New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT
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Originally Posted by jetlagslag
and that lower salary = lower tax bracket, thousands saved there too.
Which marketing department do you have aspirations of joining?
PP
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just been thinking, would it not ease things a bit if i were to joing the RAF cadets while at Uni and gain a PPL, i know the one in cambridge offers a PPL?? does anyone know more about this??
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What I'm saying is that having 12k un-taxed a year makes all the difference in this scheme.
circa 30k for the tax on this, plus the additional tax savings by being in a different tax bracket, rather than earn 12k a year more, and be taxed on everything prior to repaying the loan.
Do the maths PP. This is my background. I am not anything to do with scheme, I was asked by certain folk to add what i thought about the financial aspect.
If the salary is the same as the TCX cadet salary, the financial benefits far outweigh and APPFO. Do the calculations, but use all variables, not the ones that make this scheme sound crap, rather than stupid sarcastic comments about marketing.
I work in finance. I earn very very well. I must therefore be doing something right.
I am unsure about the ins and outs of the CTC scheme, although for young prospective pilots, it looks attractive. There's a bond I believe, but otherwise...
I love this thread, absolute bitterness it seems about OAT. It prompted me to do some looking into it. Well sadly, whether you like OAT/integrated, or whether you like their marketing stance... The airlines seem to love them. Fact. Dont like it? Then dont go there. It is very much you get what you pay for, and I'm not suggesting that top instruction isn't available elsewhere, merely you're paying to have OAT (with all their clever marketing to airlines) on your CV.
circa 30k for the tax on this, plus the additional tax savings by being in a different tax bracket, rather than earn 12k a year more, and be taxed on everything prior to repaying the loan.
Do the maths PP. This is my background. I am not anything to do with scheme, I was asked by certain folk to add what i thought about the financial aspect.
If the salary is the same as the TCX cadet salary, the financial benefits far outweigh and APPFO. Do the calculations, but use all variables, not the ones that make this scheme sound crap, rather than stupid sarcastic comments about marketing.
I work in finance. I earn very very well. I must therefore be doing something right.
I am unsure about the ins and outs of the CTC scheme, although for young prospective pilots, it looks attractive. There's a bond I believe, but otherwise...
I love this thread, absolute bitterness it seems about OAT. It prompted me to do some looking into it. Well sadly, whether you like OAT/integrated, or whether you like their marketing stance... The airlines seem to love them. Fact. Dont like it? Then dont go there. It is very much you get what you pay for, and I'm not suggesting that top instruction isn't available elsewhere, merely you're paying to have OAT (with all their clever marketing to airlines) on your CV.
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Originally Posted by jetlagslag
merely you're paying to have OAT (with all their clever marketing to airlines) on your CV.
As long as new guys go into these schemes with their eyes open then fine, enjoy, but make sure you enjoy for quite some time or can use it to get where you want to be on a decent salary.
PP
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I'm thinking of going modular and was gonna try ota's waypoint. anyone got any ideas if its all what its cracked up to be or if there are any better ones out there????
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PP, I'm not even eligible for this scheme so I'm not coming from a pro-OAT standpoint, but I think you are missing a fundamental plus of this scheme.
Who can fund modular or integrated training? I certainly can't and earning about 18K after tax each year I will probably never be able to. I also don't have security, in the form of property or other assets with which to take out a loan.
The TCX scheme gives chosen candidates open access to a loan, to pilot training and direct entry in to a cereer which would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. You can slate the amount of debt all you like, but what the scheme offers (with no age limit) is unheard of these days and quite simply opens doors that are otherwise firmly shut.
Add to this the fact that the loan could easily be paid off in 7 years and the offer is extremely attractive. It took me a decade to pay off my student loan and that was substantially less than the debt incurred on this sponsorship.
I don't think anyone is being deceived in to thinking this is something that it isn't. The reality is laid out clear, and from my experience last year, if you progress to stage II then you are given a thorough briefing on the financial details surrounding this.
Who can fund modular or integrated training? I certainly can't and earning about 18K after tax each year I will probably never be able to. I also don't have security, in the form of property or other assets with which to take out a loan.
The TCX scheme gives chosen candidates open access to a loan, to pilot training and direct entry in to a cereer which would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. You can slate the amount of debt all you like, but what the scheme offers (with no age limit) is unheard of these days and quite simply opens doors that are otherwise firmly shut.
Add to this the fact that the loan could easily be paid off in 7 years and the offer is extremely attractive. It took me a decade to pay off my student loan and that was substantially less than the debt incurred on this sponsorship.
I don't think anyone is being deceived in to thinking this is something that it isn't. The reality is laid out clear, and from my experience last year, if you progress to stage II then you are given a thorough briefing on the financial details surrounding this.
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If this is all just marketing hype, and you're right, I know little about the aviation industry barring a little private flying, why is it that OAT seem to have a better track record than anyone (barring CTC, for obvious reasons) of getting students into jobs?
I'm more than aware that not all OAT grads walk into an airline job, however OAT does seem to be leading the market. As I said, I am sure that equally good instruction (if not better) is available in dribs and drabs, so in this case, why dont other schools have such a record of getting their students jobs?
I dont mean to be argumentative PP, I am just now very curious what it is that helps get OAT grads into jobs. I'd be inclined to think that it was due to either tuition or the 'prestige' value of OAT on your CV. You've said otherwise, so unless OAT are lying when they produce stats about getting recent grads into jobs, I dont know what else it can be?
Of course, one must go in eyes wide open, reviewing the Ts & Cs is vital, although as I have mentioned, I cant see it being such a contract so as to screw the cadets over. TCX is a winner in this too, no doubt.
If there are no vacancies at TCX upon graduation PP, in your eperience, would you suggest that the small number of those successful in getting onto what I'm sure will be a very selective scheme would be of a suitable calibre to have as good a shout as any other low hours pilot to get a good job straight up? Barring a downturn in the market, of course.
I'm more than aware that not all OAT grads walk into an airline job, however OAT does seem to be leading the market. As I said, I am sure that equally good instruction (if not better) is available in dribs and drabs, so in this case, why dont other schools have such a record of getting their students jobs?
I dont mean to be argumentative PP, I am just now very curious what it is that helps get OAT grads into jobs. I'd be inclined to think that it was due to either tuition or the 'prestige' value of OAT on your CV. You've said otherwise, so unless OAT are lying when they produce stats about getting recent grads into jobs, I dont know what else it can be?
Of course, one must go in eyes wide open, reviewing the Ts & Cs is vital, although as I have mentioned, I cant see it being such a contract so as to screw the cadets over. TCX is a winner in this too, no doubt.
If there are no vacancies at TCX upon graduation PP, in your eperience, would you suggest that the small number of those successful in getting onto what I'm sure will be a very selective scheme would be of a suitable calibre to have as good a shout as any other low hours pilot to get a good job straight up? Barring a downturn in the market, of course.
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They don't necessarily have a hand in getting all their students jobs. Me for instance. I will have been one of their 'success stories' in days gone by, but they didn't do anything whatsoever to help me. Either that or they just don't count people who they don't keep in touch with.
As far as the airlines are concerned, yes, many have a preference for integrated pilots due to the perceived 'continuity' and standardisation of the training. These days of course some 'selection' has been done by many of the integrated training organizations before the training starts, so I guess some sort of perceived 'quality check' has also been done in the eyes of an airline. Sure also that some airlines think that the product meets a certain level and it is easier to approach OAT than sift through hundreds of CVs. Recommendations are VERY useful in this industry, but this is a huge sum of money to pay for one (if TCX don't offer a job)!
The big BUT is the point I raised earlier though and that is the state of the job market. It is better now than it has been for MANY years and if world and economic events don't take a turn for the worse, then in 2 years from now (when anyone who signs up for training now will be on the job market) there should be fewer problems getting a start. Just look at the airline requirements for future pilots;
My airline wants somewhere in the region of 100 pilots per year for the next five years. A mate at Jet2 tells me they want 100 next year. Easy and Ryan wants god knows how many hundreds (thousands?) over the coming years, BA will still have a similar requirement and that is just 5 airlines off the top of my head. My point is that this scheme may not look quite as rosy when you start on Day 1 with the airline alongside some Modular pilot who trained over the same period and who has a fraction of the debts and earns more money! OK that is theoretical at the moment, but just watch the minimum entry requirements for new pilots keep sinking lower and lower as the supply starts to slip behind the requirement. One thing that is guaranteed is that the airlines won't spend too long cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. My airline has reduced the number of hours required for command from 5000 down to 3000 and now again down to 2500 in just 18 months. They are also getting fewer 'suitable' applicants than previously for S/O and F/O positions. Interestingly, they and a number of other jet operators are starting to see a few problems with 200hr pilots and are not overly happy with the product being provided by the likes of CTC. In the last 12 months I know of half a dozen CTC pilots who have been sent back and we have had 3 tailscrapes by similar experience level pilots.
What does all this mean? Not having a go at low houred pilots, there are good and bad, just like 10,000hr pilots. The point being that the number of good quality low hour pilots has dropped due to the sheer numbers available having dropped and this bodes well for any good quality low houred pilot who I think will be in more demand in a few years time!
Undoubtably, if TCX don't employ a cadet upon qualification then they stand just as much chance as any other low houred pilot in the open market, my argument would be that it is then a free for all and the modular guy will be in the same position, with considerably less debt. I know a guy personally who was an Aer Lingus cadet at Jerez when 9/11 happened. He wasn't taken on, finished the rest of his course at his own expense to get qualified and has been trying in vain since then to get a start with anyone else. The good news is that I heard through a mutual friend that he has recently got a start....that's over 4 years later and being a cadet (in the true sense of it; not having to pay) didn't get him a job elsewhere. Remember that this industry is notoriously difficult to get into and be under no illusions; with minimal hours you are still (presently) ten-a-penny; that's the reality, and the airlines are businesses that don't go in for romanticism of having paid for a TCX course through OAT. It will be dog-eat-dog if TCX don't offer you a start.....
Equally jetlagslag I don't wish to argue, I just want to put the alternative side from an experienced view point. This is Wannabes and all too often the rose tinted spectacles are on posters who rarely do as much indepth research as you obviously have.
'Eyes open' would be the best comment for anyone considering signing for this deal. Good luck to all.
PP
As far as the airlines are concerned, yes, many have a preference for integrated pilots due to the perceived 'continuity' and standardisation of the training. These days of course some 'selection' has been done by many of the integrated training organizations before the training starts, so I guess some sort of perceived 'quality check' has also been done in the eyes of an airline. Sure also that some airlines think that the product meets a certain level and it is easier to approach OAT than sift through hundreds of CVs. Recommendations are VERY useful in this industry, but this is a huge sum of money to pay for one (if TCX don't offer a job)!
The big BUT is the point I raised earlier though and that is the state of the job market. It is better now than it has been for MANY years and if world and economic events don't take a turn for the worse, then in 2 years from now (when anyone who signs up for training now will be on the job market) there should be fewer problems getting a start. Just look at the airline requirements for future pilots;
My airline wants somewhere in the region of 100 pilots per year for the next five years. A mate at Jet2 tells me they want 100 next year. Easy and Ryan wants god knows how many hundreds (thousands?) over the coming years, BA will still have a similar requirement and that is just 5 airlines off the top of my head. My point is that this scheme may not look quite as rosy when you start on Day 1 with the airline alongside some Modular pilot who trained over the same period and who has a fraction of the debts and earns more money! OK that is theoretical at the moment, but just watch the minimum entry requirements for new pilots keep sinking lower and lower as the supply starts to slip behind the requirement. One thing that is guaranteed is that the airlines won't spend too long cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. My airline has reduced the number of hours required for command from 5000 down to 3000 and now again down to 2500 in just 18 months. They are also getting fewer 'suitable' applicants than previously for S/O and F/O positions. Interestingly, they and a number of other jet operators are starting to see a few problems with 200hr pilots and are not overly happy with the product being provided by the likes of CTC. In the last 12 months I know of half a dozen CTC pilots who have been sent back and we have had 3 tailscrapes by similar experience level pilots.
What does all this mean? Not having a go at low houred pilots, there are good and bad, just like 10,000hr pilots. The point being that the number of good quality low hour pilots has dropped due to the sheer numbers available having dropped and this bodes well for any good quality low houred pilot who I think will be in more demand in a few years time!
Undoubtably, if TCX don't employ a cadet upon qualification then they stand just as much chance as any other low houred pilot in the open market, my argument would be that it is then a free for all and the modular guy will be in the same position, with considerably less debt. I know a guy personally who was an Aer Lingus cadet at Jerez when 9/11 happened. He wasn't taken on, finished the rest of his course at his own expense to get qualified and has been trying in vain since then to get a start with anyone else. The good news is that I heard through a mutual friend that he has recently got a start....that's over 4 years later and being a cadet (in the true sense of it; not having to pay) didn't get him a job elsewhere. Remember that this industry is notoriously difficult to get into and be under no illusions; with minimal hours you are still (presently) ten-a-penny; that's the reality, and the airlines are businesses that don't go in for romanticism of having paid for a TCX course through OAT. It will be dog-eat-dog if TCX don't offer you a start.....
Equally jetlagslag I don't wish to argue, I just want to put the alternative side from an experienced view point. This is Wannabes and all too often the rose tinted spectacles are on posters who rarely do as much indepth research as you obviously have.
'Eyes open' would be the best comment for anyone considering signing for this deal. Good luck to all.
PP
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PilotPete: Couldn't agree more.
JetLagSlag: Errrrm, if you work in finance then that's quite scary. Firstly, the tax saved is around 21k by my calcs. Take into account the fact that you have a loan 10k more than other APP guys (with the extra interest) then, yes, it is an advantage, but not as big as you are making out. Which was always my point.
Secondly,
Well, I'm off to my boss to ask for a massive pay reduction! Just think of all of the tax saved! In fact, if I work for 4k per year, then I don't pay any tax at all!
I don't think so. You will find that, generally speaking, earning less is not a good way of making money.
If you were good at your job, you would have realised that any tax saved in your model has already been taken into account in this '30k' figure you have plucked out of one of OAT's dodgy calculators. You have used the same figures twice.
Thirdly,
So modular would have been a better route for these high calibre candidates, as they have spent less money AND will get snapped up by the airlines?
Bluepeely:
I was thinking of OAT Waypoint. That was untill they said you HAD to complete your ATPL's with them. That put me right off on principle. If I have decided that BGS is the better option for me, why should I have to compromise that in order to have the 'honour' of flying at Oxford?
The whole point of modular is choice. Oxford think they can take this away in order to make more $$.
The reason given is typically weak and hypocritical. Apparantly, airlines only like trainees who have learnt all of their flying at the same school. Rubbish.
I know of no one who has not been selected as a result of attending different training schools. Different schools specialise in different aspects of training. Some are groundschool only. Some are PPL only. Some are Commercial/IFR only. The fact that this is rubbish is proven by the fact that OAT don't do PPL anymore. Why? Not enough profit.
So, you have to do ALL of your ATPL at OAT for continuity. Except when you actually learn to fly for the first time. AND all of your hour building. That's over 60% of your flying.
What they actually mean is: we only do the most expensive part of training as this is the most profitable part. And were going to make you do it all with us if you want to take advantage of our 'relationship' with the airlines.
The OAT website acually made me laugh when I took the time to read it.
Rant nearly over......
I have a genuine question:
If it is possible for an employer to take £X from your salary to pay off a training loan tax free, then why don't all airlines offer this to their low hour recruits? After all, this set up costs the airline no money at all.
Discuss.
EK
JetLagSlag: Errrrm, if you work in finance then that's quite scary. Firstly, the tax saved is around 21k by my calcs. Take into account the fact that you have a loan 10k more than other APP guys (with the extra interest) then, yes, it is an advantage, but not as big as you are making out. Which was always my point.
Secondly,
and that lower salary = lower tax bracket, thousands saved there too.
I don't think so. You will find that, generally speaking, earning less is not a good way of making money.
If you were good at your job, you would have realised that any tax saved in your model has already been taken into account in this '30k' figure you have plucked out of one of OAT's dodgy calculators. You have used the same figures twice.
Thirdly,
If there are no vacancies at TCX upon graduation PP, in your eperience, would you suggest that the small number of those successful in getting onto what I'm sure will be a very selective scheme would be of a suitable calibre to have as good a shout as any other low hours pilot to get a good job straight up? Barring a downturn in the market, of course.
Bluepeely:
I was thinking of OAT Waypoint. That was untill they said you HAD to complete your ATPL's with them. That put me right off on principle. If I have decided that BGS is the better option for me, why should I have to compromise that in order to have the 'honour' of flying at Oxford?
The whole point of modular is choice. Oxford think they can take this away in order to make more $$.
The reason given is typically weak and hypocritical. Apparantly, airlines only like trainees who have learnt all of their flying at the same school. Rubbish.
I know of no one who has not been selected as a result of attending different training schools. Different schools specialise in different aspects of training. Some are groundschool only. Some are PPL only. Some are Commercial/IFR only. The fact that this is rubbish is proven by the fact that OAT don't do PPL anymore. Why? Not enough profit.
So, you have to do ALL of your ATPL at OAT for continuity. Except when you actually learn to fly for the first time. AND all of your hour building. That's over 60% of your flying.
What they actually mean is: we only do the most expensive part of training as this is the most profitable part. And were going to make you do it all with us if you want to take advantage of our 'relationship' with the airlines.
The OAT website acually made me laugh when I took the time to read it.
Rant nearly over......
I have a genuine question:
If it is possible for an employer to take £X from your salary to pay off a training loan tax free, then why don't all airlines offer this to their low hour recruits? After all, this set up costs the airline no money at all.
Discuss.
EK
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I would have thought you can't just 'set one up' - you'd probably have to go through lengthy processes with the Inland Revenue to allow for tax-free pay scheme such as this one. Wonder if they get anything out of it, or if it is simply that they waiver it?
Gotta love the British Government - I think they screw us over more than any FTO!
*places topic back on track*
Gotta love the British Government - I think they screw us over more than any FTO!
*places topic back on track*
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I'm not saying getting a job after training is gonna be a walk in the park but heck I'll be happier with my 20k or so debt. No matter what anyone says money is happiness, lack of it is nothing but pain and strain both emotionally and physically. Don't fall for this debt trap, you won't be escaping it very easily especially if as PP says the tide changes and you're either totally without a chance of an Airline job due to some kind of economic crisis or the Airline Market explands at a mighty rate and your Modular peers are doing the same job as you! One thing you can bet is that it will swing one way or the other for sure!!!
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Donandar
You are right to mention the tax man.
The only way this scheme works is by using a loophole in the legislation. It is not unpossible for the goverment to decide to shut this loophole at any time.
All it would take is for them to tweak it and suddenly the money payments stops being a reduced salary and becomes a benfit inkind and so due tax and NI contributions. Then you looking at an additional 350-400 quid a month off your salary in tax.
As has been said before I have no doudt that the training will be "Industry Standard" but it has the possibility to be one of the most expensive training course's on the market. It has no garantee's at all.
Is anyone else wondering about the the suitability to become a pilot of someone who is willing to accept so much risk on the possibility of something which might happen, which is reliant on so many factors which they have no control over. One of which is the goverment and policys, second is the global politics, third is the middle east, forth is oil price, fith is euroland enviromental politics (another bloody tax) etc etc etc.
I can assure you that if there were so many factors involved, loose promises from the engineers that the engine's might be OK. The fuel might be enough. The plane might be legal when you get to the other end. And if it all doesn't work out you will be paying 1000 pounds a month for the next 10 years or become bankrupt. And you have no say in any of the above factors .No Commercial pilot would except the trip.
If you do decide to go for this make sure you know what the bankrupts legislation is. Make sure you can fit the profile and as soon as it goes wrong file and sod the banks. With any luck a couple doing that will make them stop this terrible practise of allowing gullable teenagers into exposing themselves and thier parents to so much risk. Then we can put this ****e to bed.
You are right to mention the tax man.
The only way this scheme works is by using a loophole in the legislation. It is not unpossible for the goverment to decide to shut this loophole at any time.
All it would take is for them to tweak it and suddenly the money payments stops being a reduced salary and becomes a benfit inkind and so due tax and NI contributions. Then you looking at an additional 350-400 quid a month off your salary in tax.
As has been said before I have no doudt that the training will be "Industry Standard" but it has the possibility to be one of the most expensive training course's on the market. It has no garantee's at all.
Is anyone else wondering about the the suitability to become a pilot of someone who is willing to accept so much risk on the possibility of something which might happen, which is reliant on so many factors which they have no control over. One of which is the goverment and policys, second is the global politics, third is the middle east, forth is oil price, fith is euroland enviromental politics (another bloody tax) etc etc etc.
I can assure you that if there were so many factors involved, loose promises from the engineers that the engine's might be OK. The fuel might be enough. The plane might be legal when you get to the other end. And if it all doesn't work out you will be paying 1000 pounds a month for the next 10 years or become bankrupt. And you have no say in any of the above factors .No Commercial pilot would except the trip.
If you do decide to go for this make sure you know what the bankrupts legislation is. Make sure you can fit the profile and as soon as it goes wrong file and sod the banks. With any luck a couple doing that will make them stop this terrible practise of allowing gullable teenagers into exposing themselves and thier parents to so much risk. Then we can put this ****e to bed.
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EK
if the 12k a yr was added to gross salary and taxed, the tax savings - tax bracket and all is pushing 30k. each monthly tax saving is worth upwards of £350ish. That makes over 29k. Add the NI... Way over 30k.
Ok, What would you rather, earn say 32k gross, or earn 32k, of which 20k is taxable? That is essentially what it is.
The TCX scheme allows a 60k loan. Its for the candidates to select it. If one has no loan at all, the same figures apply. It would be illegal for it to be done any other way, as the loan excludes TCX, I know.
All you are doing is turning this into an integrated vs modular scheme again.
PP wrote very well for his argument, and in all, that has turned out to be an integrated vs modular point too.
This does not belong in this thread. Its chalk and cheese as we all know.
TCX vs integrated, however? TCX is financially more beneficial. Free TR also. Oh, and no bond mean you can leave and become a 'normal' post integrated FO, should you feel the need.
Very amusing argument about earning less to earn more, but unless you are utterly stupid, you would know exactly what I was alluding to.
I have no interest in this scheme, but its for those considering an INTEGRATED training course, for whatever reason, one hopes they will have made a concious decision that integrated is for them. So what mad jock is saying is that integrated should be banned... As the extra 10k loan is there due to increased job probability. That much is fairly reasonable. Neither HSBC, OAT or TCX will make you take out the full 60, so to repeatedly use the 'extra 10k increased debt' argument is completely unarguable. If you can afford the normal APPFO with a 50k loan, you'd be amonsgt the most unwise to take out the full 60.
Regarding the very good question 'why dont all airlines use this idea for their low hrs pilots?' or words to that effect, It is a lengthy process, and one which will be judged individually by the inland revenue. It would have to be the result of a scheme similar to this, basically. Not being in the aviation industry, I would hazard a guess that the reason all airlines don't do this is because they won't wish to commit to a gang of newbies. Having cleared by the inland revenue, the govt could do bugger all to those on the scheme. They could, however stop it happening again. This would probably be the end of CTC though, as from what ive seen, without looking deep into CTC, it appears very similar, however the debt becomes the airlines rather than the cadets. it will however be paid from a wad of 'tax friendly' cash too!
if the 12k a yr was added to gross salary and taxed, the tax savings - tax bracket and all is pushing 30k. each monthly tax saving is worth upwards of £350ish. That makes over 29k. Add the NI... Way over 30k.
Ok, What would you rather, earn say 32k gross, or earn 32k, of which 20k is taxable? That is essentially what it is.
The TCX scheme allows a 60k loan. Its for the candidates to select it. If one has no loan at all, the same figures apply. It would be illegal for it to be done any other way, as the loan excludes TCX, I know.
All you are doing is turning this into an integrated vs modular scheme again.
PP wrote very well for his argument, and in all, that has turned out to be an integrated vs modular point too.
This does not belong in this thread. Its chalk and cheese as we all know.
TCX vs integrated, however? TCX is financially more beneficial. Free TR also. Oh, and no bond mean you can leave and become a 'normal' post integrated FO, should you feel the need.
Very amusing argument about earning less to earn more, but unless you are utterly stupid, you would know exactly what I was alluding to.
I have no interest in this scheme, but its for those considering an INTEGRATED training course, for whatever reason, one hopes they will have made a concious decision that integrated is for them. So what mad jock is saying is that integrated should be banned... As the extra 10k loan is there due to increased job probability. That much is fairly reasonable. Neither HSBC, OAT or TCX will make you take out the full 60, so to repeatedly use the 'extra 10k increased debt' argument is completely unarguable. If you can afford the normal APPFO with a 50k loan, you'd be amonsgt the most unwise to take out the full 60.
Regarding the very good question 'why dont all airlines use this idea for their low hrs pilots?' or words to that effect, It is a lengthy process, and one which will be judged individually by the inland revenue. It would have to be the result of a scheme similar to this, basically. Not being in the aviation industry, I would hazard a guess that the reason all airlines don't do this is because they won't wish to commit to a gang of newbies. Having cleared by the inland revenue, the govt could do bugger all to those on the scheme. They could, however stop it happening again. This would probably be the end of CTC though, as from what ive seen, without looking deep into CTC, it appears very similar, however the debt becomes the airlines rather than the cadets. it will however be paid from a wad of 'tax friendly' cash too!
Last edited by jetlagslag; 28th Jun 2006 at 17:15.
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apologies if im wrong, as i said i know little about CTC, but it was my understanding that the airline take the debt from you upon recruitment, therefore the cadet is bonded?
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with CTC the debt is all yours... however the airline do make monthly payments to you of £1000 for you to pay back the loan. That's assuming you get a job of course... and you are bonded for 7 years... if you leave then you take the debt with you.
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Femalewannabe,
thanks for clarifying that. Is the £1000 a month part of gross salary? or is it tax free as per TCX?
I dont understand the point of the bond if the debt remains with the cadet..
thanks for clarifying that. Is the £1000 a month part of gross salary? or is it tax free as per TCX?
I dont understand the point of the bond if the debt remains with the cadet..
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Its a year or so since I've checked the site, but from what I remember the airline makes payments to you to cover the bond, no mention of tax so I would assume that the after tax payment is enough to cover the loan....
http://www.ctcaviation.co.uk/wings/040204.html#finance
"As a cadet pilot, during employment the airline will repay your bond in repayments that equate to those that you will be required to make to your bank."
http://www.ctcaviation.co.uk/wings/040204.html#finance
"As a cadet pilot, during employment the airline will repay your bond in repayments that equate to those that you will be required to make to your bank."
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jet
It is indeed tax free as per TCX. Some of CTC's partner airlines differ in the way they handle the loan repayment. The new OAT scheme from what I have seen is very similar to the standard CTC arrangement. To be honest I'm unsure if the term 'bond' is relevant to the CTC scheme, as the cadet takes a loan from HSBC and it remains the reponsibility of the cadet to repay the loan regardless of what happens from that point on. CTC offers some form of financial safety net in the case of failure but the exact details of it are somewhat murky!
It is indeed tax free as per TCX. Some of CTC's partner airlines differ in the way they handle the loan repayment. The new OAT scheme from what I have seen is very similar to the standard CTC arrangement. To be honest I'm unsure if the term 'bond' is relevant to the CTC scheme, as the cadet takes a loan from HSBC and it remains the reponsibility of the cadet to repay the loan regardless of what happens from that point on. CTC offers some form of financial safety net in the case of failure but the exact details of it are somewhat murky!
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I am not saying Intergrated should be banned. All methods of legal training have there place as every person has there own method of learning. And if parents can afford to fund there spawn good on them. If enterprising young men and women sell there bodies in the sex industry and earn 100k for the training all power to them. Its thier money they can spend it on what they like. But I would imagine that after a year or 2 of being "shagged" they will have a very switched on sense of value of every pound spent.
Its like most wannabies which I count myself as a member of who earned their money before doing the training. It's completely a different kettle of fish spending someones else's money before earning it, to working like a bastard to reach your goal. In the days of raping companys in the IT contracting game I would have had to work an extra 100 days to make up for the difference in price. More like 150 days if I was working in the Uk under our tax rules. You know the worth of EVERY pound spent even if you are earning them at 3 am waiting for the robo tape drive to restore the sodding micro****e server pressing the the OK button ever 30mins but hey it was 25 quid for every mouse click. And of course the finance training in about all of the EU's tax regulations which those great chaps in Jersey are worth every pound spent ( which in my case was 5% of income)
The selling of a dream with half promises, market spin and a huge debt which if you were applying to do anything other than the course suggested would be smiled at only, is an issue to me. This is all to people who are in principle just very nice everyday people who do there bit, work hard, try and do there best for thier kids and have never been exposed to the harsh back stabbing world of flying.
You sign on the line with all trust, these days you don't meet the poor sods who lost 30-40k on that Bournmouth lot. Which is maybe why that us old sods are so vocal against any form of pre-payment and debt. I had the unfortunate experence of being at the exams in Gatwick when 15 people got told by the CAA that there training provider had just folded, for 1 poor bastard it was the second time it had happend to him. BTW the guys in FCL were brillant that day all pilots got dragged in and talked to about what happens next etc.
The views of quite a few on here are from the days in 2000-2002 when there was alot of crap going on. We have lived with and trained under the conversion to JAR the folding of 2 companys which stung a hell of alot of people. We work with and see alot of new recruit pilots ,we know what happens with people moving on, we share hotels with other company's pilots. We hear the bitching and the moans (which to be honest seem to be industry wide and not one company is better than the other). You speak to FO's who are on 35-40k a year on a jet job. But they are re-paying sometimes 50% of their pay in loan repayments after tax. We still speak to TP fo's who left for Jet jobs who want to come back but can't because they are trapped. Yes yes i know its plat stripes not silver but your still 15+ years to command, your pension is a pile of ****e. You have to live in the south, there is a bit of a debate if the FO is second in command or the number 1. Your getting a piss poor salary for where your living. But hey if your happy go for it.
I am far better off with no loans and no repayments flying in scotland as a FO on a TP on 27k (plus flight pay) a year for a regional operator (I started on 20k 2.5 years ago) I haven't payed for a type yet, modular trained and its bloody good fun.
My total so far is 35k spent on training including FI rating and topups on FI pay started Sept 2000 with a PPL with good old AT in FL. And now 2.7K hours 1.6k of them turbine. You can take or leave my advice I really don't care. But I won't stay mum with utter explotation of innocent punters by the training establishments. The bloody scary thing is that they have manage to convert there punters to spreading the same ****e as thier marketing deptments.
PS i know my spelling and grammar is pish, I am a dixie mechanical engineer who uses more of his degree everyday more than most that graduated with me.
Its like most wannabies which I count myself as a member of who earned their money before doing the training. It's completely a different kettle of fish spending someones else's money before earning it, to working like a bastard to reach your goal. In the days of raping companys in the IT contracting game I would have had to work an extra 100 days to make up for the difference in price. More like 150 days if I was working in the Uk under our tax rules. You know the worth of EVERY pound spent even if you are earning them at 3 am waiting for the robo tape drive to restore the sodding micro****e server pressing the the OK button ever 30mins but hey it was 25 quid for every mouse click. And of course the finance training in about all of the EU's tax regulations which those great chaps in Jersey are worth every pound spent ( which in my case was 5% of income)
The selling of a dream with half promises, market spin and a huge debt which if you were applying to do anything other than the course suggested would be smiled at only, is an issue to me. This is all to people who are in principle just very nice everyday people who do there bit, work hard, try and do there best for thier kids and have never been exposed to the harsh back stabbing world of flying.
You sign on the line with all trust, these days you don't meet the poor sods who lost 30-40k on that Bournmouth lot. Which is maybe why that us old sods are so vocal against any form of pre-payment and debt. I had the unfortunate experence of being at the exams in Gatwick when 15 people got told by the CAA that there training provider had just folded, for 1 poor bastard it was the second time it had happend to him. BTW the guys in FCL were brillant that day all pilots got dragged in and talked to about what happens next etc.
The views of quite a few on here are from the days in 2000-2002 when there was alot of crap going on. We have lived with and trained under the conversion to JAR the folding of 2 companys which stung a hell of alot of people. We work with and see alot of new recruit pilots ,we know what happens with people moving on, we share hotels with other company's pilots. We hear the bitching and the moans (which to be honest seem to be industry wide and not one company is better than the other). You speak to FO's who are on 35-40k a year on a jet job. But they are re-paying sometimes 50% of their pay in loan repayments after tax. We still speak to TP fo's who left for Jet jobs who want to come back but can't because they are trapped. Yes yes i know its plat stripes not silver but your still 15+ years to command, your pension is a pile of ****e. You have to live in the south, there is a bit of a debate if the FO is second in command or the number 1. Your getting a piss poor salary for where your living. But hey if your happy go for it.
I am far better off with no loans and no repayments flying in scotland as a FO on a TP on 27k (plus flight pay) a year for a regional operator (I started on 20k 2.5 years ago) I haven't payed for a type yet, modular trained and its bloody good fun.
My total so far is 35k spent on training including FI rating and topups on FI pay started Sept 2000 with a PPL with good old AT in FL. And now 2.7K hours 1.6k of them turbine. You can take or leave my advice I really don't care. But I won't stay mum with utter explotation of innocent punters by the training establishments. The bloody scary thing is that they have manage to convert there punters to spreading the same ****e as thier marketing deptments.
PS i know my spelling and grammar is pish, I am a dixie mechanical engineer who uses more of his degree everyday more than most that graduated with me.
Last edited by mad_jock; 28th Jun 2006 at 20:37.