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Oxford to Easy
With regards to Oxford students going to Easy, these are students that have gone via the Gecat scheme (this relationship between Oxford and Gecat has been discussed on another thread).
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Good news that the oxford guys are getting jobs at easy. CTC are unable to meet the demand at the moment - easy have taken on contract F/Os to cover the deficit over the summer. I didn't realise Oxford had a link with GECAT!
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Originally Posted by scroggs
OSOP I think you'll find that the requirements on the website are for direct-entry FOs.
If Easy are going to lower the bar to accept OAT students then whats the point of having a bar. All OAT do is say... " J. Bloggs passed our course!." How is that different to anyone else with an FATPL, they train for the same thing. I would be suprised if all the people OAT recommend have passed absolutely all their tests and exams first time with high marks so whats the benefit over someone who has ? Everyone does the same qualification.
Do remember, that to qualifiy as a direct entry type rated pilot you need 500 hours on type. Otherwise its 500 multi crew to apply through Easy jet or less than that to apply through the CTC course. A direct entry pilot is really a bit misleading as you still have to do the SSTR and have the £23K bond!
Maybe Easy just cant be bothered finding their own good and more experienced candidates. I cant see the commercial benefit for them.
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Remember, the ideal new pilot for any airline is a 21 year old who comes with 100,000 accident-free flying hours on the exact type they fly, takes no salary, and indemnifies the company against any and all risks. As that animal doesn't exist, EZ (and any large company) will seek to eliminate as much risk as it feels it can, while balancing the needs of the company for fresh blood.
Ez's pilots sourced through the CTC schemes have been trained to their specifications. They are concerned, presumably, to get people who are to a similar standard when they recruit from elsewhere. To take newly-qualified fATPLs from just anywhere makes it difficult (read: time-consuming) for EZ to research an applicant's background and increases the perceived financial risk to EZ. If they contract with OAT (or whoever) to provide a number of fATPL graduates, you can bet EZ will be sharing that risk with the school concerned. Specifying DE F/Os with 500 multi-crew hours is another way of mitigating that risk.
EZ (or Ryanair, or BA or whoever) are not in the business of new-pilot philanthropy! These are large companies with huge buying power - and that includes buying people. They will set the bar as high as they think they can get away with. The corollary is that successful applicants can hopefully enjoy a worthwhile career with these companies.
Scroggs
Ez's pilots sourced through the CTC schemes have been trained to their specifications. They are concerned, presumably, to get people who are to a similar standard when they recruit from elsewhere. To take newly-qualified fATPLs from just anywhere makes it difficult (read: time-consuming) for EZ to research an applicant's background and increases the perceived financial risk to EZ. If they contract with OAT (or whoever) to provide a number of fATPL graduates, you can bet EZ will be sharing that risk with the school concerned. Specifying DE F/Os with 500 multi-crew hours is another way of mitigating that risk.
EZ (or Ryanair, or BA or whoever) are not in the business of new-pilot philanthropy! These are large companies with huge buying power - and that includes buying people. They will set the bar as high as they think they can get away with. The corollary is that successful applicants can hopefully enjoy a worthwhile career with these companies.
Scroggs
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I'm one of 3 modular guys from OAT through GECAT just starting line training with easyJet, we're all on the 737. According to OAT website, EZY has taken 17 graduates from OAT, both through CTC and GECAT.
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Personally I don't think they would. But that's only my opinion. I have an extremely good contact at EZY recruitment, and she said that 500 hour multi crew was an absolute absolute absolute, can't get around it for love, drugs, sex, rock 'n' roll, and money minimum for anyone not coming via CTC (or GECAT, it would appear).
FWIW I know of a couple of guys who have gone straight through CTC, not done the AQC course (just quick sim assessment) and been sucked up by EZY straight onto A320/73 courses.
Flippin' sad day if EZY are taking people direct from Oxford, bypassing CTC. That would really, really, really make my blood boil to find that out- question is, I can't see why a 250h Oxford "graduate"* is better than a 250h Airways Flight Training/BCFT/Stapleford/Ravenair/Aeros etc ex student.
WX Man (Introducer of cats amongst pigeons since 1997.)
*"graduate" in quotes because graduates come from university, not flying schools.
FWIW I know of a couple of guys who have gone straight through CTC, not done the AQC course (just quick sim assessment) and been sucked up by EZY straight onto A320/73 courses.
Flippin' sad day if EZY are taking people direct from Oxford, bypassing CTC. That would really, really, really make my blood boil to find that out- question is, I can't see why a 250h Oxford "graduate"* is better than a 250h Airways Flight Training/BCFT/Stapleford/Ravenair/Aeros etc ex student.
WX Man (Introducer of cats amongst pigeons since 1997.)
*"graduate" in quotes because graduates come from university, not flying schools.
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Originally Posted by WX Man
I can't see why a 250h Oxford "graduate"* is better than a 250h Airways Flight Training/BCFT/Stapleford/Ravenair/Aeros etc ex student.
Is it just me or can I sense a bubble about to burst big time, some where soon!
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Do I smell double standards in UK aviation???
Oh well life aint fair I guess
Flippin' sad day if EZY are taking people direct from Oxford, bypassing CTC. That would really, really, really make my blood boil to find that out- question is, I can't see why a 250h Oxford "graduate"* is better than a 250h Airways Flight Training/BCFT/Stapleford/Ravenair/Aeros etc ex student.
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future captain,
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
future captain,
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
future captain,
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
You said OAT "A tough and intense course". Its no tougher or more intense than a modular course or any other integrated course! They train you for EXACTLY the same license. That is the point we are trying to make!
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its a tough and intense course
OAT integrated students have approx 150hrs flying and 80 hrs simulator. They produce nothing different to any other UK flight school. A blue book at the end of the course.
It would appear that going the Oxford route also includes recommendation to airlines. I have heard a lot of arrogance from OAT students who feel they almost deserve jobs at the end of their courses. Even those spoilt for choice as to whether to go Boeing or Airbus !
Some feel that the UK major airlines are the only people worth getting jobs with. This, IMHO is a great shame, because there a lot of flying roles in aviation apart from flying big airliners.
In my current role, all the new F/Os are modular, early 30s, below 500hrs total time, flying shiny jets at FL410. There are jobs, keep flying and network hard.
Last edited by TurboJ; 28th May 2006 at 22:01.
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The only way to get into easy as a low hour FO was via CTC. You either do the wings scheme (which is indeed a modular course) or what used to be called the ATP scheme (where you have a fATPL and then apply to CTC).
I heard a few weeks back, that some people from the SSTR scheme at Gecat were taken on. I am fairly sure the fact that some of these students went to OAT has very little to do with it. Understand that easy has been using CTC's ATP scheme for many years and these people may have trained anywhere.
Please don't fall for the marketing hype. There's nothing clever about spending 20k on top of OATS fees for a job
MrHorgy: Apologies! Edited!
I heard a few weeks back, that some people from the SSTR scheme at Gecat were taken on. I am fairly sure the fact that some of these students went to OAT has very little to do with it. Understand that easy has been using CTC's ATP scheme for many years and these people may have trained anywhere.
Please don't fall for the marketing hype. There's nothing clever about spending 20k on top of OATS fees for a job
MrHorgy: Apologies! Edited!
Last edited by JT8; 28th May 2006 at 23:35.
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Originally Posted by JT8
Due to the extreme shortage of FO's at easy we are now taking some people from the SSTR scheme at Gecat.
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Good on ya if you made off the OAT course. Or CTC for that matter. It's funny reading how some guys over there complain about not getting jet jobs. Try being here in NZ where 1200hrs will get you on a turboprop and you won't see the inside of a jet before you have 2000hrs plus!
I guess you can at least say if you get on a jet here your pilot isn't inexperienced.
You guys don't know how lucky you are!
I guess you can at least say if you get on a jet here your pilot isn't inexperienced.
You guys don't know how lucky you are!
I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating.
There is essentially no difference in the training you get at a large FTO such as Jerez and OATS compared to a small FTO such as Bristol or PAT. The lessons are the same, the exams identical, the flight tests identical. I know, I've been a flying instructor of both Modular and Integrated at both small and large FTOs.
In many operational and practical ways I believe you get a better product at a smaller FTO. At all the large schools you will feel like you are in a sausage machine, that management are remote, that the sponsored students get preferential treatment, that 'your' aircraft gets nicked too often and that 'your' instructor is not 'yours' as often as you'd like.
So why go to a more expensive large FTO? One reason.
When the airline hiring market it tight things get frantic in the recruitment departments of airlines. It is happening RIGHT NOW. At this point they need two dozen cadets on a type rating course starting yesterday. They don't have the time nor inclination to place ads in Flight, read applications, interview, aptitude test then make offers.
What they do instead is phone the Head Of Training at places like OATS, Jerez, Cabair, CTC and say "we need you best 12 cadets who could be on a type rating course this afternoon". That is why large FTO's have Heads Of Training - they don't actually do much other than act as a link between school and airline. Nice work if you can get it.
At this time the extra cost of being at such a large FTO pays off. You might be one of the names put forward by the HoT. Bingo - bypass years of job hunting and working your way up the ladder and procede directly to the RHS of a big comfy jet.
So essentially it's a bit of a gamble going to a large prestigous expensive FTO. Your course may have graduated 3 months too early for that frantic phone call from the airline recruiters. Or not be ready for another 6 weeks. Or maybe they don't put your name forward because you fluffed a flight test or got drunk at the Christmas party and threw up on the CFI's wifes shoes.
So don't think school X is 'better' than school 'Y' and never ever think there is a direct realtionship between cost and quality. There is not.
Also do not also be lulled into thinking that nearly every person who pays the money and goes to a large FTO will get a jet job. There are hundreds every year going through them and here we are talking about EZY taking 24.
As an aside. The market is booming and now is a brilliant time to be getting qualified. Jobs are never easy to find but it is easier now than for a long time. The market is also now much bigger than during the last boom in 2000. Both Ryanair and EZY now stand with a fleet of over a 100 aircraft each with delivery rates in double digits every year for the next few years. Lots of people are moving around different employers as they are nearly all expanding or planning to. India and China are coming on stream and will prove a powerful magnet for experienced people to leave these shores and go contracting. Both Boeing and Airbus have full order books for the next 6 years and both bizjets and helicopters are exploding with work.
Good luck,
WWW
There is essentially no difference in the training you get at a large FTO such as Jerez and OATS compared to a small FTO such as Bristol or PAT. The lessons are the same, the exams identical, the flight tests identical. I know, I've been a flying instructor of both Modular and Integrated at both small and large FTOs.
In many operational and practical ways I believe you get a better product at a smaller FTO. At all the large schools you will feel like you are in a sausage machine, that management are remote, that the sponsored students get preferential treatment, that 'your' aircraft gets nicked too often and that 'your' instructor is not 'yours' as often as you'd like.
So why go to a more expensive large FTO? One reason.
When the airline hiring market it tight things get frantic in the recruitment departments of airlines. It is happening RIGHT NOW. At this point they need two dozen cadets on a type rating course starting yesterday. They don't have the time nor inclination to place ads in Flight, read applications, interview, aptitude test then make offers.
What they do instead is phone the Head Of Training at places like OATS, Jerez, Cabair, CTC and say "we need you best 12 cadets who could be on a type rating course this afternoon". That is why large FTO's have Heads Of Training - they don't actually do much other than act as a link between school and airline. Nice work if you can get it.
At this time the extra cost of being at such a large FTO pays off. You might be one of the names put forward by the HoT. Bingo - bypass years of job hunting and working your way up the ladder and procede directly to the RHS of a big comfy jet.
So essentially it's a bit of a gamble going to a large prestigous expensive FTO. Your course may have graduated 3 months too early for that frantic phone call from the airline recruiters. Or not be ready for another 6 weeks. Or maybe they don't put your name forward because you fluffed a flight test or got drunk at the Christmas party and threw up on the CFI's wifes shoes.
So don't think school X is 'better' than school 'Y' and never ever think there is a direct realtionship between cost and quality. There is not.
Also do not also be lulled into thinking that nearly every person who pays the money and goes to a large FTO will get a jet job. There are hundreds every year going through them and here we are talking about EZY taking 24.
As an aside. The market is booming and now is a brilliant time to be getting qualified. Jobs are never easy to find but it is easier now than for a long time. The market is also now much bigger than during the last boom in 2000. Both Ryanair and EZY now stand with a fleet of over a 100 aircraft each with delivery rates in double digits every year for the next few years. Lots of people are moving around different employers as they are nearly all expanding or planning to. India and China are coming on stream and will prove a powerful magnet for experienced people to leave these shores and go contracting. Both Boeing and Airbus have full order books for the next 6 years and both bizjets and helicopters are exploding with work.
Good luck,
WWW
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Maybe this was a lucky break for those Modular Waypoint students that felt they were being betrayed when it came to employment support? If so, then I think this is a very temporary measure due to EZY's current shortage. Why EZY went for the GECAT/OATs option is due to several reasons, that can be summed up by asking:
"Who's sleeping with who?"
"Who's sleeping with who?"