What the hell are we supposed to do?
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Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and support, as of Monday I start as an IT consultant at a large food company, seem like nice people, nice offices, and well paid........It will at least kill off the debts very quickly and give me room to breath...
I will miss getting up in the morning blasting through the door and feeling thoroughly enthusiastic about my work as a flying instructor....sadly, IT, as well paid as it might be, is nothing to get excited about at all....-I'll be encapsulated in an office block for 35 hours a week......but its a job I know..
Well, at least the internet access is free, and I can be sending apps out on my lunch break...
Keep you posted
WB
I will miss getting up in the morning blasting through the door and feeling thoroughly enthusiastic about my work as a flying instructor....sadly, IT, as well paid as it might be, is nothing to get excited about at all....-I'll be encapsulated in an office block for 35 hours a week......but its a job I know..
Well, at least the internet access is free, and I can be sending apps out on my lunch break...
Keep you posted
WB
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Good luck
WB,
Things happen for a reason, though it is not always evident why it is happening at the time. There's a lesson in every experience. Think about what this situation meant for you.
Pay attention to your immediate priorities (as you are doing) and go with the flow.
Keep focused on your long-term goals and soon you'll see how things will work out. You'll get there.
It's all about attitude. Most importantly, take it easy. The best things in life are achieved with a light heart.
Things happen for a reason, though it is not always evident why it is happening at the time. There's a lesson in every experience. Think about what this situation meant for you.
Pay attention to your immediate priorities (as you are doing) and go with the flow.
Keep focused on your long-term goals and soon you'll see how things will work out. You'll get there.
It's all about attitude. Most importantly, take it easy. The best things in life are achieved with a light heart.
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Wingbar
Braveman. I know exactly how crushing it is to have to return to your old mundane job after having got out of it once and achieved the first tentative step on the flying career ladder.
Keep bashing out CV's......... much better still, go and visit people at the weekends and good things should happen. It did for me, and not a moment too soon. I was almost ready to kill myself after having to return to banking when my seasonal flying job came to an end. Still, a month or so back in the real (but very sh*tty) world makes you appreciate even more all your hard work when eventually it does all come together.
Good luck to you sir.
Buzz
ps, C Scott says hi.
Braveman. I know exactly how crushing it is to have to return to your old mundane job after having got out of it once and achieved the first tentative step on the flying career ladder.
Keep bashing out CV's......... much better still, go and visit people at the weekends and good things should happen. It did for me, and not a moment too soon. I was almost ready to kill myself after having to return to banking when my seasonal flying job came to an end. Still, a month or so back in the real (but very sh*tty) world makes you appreciate even more all your hard work when eventually it does all come together.
Good luck to you sir.
Buzz
ps, C Scott says hi.
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Thank you Light heart and Buzzc150,
It is hard and I'm preparing my self emotionally for whats coming next, I think Light Heart is right, maybe when you want something so much you can't quite reach it , it's when you take a step back you see the solution...I think the IT will be a positive step, - It will keep my brain sharp, but not excited...I will just have to grin and bare it...but theres worse things in the world...
At least one thing I know, when I start on Monday, I gave it my best shot this summer;- had a superb time, flew the schedule until the aircraft were out of 50 hours in days..built some time and made some lovely friends, for that I am very thankful..
I am not giving up, but I have to be real and live in the world of bills and salary and the rest..as we all have to.
I shall try to do the odd weekend when I can, just a few hours here and there to keep me current.
Thank you for your kindness,
WB
It is hard and I'm preparing my self emotionally for whats coming next, I think Light Heart is right, maybe when you want something so much you can't quite reach it , it's when you take a step back you see the solution...I think the IT will be a positive step, - It will keep my brain sharp, but not excited...I will just have to grin and bare it...but theres worse things in the world...
At least one thing I know, when I start on Monday, I gave it my best shot this summer;- had a superb time, flew the schedule until the aircraft were out of 50 hours in days..built some time and made some lovely friends, for that I am very thankful..
I am not giving up, but I have to be real and live in the world of bills and salary and the rest..as we all have to.
I shall try to do the odd weekend when I can, just a few hours here and there to keep me current.
Thank you for your kindness,
WB
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I've read this thread with interest. I can understand wingbar's frustration to some extent. Been there myself. In debt and no obvious way forward.
However I would be more understanding if wingbar was 35 years old rather than less than 25. I would be more understanding if wingbar had 1600 hours under his belt rather than 600 and couldn't find a job. I would be more understanding if he didn't have an Instructor's rating and couldn't afford to stay current because of his debts.
In short in comparsion to many, wingbar you are lucky, you are young, you have an instructor's rating and you have 600 hours already. You are damm lucky. At your age I had none of the above. Get some perspective. There is plenty of time for you achieve the career you want. Come back in ten years time and cry about it then if you must.
Right now all you have to do is sort out your current financial situation and stay current. If that means getting a job in IT so be it. Come back in two years time and try again. Two years is nothing in the overall scheme of things, believe me.
You will see things differently by then. I have noticed that when many people reach the age 24 or 25, a degree of maturity kicks in.
I had similiar set backs and years out of flying like many others. But like the seasons, opportunities come around again and again.
I have occasionally told my story to non flyers notably my wife and they always expressed amazement or sympathy with my 'plight'.
But I always point out: This is not a sad story, don't bother having any sympathy for me. I enjoyed every minute of the flying and would do it all again. I had fantastic experiences over the years. No one asked me to become a pilot and I have no right to a career. If I wanted to fly for a living, then I needed to work hard for it and be patient.
It's as simple as that. You don't need sympathy, your story is not a sad story. It's a temporary glitch in a potentially long career.
There are no sad stories here.
However I would be more understanding if wingbar was 35 years old rather than less than 25. I would be more understanding if wingbar had 1600 hours under his belt rather than 600 and couldn't find a job. I would be more understanding if he didn't have an Instructor's rating and couldn't afford to stay current because of his debts.
In short in comparsion to many, wingbar you are lucky, you are young, you have an instructor's rating and you have 600 hours already. You are damm lucky. At your age I had none of the above. Get some perspective. There is plenty of time for you achieve the career you want. Come back in ten years time and cry about it then if you must.
Right now all you have to do is sort out your current financial situation and stay current. If that means getting a job in IT so be it. Come back in two years time and try again. Two years is nothing in the overall scheme of things, believe me.
You will see things differently by then. I have noticed that when many people reach the age 24 or 25, a degree of maturity kicks in.
I had similiar set backs and years out of flying like many others. But like the seasons, opportunities come around again and again.
I have occasionally told my story to non flyers notably my wife and they always expressed amazement or sympathy with my 'plight'.
But I always point out: This is not a sad story, don't bother having any sympathy for me. I enjoyed every minute of the flying and would do it all again. I had fantastic experiences over the years. No one asked me to become a pilot and I have no right to a career. If I wanted to fly for a living, then I needed to work hard for it and be patient.
It's as simple as that. You don't need sympathy, your story is not a sad story. It's a temporary glitch in a potentially long career.
There are no sad stories here.
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First day back in the office.... peeking out of the windows....I want my cockpit back asap....I will do everything in my power to return...this is definately temporary.....
WB
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However I would be more understanding if wingbar was 35 years old rather than less than 25. I would be more understanding if wingbar had 1600 hours under his belt rather than 600 and couldn't find a job. I would be more understanding if he didn't have an Instructor's rating and couldn't afford to stay current because of his debts.
Well...I am in the first case you mentioned, apart for those 1000+ hrs that I wish I had if the system wasn't in the way it is here...Ehhhhhhmmm...sorry about it! Should I lease wingbar thread & posts and put my nick in it, then? I took his very same way few weeks ago, with a chocked heart...still, I keep my mouth shut and look for better times but I cannot see any for the time being. Just one thing: financial debt isn't that bad. The spiritual or moral is not longer refoundable to those I contracted with, so...think twice before posting any reply.
Wingbar, hope you'll drop office job for a flightdeck soon mate. Wish you all the best.
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Well having read through this lengthy topic I only have a couple of comments to add... As a self (and I do mean self) funded Integrated student I met one or two "Lucifers" during my training, and they soured the atmosphere a little for me. As a type they are highly gullible and naive.
Throughout my professional life I have sought the best training from one of the big name, highly-regarded institutions and I applied the same pholosophy to aviation. However, when you are paying yourself the question of value for money arises. One might also regret paying up front for a service not yet delivered, and in this way I was also probably a bit naive initially, if I am honest. However, I always kept an open and enquiring mind.
Thankfully "Lucifers" are rare, but these people do their compatriots no favours in the real world of aviation, which is a fantastically diverse place full of people from all walks of life with all kinds of flying backgrounds and aviation/life experience.
Thankfully this kind of attitude is a minority view, but it is non the less ill informed and all totally unsubstantiated, as WWW and Scroggs have attested. Not that any of this matters 6 months down the line as WWW says, but in my subsequent airline training I find that most of the colleagues I meet in the crew room or the sim centre have a modular training background these days.
Any credible commentator will be someone who takes a blanced view of this debate; there are all sorts of factors involved in making the decision on how and where to conduct your training. I enjoyed my basic training and have some good friends from those days, but there are also some excellent modular schools out there and with hindsight, if I had to do it all again, on the same budget I'd set myself a disciplined timetable for it all and go modular, saving the integrated "cost premium" for a FI rating &/or a self-sponsored type rating if necessary (as it increasingly is).
There are as many flight training ideologies out there as there are preachers, (or marketeers). However, with hindsight, my view now is that for the same money it has to be a better bet to have the same licence and a FI or to be type qualified (albeit following a selection process, and on some sort of cadet scheme) than simply integrated and at the whim of both the market and your school.
Again, just my thoughts.
Happy landings to all,
George
Throughout my professional life I have sought the best training from one of the big name, highly-regarded institutions and I applied the same pholosophy to aviation. However, when you are paying yourself the question of value for money arises. One might also regret paying up front for a service not yet delivered, and in this way I was also probably a bit naive initially, if I am honest. However, I always kept an open and enquiring mind.
Thankfully "Lucifers" are rare, but these people do their compatriots no favours in the real world of aviation, which is a fantastically diverse place full of people from all walks of life with all kinds of flying backgrounds and aviation/life experience.
Thankfully this kind of attitude is a minority view, but it is non the less ill informed and all totally unsubstantiated, as WWW and Scroggs have attested. Not that any of this matters 6 months down the line as WWW says, but in my subsequent airline training I find that most of the colleagues I meet in the crew room or the sim centre have a modular training background these days.
Any credible commentator will be someone who takes a blanced view of this debate; there are all sorts of factors involved in making the decision on how and where to conduct your training. I enjoyed my basic training and have some good friends from those days, but there are also some excellent modular schools out there and with hindsight, if I had to do it all again, on the same budget I'd set myself a disciplined timetable for it all and go modular, saving the integrated "cost premium" for a FI rating &/or a self-sponsored type rating if necessary (as it increasingly is).
There are as many flight training ideologies out there as there are preachers, (or marketeers). However, with hindsight, my view now is that for the same money it has to be a better bet to have the same licence and a FI or to be type qualified (albeit following a selection process, and on some sort of cadet scheme) than simply integrated and at the whim of both the market and your school.
Again, just my thoughts.
Happy landings to all,
George
Last edited by George Foreman; 14th Sep 2006 at 02:47. Reason: emphasis
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wingbar is in the same situation I was years ago...
wait for the good opportunity to get a job think airlines will hire mature pilots, and 10 years later, you discover a new wall in front of you
, at 40, you are to old to learn.
I recently received emails telling me max age 32yo to apply and the candidate must have no experience.
So what 's the point to pay for a training, when you can apply and not invest one penny from your pocket?
wait for the good opportunity to get a job think airlines will hire mature pilots, and 10 years later, you discover a new wall in front of you
, at 40, you are to old to learn.I recently received emails telling me max age 32yo to apply and the candidate must have no experience.
So what 's the point to pay for a training, when you can apply and not invest one penny from your pocket?
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Just got out of IT back into intruction to realise......what the hell, I can't pay the bills again.....
I walked out of IT after just one day in the role, it was a 34000 p/a job as well....I feel so so stupid...it would have helped sort a lot of things out...but the aviator in me just said go for the flying.......
So I'm now trying to get an aviation related ground job, really the instruction will have to be part time..........
I'm off to the dole office until I find something full time.......
I can't believe the knightmare I'm in, plus I just joined a really nice company to instruct with too, they have high standards, lovely aircraft, but I cannot afford to live off this....its so so sad......
I really don't know whats going to become of me at this rate.....again close to tears as usual....
WB
I walked out of IT after just one day in the role, it was a 34000 p/a job as well....I feel so so stupid...it would have helped sort a lot of things out...but the aviator in me just said go for the flying.......
So I'm now trying to get an aviation related ground job, really the instruction will have to be part time..........
I'm off to the dole office until I find something full time.......
I can't believe the knightmare I'm in, plus I just joined a really nice company to instruct with too, they have high standards, lovely aircraft, but I cannot afford to live off this....its so so sad......
I really don't know whats going to become of me at this rate.....again close to tears as usual....
WB
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Wingbar, I seriously sympathise with your situation; I hope I'm never in a position where I can't afford to pay bills because my job doesn't pay well enough.
But at the same time, and I don't want to sound too harsh here, how many chances do you want? People on here have given you a lot of good, sound advice, most of which centered around getting back into your IT job, finding your feet and sorting out your finances then moving back into flying when you can support it - which, from your subsequent posts, it sounded like you were following. Announcing publicly on here that you lasted a whole day and you're back to square one is tantamount to sticking two fingers up at all the good-hearted people who have tried to help you out.
You can't just say "the aviator in me just said go for the flying". The lazy arse in me says quite frequently "don't bother studying for your exams today, sit around and have a few beers and play Football Manager for a few hours" but I have to shut that out because I know if I don't study my potential career is on the line. By the same principle, you just have to accept that there is no magic wand that can be waved and you are going to have to do something you don't want to do. Plus, in the future, how do you think this is going to look to an airline as an employer?
"So, Mr. Wingbar, we notice from your CV you worked at an IT firm for one day before leaving. What happened there?"
"Umm, well, I didn't like it very much."
"Oh really? So what's going to happen if there comes a bit of your airline training you don't like? Are you just going to abandon it and leave?"
I feel quite bad lecturing someone I don't know and who is seemingly at his wits' end, particularly when it comes to stating the obvious like this, but what more do you want from people on here? A load of posts from people saying "don't worry Wingbar, everything will be OK" is not going to pay the bills or get you into an airline job.
If I were you I'd be crawling back to your IT ex-manager's desk, spitting and polishing his shoes and begging for your IT job back. Play on Flight Simulator in your lunch breaks if you must satisfy your insatiable appetite for flying, but the best advice that can be given to you has already been given long ago in this thread. Do the flying part time, get a full time job and get those bills paid before you think about moving on. I genuinely feel sorry for your situation, but only you can sort it out.
But at the same time, and I don't want to sound too harsh here, how many chances do you want? People on here have given you a lot of good, sound advice, most of which centered around getting back into your IT job, finding your feet and sorting out your finances then moving back into flying when you can support it - which, from your subsequent posts, it sounded like you were following. Announcing publicly on here that you lasted a whole day and you're back to square one is tantamount to sticking two fingers up at all the good-hearted people who have tried to help you out.
You can't just say "the aviator in me just said go for the flying". The lazy arse in me says quite frequently "don't bother studying for your exams today, sit around and have a few beers and play Football Manager for a few hours" but I have to shut that out because I know if I don't study my potential career is on the line. By the same principle, you just have to accept that there is no magic wand that can be waved and you are going to have to do something you don't want to do. Plus, in the future, how do you think this is going to look to an airline as an employer?
"So, Mr. Wingbar, we notice from your CV you worked at an IT firm for one day before leaving. What happened there?"
"Umm, well, I didn't like it very much."
"Oh really? So what's going to happen if there comes a bit of your airline training you don't like? Are you just going to abandon it and leave?"
I feel quite bad lecturing someone I don't know and who is seemingly at his wits' end, particularly when it comes to stating the obvious like this, but what more do you want from people on here? A load of posts from people saying "don't worry Wingbar, everything will be OK" is not going to pay the bills or get you into an airline job.
If I were you I'd be crawling back to your IT ex-manager's desk, spitting and polishing his shoes and begging for your IT job back. Play on Flight Simulator in your lunch breaks if you must satisfy your insatiable appetite for flying, but the best advice that can be given to you has already been given long ago in this thread. Do the flying part time, get a full time job and get those bills paid before you think about moving on. I genuinely feel sorry for your situation, but only you can sort it out.
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Mr Wingbar.
Is there no way you could do IT during the week and instruct part time on the weekends? I've look at this thread from time to time and it seems you were getting things sorted with a job that will ease the pressure of your debt, which I think is the key thing here. If you are in debt you need to take decisive action and stick to your guns. Is your latest return to instructing backed up by a plan that will see you work towards financial solvency? Mate as hard as it may be for you to palate right now, you need a full time job to pay your way through the next few years. If you can find a ground based job in aviation great, but for 34K a year it is going to be something similar to your IT role - office based looking out the window type stuff - that will still leave you longing to be in the air. Personally I think you had a ticket out of your predicament with the IT job.
If you stick at it you will get there, you have to believe that. The most direct route out of debt should be your priority right now, not the most direct route to a better paid flying job. It might not have seemed like it sat behind that desk but the IT job could actually be the best and most expedient way of combining and achieving both those goals.
All the best mate.
Is there no way you could do IT during the week and instruct part time on the weekends? I've look at this thread from time to time and it seems you were getting things sorted with a job that will ease the pressure of your debt, which I think is the key thing here. If you are in debt you need to take decisive action and stick to your guns. Is your latest return to instructing backed up by a plan that will see you work towards financial solvency? Mate as hard as it may be for you to palate right now, you need a full time job to pay your way through the next few years. If you can find a ground based job in aviation great, but for 34K a year it is going to be something similar to your IT role - office based looking out the window type stuff - that will still leave you longing to be in the air. Personally I think you had a ticket out of your predicament with the IT job.
If you stick at it you will get there, you have to believe that. The most direct route out of debt should be your priority right now, not the most direct route to a better paid flying job. It might not have seemed like it sat behind that desk but the IT job could actually be the best and most expedient way of combining and achieving both those goals.
All the best mate.
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I have to agree with the previous two posters. IT maybe cr*p, but if it keeps the wolf from the door.....
Just be thankful you aren't struggling just to stay alive somewhere in the 3rd world.
If you want to fly, then you have to make sacrifices. If that means you need to pay off your debt, then so be it.
Get a grip man and get a bit of perspective. There are millions of people on this planet who'd kill for what you currently have. You'll start sounding like a whinging child soon. Lots of people do jobs they hate, you are fortunate that it need only be a temporary solution until you can sort the finances out.
Just be thankful you aren't struggling just to stay alive somewhere in the 3rd world.
If you want to fly, then you have to make sacrifices. If that means you need to pay off your debt, then so be it.
Get a grip man and get a bit of perspective. There are millions of people on this planet who'd kill for what you currently have. You'll start sounding like a whinging child soon. Lots of people do jobs they hate, you are fortunate that it need only be a temporary solution until you can sort the finances out.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
I) Make a list prioritising your needs and then set about addressing those needs.
II) Take personal responsibility for your action (and inaction).
III) Stop wasting your time on PPRuNe; print off this thread and highlight all the good advice, there is more than enough to keep you going.
Tomorrow isn't going to be any better unless you do something today to make it better.
SR
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Wingbar,
The first day in a new job is always the hardest. It'll get easier the longer you stay there. £34K is a good salary and I don't think walking out on that is a wise move especially when you have high debts! I think you must be under quite a bit of stress to make such a quick decision to leave after just one day! There are plenty of people you can talk to (for free) for help/advice in confidence rather than exposing yourself on here. Don't rule out this option- have an open mind and you'll be surprised how different things will look and a bit of clarity will come your way.
You are not alone in this world. Ask people for help in any way they can. Most people feel good about helping others and one day you'll be able to return the favour. Networking is the key. Keep plugging away with applications (review your CV), keep up to date with which airlines are recruiting, regularly make phone calls to airlines (some like this some don't but just be polite and you'll soon know which ones you can/can't phone),join BALPA and IPA. Form a job hunting group with other unemployed fatpl holders (unemployed by way of not a flying job). Go out there and be proactive. Hang around an airport on your day off and try and catch any pilots walking past and have cv's with you to hand out. Ask the airline if you can arrange a visit to their head office(they can only say no!) Just go for it!! You can do it!!!! At the end of the day you get out what you put in. Have an action plan written down and then do it.
3 key qualities that an airline wants when hiring an airline pilot
1) Determination - Cheap to train/don't be a training risk
2) Responsible - Don't prang the plane, good role model, leader
3) Flexible/Adaptable - Open minded, blend in with the team (conflict management, good communicator etc, i.e good CRM skills
Hope this helps
The Aviator1977
p.s I'm still looking for my first job too but i'm more determined than ever to succeed and will never give up
The first day in a new job is always the hardest. It'll get easier the longer you stay there. £34K is a good salary and I don't think walking out on that is a wise move especially when you have high debts! I think you must be under quite a bit of stress to make such a quick decision to leave after just one day! There are plenty of people you can talk to (for free) for help/advice in confidence rather than exposing yourself on here. Don't rule out this option- have an open mind and you'll be surprised how different things will look and a bit of clarity will come your way.
You are not alone in this world. Ask people for help in any way they can. Most people feel good about helping others and one day you'll be able to return the favour. Networking is the key. Keep plugging away with applications (review your CV), keep up to date with which airlines are recruiting, regularly make phone calls to airlines (some like this some don't but just be polite and you'll soon know which ones you can/can't phone),join BALPA and IPA. Form a job hunting group with other unemployed fatpl holders (unemployed by way of not a flying job). Go out there and be proactive. Hang around an airport on your day off and try and catch any pilots walking past and have cv's with you to hand out. Ask the airline if you can arrange a visit to their head office(they can only say no!) Just go for it!! You can do it!!!! At the end of the day you get out what you put in. Have an action plan written down and then do it.
3 key qualities that an airline wants when hiring an airline pilot
1) Determination - Cheap to train/don't be a training risk
2) Responsible - Don't prang the plane, good role model, leader
3) Flexible/Adaptable - Open minded, blend in with the team (conflict management, good communicator etc, i.e good CRM skills
Hope this helps
The Aviator1977
p.s I'm still looking for my first job too but i'm more determined than ever to succeed and will never give up
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Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your support as usuall, its really lovely to know I have some friends around..it can be a lonely time.....
I have been on the look out for more IT jobs today, as I may not be able to get one back after I walked out on the last...or if I do it will be an entry level job......I can't believe this is all happening......I may literally have to get one or 2 badly paid jobs BK, Tesco's because my name is effectively mud in the at certain IT recruitment agencys...
I will get there though.......
I am strong enough to recover from this awful awful state...
I had to call the flying school where I am today and tell them I can't fly because I cant afford it..... what a shame.....
To every problem theres a solution, and I'll try my best to find one...
But sadly it means coming out of full time flying....again....and again...
WB
Thank you all for your support as usuall, its really lovely to know I have some friends around..it can be a lonely time.....
I have been on the look out for more IT jobs today, as I may not be able to get one back after I walked out on the last...or if I do it will be an entry level job......I can't believe this is all happening......I may literally have to get one or 2 badly paid jobs BK, Tesco's because my name is effectively mud in the at certain IT recruitment agencys...
I will get there though.......
I am strong enough to recover from this awful awful state...
I had to call the flying school where I am today and tell them I can't fly because I cant afford it..... what a shame.....
To every problem theres a solution, and I'll try my best to find one...
But sadly it means coming out of full time flying....again....and again...
WB
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This is all making me very ill indeed,..In fact I'm retiring from flying as of today, just for a short while until I get this hideous mess sorted out.....I have just been offered a very poorly paid office job...which I may now have to take.....the pay is so poor that the first hours work will just about cover the bus fair in and the parking, ...
I spend most days trying to gain my sanity,
Flyings not a thing to be doing when you feel this way out....
I spend most days trying to gain my sanity,
Flyings not a thing to be doing when you feel this way out....