism with the regionals. I think the earlier point about wanting young malleable FO's is valid. I also agree with Scroggs' comment about wanting experience commensurate with age. Individual airlines will decide what level they require.
As the Big Boys open up their recruitment, there will inevitably be vacancies at the other end. Things can only get better!
These guys also suffer from ageism with the regionals. I think the earlier point about wanting young malleable FO's is valid. I also agree with Scroggs' comment about wanting experience commensurate with age. Individual airlines will decide what level they require.
As the Big Boys open up their recruitment, there will inevitably be vacancies at the other end. Things can only get better!
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but the concept of complex training becoming more difficult to assimilate with age is fairly well established - and is one of the main reasons why the RAF and Royal Navy do not recruit pilots older than 23.
Just a couple of points on the RAF issue. They block recruiting at 23 so they have no data to support the notion that older new trainees are less capable. Also, their training regime is the probably the worlds toughest. Suggesting that a civil pilot needs the reactions of a FJ or herc dropper is like saying I couldn't be a cabby because I have no F1 experience.
Speaking personally, at 37, I find it just as easy to learn, both in terms of cognitive and motor skills.
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Actually, the RAF does have experience of teaching people to fly over the age of 23. Several times over the past 30 years the RAF has recruited from within. I shared a course in basic training (in 1977) with a bunch of people who had been Suppliers, P Ed, Admin and others - the oldest was well over 30. More recently, the RAF took a number of Tornado F3 navigators to retrain as pilots. On both these occasions, the results suggested that the standard policy was correct - and that they should have paid more attention to recruiting sufficient new blood in the first place!
The Royal Navy has very recently reduced its maximum entry-into-training age from 26 to 23 partly, though not entirely, for similar reasons. On top of that, both the RAF and the RN regularly re-train pilots on new types or variants throughout their flying careers, which can last exceptionally to age 62. All these factors give these organisations a considerable database of relevant and reliable information.
There are exceptions to every rule, and it's quite true that the demands of civilian airline training are not directly comparable to those of the armed forces, however many of the recruiting managers in the airlines you're targetting are ex-forces and so are already disposed towards this point of view. I suspect you'll also find that the HR departments are giving them similar advice. Lastly, it's a salient point that young trainees are more malleable and less likely to complain at bad treatment; I'm sure this is a factor in many airlines' thinking.
Scroggs
The Royal Navy has very recently reduced its maximum entry-into-training age from 26 to 23 partly, though not entirely, for similar reasons. On top of that, both the RAF and the RN regularly re-train pilots on new types or variants throughout their flying careers, which can last exceptionally to age 62. All these factors give these organisations a considerable database of relevant and reliable information.
There are exceptions to every rule, and it's quite true that the demands of civilian airline training are not directly comparable to those of the armed forces, however many of the recruiting managers in the airlines you're targetting are ex-forces and so are already disposed towards this point of view. I suspect you'll also find that the HR departments are giving them similar advice. Lastly, it's a salient point that young trainees are more malleable and less likely to complain at bad treatment; I'm sure this is a factor in many airlines' thinking.
Scroggs
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Lastly, it's a salient point that young trainees are more malleable and less likely to complain at bad treatment; I'm sure this is a factor in many airlines' thinking.
OK replace my comment of "no data" with "not much data"
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I joined the RAF at age 23 - at the top end of the age limit. I remember that, before I commenced flying training, OC 100 Sqn told me (at a B of B cocktail party) that the RAF were really interested in the 17 - 18 years olds due to their steeper learning curve.
Funny old thing, most of the younger guys on my Jet Provost course were chopped. I fought my way through to multi's relying on my few extra years maturity to overcome the various pressures and obstacles.
My point is that it really is a balance. Yes, it is a help to be young, flexible and a fast learner. However, flying is for grown ups and that helps too. The skills and experiences (once learned and honed for a few years) don't go away.
I am really irritated by (and sympathetic to) the plight of fireflybob. I once knew a pilot who took voluntary redundancy from BA and spent 17 years running a business. He returned to commercial flying in his fifties and ended up with a B737 command.
It really worries me this trend towards young and cheap pilots and I am sure I'm not the only one. Airlines know the price of everything and the value of nothing these days.
Toodle Pip
Funny old thing, most of the younger guys on my Jet Provost course were chopped. I fought my way through to multi's relying on my few extra years maturity to overcome the various pressures and obstacles.
My point is that it really is a balance. Yes, it is a help to be young, flexible and a fast learner. However, flying is for grown ups and that helps too. The skills and experiences (once learned and honed for a few years) don't go away.
I am really irritated by (and sympathetic to) the plight of fireflybob. I once knew a pilot who took voluntary redundancy from BA and spent 17 years running a business. He returned to commercial flying in his fifties and ended up with a B737 command.
It really worries me this trend towards young and cheap pilots and I am sure I'm not the only one. Airlines know the price of everything and the value of nothing these days.
Toodle Pip
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I have read the responses to my post with interest - obviously this is a major problem for many.
With regard to learning , on my ATPL course myself and another "oldie" recorded the second and third highest marks out of ten - On the course for my MPA type the older guys also done very well which shows that if you have some ability and determination age has no bearing.
The airlines have many silly phrases when translated mean they think you are too old. If you are good enough age should not matter. Also older guys are more of a known quantity because they have a work history which shows their qualities and abilities.
I have ensured that this issue has drawn the attention of several influential people and i hope that some airline companies see sense and give everyone a chance regardless of age.
With regard to learning , on my ATPL course myself and another "oldie" recorded the second and third highest marks out of ten - On the course for my MPA type the older guys also done very well which shows that if you have some ability and determination age has no bearing.
The airlines have many silly phrases when translated mean they think you are too old. If you are good enough age should not matter. Also older guys are more of a known quantity because they have a work history which shows their qualities and abilities.
I have ensured that this issue has drawn the attention of several influential people and i hope that some airline companies see sense and give everyone a chance regardless of age.
Last edited by nomercy; 7th Mar 2005 at 18:15.
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To an employer with a slimmed down management team it must seem more attractive to employ young, green pilots. This is, of course, until the day when an airline with a such a workforce has an accident and is called to account over its experience base.