What the hell are we supposed to do?
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
It is risky, it is of course a gamble but it is facile to suggest that it is "highly foolish" to go down the modular route.
What is highly foolish is to spend any large amount of money without informing oneself of the risks involved.
Wingbar: Best of luck.
SR
Last edited by speedrestriction; 28th Aug 2006 at 13:45. Reason: Edited for missing letters!!
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I'm looking at doing the Instructor thing for 18 months.
If my maths is right can someone tell me if this is the case?
£15 x 600hrs = £9000 before tax
Not worth getting out of bed for.
What sort of hours per year does a good instructror get at a busy school?
Cheers/Bob
If my maths is right can someone tell me if this is the case?
£15 x 600hrs = £9000 before tax
Not worth getting out of bed for.
What sort of hours per year does a good instructror get at a busy school?
Cheers/Bob
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Yes Bob the pay is Gash! No doubt! There are lots of plus points however. As www said no flying = rusty skills and failed sim rides etc. Its a first step on the aviation ladder if you like. You meet people and broaden your approach and knowledge of aviation. I was an instructor and it hurt me financially ofcourse, I can safely say however, there is no way I could have moved on if it were'nt for that rating. Faces and contacts are the key, it never did me any harm or the many other MODULAR guys (Lucifer!!) who now fly jets with whom I worked with.
Weather pending, a busy school could in theory provide you with maybe as much as 20hrs per week. Possibly more, who knows? The money might not be worth getting out of bed for, the flying sure is.
Good luck, you work hard, you get results....In the end lol!
Weather pending, a busy school could in theory provide you with maybe as much as 20hrs per week. Possibly more, who knows? The money might not be worth getting out of bed for, the flying sure is.
Good luck, you work hard, you get results....In the end lol!
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Morning
Echo comments made by SR.
Found comments by Lucifer a little insulting being of modualar background myself, implying modular = inferior quality pilot. Poor show on your part old boy!
Anyway.
Wingbar - come on, its a fantastic day for flying today go and enjoy it. Most ex-instructors can testify to having crap days, apart from anything else stay positive for your student (I'm sure you do).
I think that you are in a great position, I would say keep instructing till you have over 1000 hrs total, than maybe go part-time; working in an airline ops department the rest of the time. I have said this before in previous posts. You will make good contacts whilst earning a better living.
In your post you mention about a company that you have been recruited for telling lies - care to elaborate.
Keep going, keeping putting the effort in and you will get there.
Im going off to enjoy the day with the missus.
L.
Echo comments made by SR.
Found comments by Lucifer a little insulting being of modualar background myself, implying modular = inferior quality pilot. Poor show on your part old boy!
Anyway.
Wingbar - come on, its a fantastic day for flying today go and enjoy it. Most ex-instructors can testify to having crap days, apart from anything else stay positive for your student (I'm sure you do).
I think that you are in a great position, I would say keep instructing till you have over 1000 hrs total, than maybe go part-time; working in an airline ops department the rest of the time. I have said this before in previous posts. You will make good contacts whilst earning a better living.
In your post you mention about a company that you have been recruited for telling lies - care to elaborate.
Keep going, keeping putting the effort in and you will get there.
Im going off to enjoy the day with the missus.
L.
Just kind of following on from not well paid flying jobs but you are more in it for the experience. I did my first 2 hours aerial photography flying the other day for which I won't charge. But I feel next time I should charge.
How much per hour does a pilot charge for flying a photographer around in a C152?
All the best Mooneyboy
P.S I do have CPL/ME etc....
How much per hour does a pilot charge for flying a photographer around in a C152?
All the best Mooneyboy
P.S I do have CPL/ME etc....
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What on earth?
I feel that I just have to get a bit of a rant of my chest about the comments that 'Lucifer' has made about modular training v's integrated training, as I feel as though she (?) has made some totally unsubstantiated points and irritated lots of us.
If you feel this negatively about flying, why are you even bothering?
I don't know what stage of training you are at, but I get the sense that if you do get a job in the rhs, then you will P*** a lot of captains off.
Now, why don't you go back to watching the X-Factor? Maybe you'd do well?
Single question:
Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish. Considering the market has probably now passed its peak, it can only be a salutory lesson for someone considering investing his cash, that a hardworking modular chap cannot find an airline job.
How would you know? Are you the head of recruitment at an airline? Not every airline prefers integrated pilots.
The airlines want a low training risk person, with one verifiable training record who can be trained in minimum time from a known standard.
True, but if you choose to follow a modular route (possibly the only way that some of us can pursue our dream for various personal circumstances) it does not mean that you do not have the same ability as a student who has chosen to follow the integrated route
If you have not followed all the advice here and elsewhere and done something else, then I am sorry, but the market has decided.
We are not in a game of charity here - there are too many people who desparately want to be pilots. And that quite frankly leads to too many people giving too much to be pilots, and doing it the cheap does not help at all.
I don't think that a modular bill of £30,000 - £40,000 = cheap
Consider this - there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy. It is (surprisingly) as they are what the airlines want.
As an aside - watch the X Factor and consider how different the terrible pop star wannabes are from all those who want to get into flying, and ignore all advice, and play it by their own rules. There may be some who make it, but most do not.
Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish. Considering the market has probably now passed its peak, it can only be a salutory lesson for someone considering investing his cash, that a hardworking modular chap cannot find an airline job.
How would you know? Are you the head of recruitment at an airline? Not every airline prefers integrated pilots.
The airlines want a low training risk person, with one verifiable training record who can be trained in minimum time from a known standard.
True, but if you choose to follow a modular route (possibly the only way that some of us can pursue our dream for various personal circumstances) it does not mean that you do not have the same ability as a student who has chosen to follow the integrated route
If you have not followed all the advice here and elsewhere and done something else, then I am sorry, but the market has decided.
We are not in a game of charity here - there are too many people who desparately want to be pilots. And that quite frankly leads to too many people giving too much to be pilots, and doing it the cheap does not help at all.
I don't think that a modular bill of £30,000 - £40,000 = cheap
Consider this - there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy. It is (surprisingly) as they are what the airlines want.
As an aside - watch the X Factor and consider how different the terrible pop star wannabes are from all those who want to get into flying, and ignore all advice, and play it by their own rules. There may be some who make it, but most do not.
I don't know what stage of training you are at, but I get the sense that if you do get a job in the rhs, then you will P*** a lot of captains off.
Now, why don't you go back to watching the X-Factor? Maybe you'd do well?
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Found comments by Lucifer a little insulting being of modualar background myself, implying modular = inferior quality pilot.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
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guys,
getting a job is just a question of luck.Nothing else!!
the first job I got on turboprop, was after a personal visit to the company .I was lucky, they needed pilots.
then a few months later, the company went bankrupt. so I lost my job.no luck this time...
Recently I was hired by an airline. they asked me :"when did you fly last time?...I answered" 3 weeks ago" and I got the job after a short sim session.this time I was very lucky(fly a jet).
Then the airline told me to wait, now this is 3 months I wait , again I am unlucky...no pay (again)!
at the end: 4-5 interviews in 7 years..., passed only 2.and I am still waiting .
What I want say, it has nothing to do with money, integrated course or not...it is just a question of luck!
the biggest bug in this system, training costs to much, and salaries are very low.
Aviation goes up and down. One day you have a job, the next day you are in the streets begging for money...
getting a job is just a question of luck.Nothing else!!
the first job I got on turboprop, was after a personal visit to the company .I was lucky, they needed pilots.
then a few months later, the company went bankrupt. so I lost my job.no luck this time...
Recently I was hired by an airline. they asked me :"when did you fly last time?...I answered" 3 weeks ago" and I got the job after a short sim session.this time I was very lucky(fly a jet).
Then the airline told me to wait, now this is 3 months I wait , again I am unlucky...no pay (again)!
at the end: 4-5 interviews in 7 years..., passed only 2.and I am still waiting .
What I want say, it has nothing to do with money, integrated course or not...it is just a question of luck!
the biggest bug in this system, training costs to much, and salaries are very low.
Aviation goes up and down. One day you have a job, the next day you are in the streets begging for money...
Last edited by dartagnan; 28th Aug 2006 at 11:47.
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You know, someone told me before I got in to this business that it was extremely risky, and you might spend so much money that you bring your self to the edge of bankruptcy. In fact, more than one person told me that. You then sit down with all the information and make a decision. 12, 24 or 36 months down the line or however long it takes you to finish your training be you integrated OR modular, if you reach the point where their advice proves to be true, then you took the risk and it didn't pay off. Anyone who has half a brain did their research properly before getting involved. You should be as positive as you can be (and certainly put out that vibe at every opportunity), but at the back of your mind be mentally preparing for the worst from the very start. What am I going to do if I don't get a job in the first 12 months, or 24 months, or what if I don't get one at all?
I've seen a number of presentations from airlines over the last few months and to be honest it has been quite disheartening. But at the end of the day, I chose to take the risk and if it doesn't work out I'll have to deal with it. You certainly won't find me posting angry posts on pprune shouting about how the industry is going down the plug hole and how no-one should ever become a pilot, yada yada yada, as so many posts seem to do. Its a personal decision and it will be affected by different factors for everyone.
Nor, by the way, do I think people have any right to slate modular OR integrated students for their choice. Both parties made the decision they thought was best at the time. The guy who has rich parents and went integrated shouldn't have to justify his choice any more than the guy who went modular should have to justify his. You simply can't say definitively that one way is better than the other. Money aside their are so many other considerations - will distance learning suit you or do you need to be in a classroom environment? Do you want to live on site or live in your own place off site?
Regardless of which way you go its all a gamble. You can slightly reduce the risk by going integrated purely because several airlines now have schemes/understandings set up with the big integrated schools and it might (subject to performing well) mean that your CV lands on the right desk at the right time. Im my opinion modular students can also reduce the risk by trying to keep their training auditable and mainly based at a single FTO, and complete it in as shorter space of time as possible. Doing your ATPL's, then waiting months and months to start your CPL, then another X many months for IR and MCC means you start to lack currency, costing you more money to reach the required standard and making your position worse with a prospective employer.
And thats the one thing that has been continually hammered in to me. These days, performance is everything. Airlines will consistently hire the guy who got a clean first time pass rate in his ATPL's with a high average and first time CPL/IR passes, over the guy who had to resit 2 or 3 exams, got a poor average and failed his/her CPL a couple of times before he/she got it. The exact line I've heard mentioned is "we want the best pilots and we make no excuse for that". So maybe if you get to the first set of ATPL's and drop a couple, you should think seriously before investing any more money.
The "its not fair" and "why should integrated students get all the goodies" argument is completely flawed. Firstly, integrated students definately do not get all the goodies. I personally know several modular students hired very recently by major carriers and similarly integrated students who are unemployed. Second, Airlines are commercial companies operating in a highly competitive market place. If, on average, they decide to go to Integrated schools to hire their pilot's, then who are we to question that? They can do whatever they like - indeed whatever they feel is best for their company and moaning and hammering on about it on here is not going to instigate the slightest bit of change. More and more airlines seem to be opting to do this and I can only assume the reason is that at the end of the course, they get a hefty file with results from every single written test and every single training flight - a complete training history. So, instead of having to dig through the thousands of CV's which appear on their desks every day they get handed it on a plate. They can still sift out those who didn't perform as well, but it takes them a tenth of the time, and it only takes 1 guy instead of 5. I haven't come across many modular schools who offer an "integrated style" course at a modular price. I know Oxford do something called waypoint now but I know very little about it. Certainly at the modular school I went to for my PPL, there we very few records kept and those they did keep were for internal use only.
Anyway, in summary having read this thread (and several others) my overriding feeling is that its a shame that so many of us who will hopefully one day work together get drawn in to these ridiculous mud hurling contests without realling knowing anything about the competence or experience of the people we're talking about. I've heard people claim that integrated students are just drones rolled off the production line and that modular students are pretty much inferior because they spent less. Both suggestions are completely ridiculous and pretty insulting. Lets all show a bit more respect.
My two cents.
V2
I've seen a number of presentations from airlines over the last few months and to be honest it has been quite disheartening. But at the end of the day, I chose to take the risk and if it doesn't work out I'll have to deal with it. You certainly won't find me posting angry posts on pprune shouting about how the industry is going down the plug hole and how no-one should ever become a pilot, yada yada yada, as so many posts seem to do. Its a personal decision and it will be affected by different factors for everyone.
Nor, by the way, do I think people have any right to slate modular OR integrated students for their choice. Both parties made the decision they thought was best at the time. The guy who has rich parents and went integrated shouldn't have to justify his choice any more than the guy who went modular should have to justify his. You simply can't say definitively that one way is better than the other. Money aside their are so many other considerations - will distance learning suit you or do you need to be in a classroom environment? Do you want to live on site or live in your own place off site?
Regardless of which way you go its all a gamble. You can slightly reduce the risk by going integrated purely because several airlines now have schemes/understandings set up with the big integrated schools and it might (subject to performing well) mean that your CV lands on the right desk at the right time. Im my opinion modular students can also reduce the risk by trying to keep their training auditable and mainly based at a single FTO, and complete it in as shorter space of time as possible. Doing your ATPL's, then waiting months and months to start your CPL, then another X many months for IR and MCC means you start to lack currency, costing you more money to reach the required standard and making your position worse with a prospective employer.
And thats the one thing that has been continually hammered in to me. These days, performance is everything. Airlines will consistently hire the guy who got a clean first time pass rate in his ATPL's with a high average and first time CPL/IR passes, over the guy who had to resit 2 or 3 exams, got a poor average and failed his/her CPL a couple of times before he/she got it. The exact line I've heard mentioned is "we want the best pilots and we make no excuse for that". So maybe if you get to the first set of ATPL's and drop a couple, you should think seriously before investing any more money.
The "its not fair" and "why should integrated students get all the goodies" argument is completely flawed. Firstly, integrated students definately do not get all the goodies. I personally know several modular students hired very recently by major carriers and similarly integrated students who are unemployed. Second, Airlines are commercial companies operating in a highly competitive market place. If, on average, they decide to go to Integrated schools to hire their pilot's, then who are we to question that? They can do whatever they like - indeed whatever they feel is best for their company and moaning and hammering on about it on here is not going to instigate the slightest bit of change. More and more airlines seem to be opting to do this and I can only assume the reason is that at the end of the course, they get a hefty file with results from every single written test and every single training flight - a complete training history. So, instead of having to dig through the thousands of CV's which appear on their desks every day they get handed it on a plate. They can still sift out those who didn't perform as well, but it takes them a tenth of the time, and it only takes 1 guy instead of 5. I haven't come across many modular schools who offer an "integrated style" course at a modular price. I know Oxford do something called waypoint now but I know very little about it. Certainly at the modular school I went to for my PPL, there we very few records kept and those they did keep were for internal use only.
Anyway, in summary having read this thread (and several others) my overriding feeling is that its a shame that so many of us who will hopefully one day work together get drawn in to these ridiculous mud hurling contests without realling knowing anything about the competence or experience of the people we're talking about. I've heard people claim that integrated students are just drones rolled off the production line and that modular students are pretty much inferior because they spent less. Both suggestions are completely ridiculous and pretty insulting. Lets all show a bit more respect.
My two cents.
V2
Last edited by veetwo; 28th Aug 2006 at 11:53.
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Mooneyboy
I am on my first season of aerial photo work with a company specialising in in high quality photos. It's pipline work, surveys for wind farms, photo documented development of factories, harbours, even a ski slope. I earn £20 per tacho hour, which I think is towards the top end in this field, and I am more than happy with that. It's probably stating the obvious but the mental arithmetic of the theoretical cost per hour has to add in what I'd have to pay to hire an aircraft and fly myself along the coast just to keep current.
Perhaps I'm a happy clapper but my first hour of paid flying made all the hard work and massive expense seem worthwhile. However lacking in glamour I can call myself a commercial pilot and I'm proud of that. Perhaps it'll go no further than this, or maybe I'll be airline bound one day, who knows. Meantime I'll try and stay positive.
I am on my first season of aerial photo work with a company specialising in in high quality photos. It's pipline work, surveys for wind farms, photo documented development of factories, harbours, even a ski slope. I earn £20 per tacho hour, which I think is towards the top end in this field, and I am more than happy with that. It's probably stating the obvious but the mental arithmetic of the theoretical cost per hour has to add in what I'd have to pay to hire an aircraft and fly myself along the coast just to keep current.
Perhaps I'm a happy clapper but my first hour of paid flying made all the hard work and massive expense seem worthwhile. However lacking in glamour I can call myself a commercial pilot and I'm proud of that. Perhaps it'll go no further than this, or maybe I'll be airline bound one day, who knows. Meantime I'll try and stay positive.
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getting a job is just a question of luck.Nothing else!!
£15 x 600hrs = £9000 before tax, Not worth getting out of bed for.
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Guys and girls,
I apologise that I appeared quite jumped up, and I think veetwo has posted a much more reasoned response than I initially considered.
I assure you that I don't wish anyone bad luck, nor believe anyone is inferior. My only motive to post is to help people to most effectively spend their money - I have a very strong opinion about that, which as all opinions are may or may not be correct.
I don't want you to misinterpret that opinion as being a slight on your choice. I do want people who are considering investing in the course to make the best possible decision for them, having considered both their abilities and the realistic possibilities of employment with each route.
I do believe that people do make decisions without considering the risks, therefore all the information they can glean from here is of utmost importance. For that reason alone, you get precisely the opposite of bull**** from me.
I presume that you don't get it...?
I apologise that I appeared quite jumped up, and I think veetwo has posted a much more reasoned response than I initially considered.
I assure you that I don't wish anyone bad luck, nor believe anyone is inferior. My only motive to post is to help people to most effectively spend their money - I have a very strong opinion about that, which as all opinions are may or may not be correct.
I don't want you to misinterpret that opinion as being a slight on your choice. I do want people who are considering investing in the course to make the best possible decision for them, having considered both their abilities and the realistic possibilities of employment with each route.
I do believe that people do make decisions without considering the risks, therefore all the information they can glean from here is of utmost importance. For that reason alone, you get precisely the opposite of bull**** from me.
considering he/she flys the new version of a now defunct British airliner
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Stick with it, all you instructors out there! I would never have got where I am today without (a) instructing and (b) having gone modular.
In my opinion, I am in the best job in the civilian world for a low-hour pilot with no commitments, light charter. OK, so it might not be ideal for some, but I get paid better than a turboprop FO and some jet FOs, I get lots of variety, some nightstops (up to 3 days stopover) but not too many, a lot of actual flying and the respect of some employers when I wish to move on, with early command.
By the way, to expand on my first comment, (a) I needed 400 hours P1 and 700 hrs TT and (b) my boss would not generally employ a graduate of an integrated course, as they don't have the required qualities. The one I worked with also had problems instructing PPLs, as he didn't really know what a PPL was.
There is no reason, and it isn't even true! Many people I know from modular courses have done extremely well. I know people from integrated backgrounds who have struggled more in similar circumstances to find a job. The airlines don't want a course, they want a licence and experience. A modular student not only graduates withmore hours but with more money to gain experience or for further courses.
In my opinion, I am in the best job in the civilian world for a low-hour pilot with no commitments, light charter. OK, so it might not be ideal for some, but I get paid better than a turboprop FO and some jet FOs, I get lots of variety, some nightstops (up to 3 days stopover) but not too many, a lot of actual flying and the respect of some employers when I wish to move on, with early command.
By the way, to expand on my first comment, (a) I needed 400 hours P1 and 700 hrs TT and (b) my boss would not generally employ a graduate of an integrated course, as they don't have the required qualities. The one I worked with also had problems instructing PPLs, as he didn't really know what a PPL was.
there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy
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However deep the BS, I will not tolerate abuse of other posters on this or any other thread. If you can't be polite to each other, go elsewhere.
For all those wannabes reading this thread in increasing desparation, I can assure you that very few posters within this thread have any qualification or experience whatsoever with which to lend credibility to their speculation. The fact is that modular students of good character, who work hard to achieve the best results possible, and who use a modicum of resourcefulness, initiative and determination in their search for a job are still every bit as likely to end up in a jet as the CTC (modular!) or OAT APP student.
Scroggs
For all those wannabes reading this thread in increasing desparation, I can assure you that very few posters within this thread have any qualification or experience whatsoever with which to lend credibility to their speculation. The fact is that modular students of good character, who work hard to achieve the best results possible, and who use a modicum of resourcefulness, initiative and determination in their search for a job are still every bit as likely to end up in a jet as the CTC (modular!) or OAT APP student.
Scroggs
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Just to add to Scroggs' comments; I know dozens of modular trained pilots who have gained airline employment in the last 12 months (and even more before then!) So people like Lucifer need to broaden their outlook a little in order to gain an informed opinion, as opposed to just an opinion.
PP
PP
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Well, what an overwhelming response, nice to know that the misery is't mine alone then....so there are people out there as daft as me........
Really what the hell are we all supposed to do Scroggs??
Really what the hell are we all supposed to do Scroggs??
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I feel so sad, i'm in tears most days....
really i am........
I really want to be an airline pilot, it'sall I have ever wanted to do...and I have sold my soul to do it...still with no glimmer of hope.........
really i am........
I really want to be an airline pilot, it'sall I have ever wanted to do...and I have sold my soul to do it...still with no glimmer of hope.........