FO's paying to fly?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO's paying to fly?
I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?
Last edited by cfimei; 26th Dec 2005 at 14:02.
Educated Hillbilly
The Far East is currently showing signs of a pilot shortage, especially in China and India, so paying for line training isn't something I have seen advetised in the Far East, but it is something that is happening in Europe. I believe Astraeus, Wizz Air associated with Bond / Storm aviation run self sponsored type rating schemes in which you can buy 100 hours of line training on top the type rating. However US based Eagle Jet also run similar schemes; whereby you pay for line experience on top the type rating. It is possible (though this is an assumption) that some of these companies may be placing people on these schemes with Far Eastern based airlines.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this is true, I can't believe it !
Only in aviation can you find professionals paying an employer to do a job !
Is it just me or is this all wrong ?
And who are the people paying it ? The same who whinge about poor conditions ? I hope not.
Only in aviation can you find professionals paying an employer to do a job !
Is it just me or is this all wrong ?
And who are the people paying it ? The same who whinge about poor conditions ? I hope not.
Last edited by FFP; 9th Dec 2005 at 12:26.
Educated Hillbilly
Take a look in the back of Flight International and you will see two adverts advertising line training (Bond and Eagle Jet).
It would seem there are a reasonable number of applicants for these schemes.
It would seem there are a reasonable number of applicants for these schemes.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Snake,
Bond Aviation Solutions, in cooperation with Astraeus, offers the B737 type-rating and line training.
MCC+JOC at £4000 + VAT
B737TR at £16,250 + VAT
100hrs line training at £9000 + VAT
The training is provided in LGW (groundschool) and Cranebank for the simulator.
Line training is based in LGW, MAN, Exeter or Birmingham.
Send me a PM for further infos.
Regards
Bond Aviation Solutions, in cooperation with Astraeus, offers the B737 type-rating and line training.
MCC+JOC at £4000 + VAT
B737TR at £16,250 + VAT
100hrs line training at £9000 + VAT
The training is provided in LGW (groundschool) and Cranebank for the simulator.
Line training is based in LGW, MAN, Exeter or Birmingham.
Send me a PM for further infos.
Regards
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The training organisations offering line training for a fee are answering a demand. That demand comes from those wannabes who feel that such training may give them an advantage when it comes to seeking employment.
FFP, be careful with your insinuation that the training organisations concerned are airlines receiving free or paying labour; the provision of such training is certainly done for a profit (it also provides a means of keeping a training department available and occupied), but it is not done as a substitute for recruiting legitimate FOs. There have certainly been schemes which were more than a little dodgy, thoug I'm not aware of any in UK. Bond/Astraeus is not one of them; several Pprune Wannabes have benefitted from their expertise through the Pprune/Astraeus assisted training scheme. We do not associate ourselves with disreputable organisations!
Scroggs
FFP, be careful with your insinuation that the training organisations concerned are airlines receiving free or paying labour; the provision of such training is certainly done for a profit (it also provides a means of keeping a training department available and occupied), but it is not done as a substitute for recruiting legitimate FOs. There have certainly been schemes which were more than a little dodgy, thoug I'm not aware of any in UK. Bond/Astraeus is not one of them; several Pprune Wannabes have benefitted from their expertise through the Pprune/Astraeus assisted training scheme. We do not associate ourselves with disreputable organisations!
Scroggs
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough.
But I still don't understand the concept of 100 hrs "line training". So this is done without fare paying passengers ?
If not, then the airline involved must be benefitting from not "employing" a FO.
I must put my hands up and confess to not knowing the ins and outs of it all and if I have got it wrong, then I apologise.
The concept of gaining time on a jet to make you more appealing to an employer is fair enough, but do employers count 100 hrs as experience enough ? I thought 500 hrs was the benchmark (and surely no one pays for that amount of time ?)
But I still don't understand the concept of 100 hrs "line training". So this is done without fare paying passengers ?
If not, then the airline involved must be benefitting from not "employing" a FO.
I must put my hands up and confess to not knowing the ins and outs of it all and if I have got it wrong, then I apologise.
The concept of gaining time on a jet to make you more appealing to an employer is fair enough, but do employers count 100 hrs as experience enough ? I thought 500 hrs was the benchmark (and surely no one pays for that amount of time ?)
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The definition of line training is that it is done on line - with passengers and/or freight on board. Can you imagine how much it would cost to provide line training on empty aircraft? It would make the costs of an Oxford ATPL pale in comparison! Think in terms of £5,000 - £10,000 per flying hour...
100 hours (about 40 sectors) is enough to learn what you need to know to be moderately competent - and more than enough for any training organisation to judge whether or not you should continue. Any more than that and I think those who claim this is cheap labour would have a point! 500 hours, even if it were morally acceptable, would be prohibitive in cost for the student. In any case, it would be time and money wasted; any decent airline will wish to give new employees training in their own SOPs and ways of doing things, which will be done in their own line training programme - albeit possibly a truncated one for those who have done an SSTR.
Whether you like it or not, SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training. My concern is that students get value for money in that training, and that the training itself is valued by the industry. There are doubts on both those issues with some schemes, but that is no reason to rubbish them all.
Scroggs
100 hours (about 40 sectors) is enough to learn what you need to know to be moderately competent - and more than enough for any training organisation to judge whether or not you should continue. Any more than that and I think those who claim this is cheap labour would have a point! 500 hours, even if it were morally acceptable, would be prohibitive in cost for the student. In any case, it would be time and money wasted; any decent airline will wish to give new employees training in their own SOPs and ways of doing things, which will be done in their own line training programme - albeit possibly a truncated one for those who have done an SSTR.
Whether you like it or not, SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training. My concern is that students get value for money in that training, and that the training itself is valued by the industry. There are doubts on both those issues with some schemes, but that is no reason to rubbish them all.
Scroggs
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alba sor
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training.
Have to disagree with you 100%. Some things you write are interesting, but you too have been sucked into believing that the 'pay for type ratings' is the only way forward for the industry, it is not. It exists because young wananbes have created the demand, it does not make it right, and it certainly does not justify it like you suggest.
This industry is f*****d... so say quite a few of us who have been around for a while. Youngsters with too much money, no idea about what the 'profession' is or was, and PPRuNe sliding towards making this outrage accetable. Its time for PPRuNe to stand up against it, but it will not due certain people involved supporting it due personal interest.
There are 2 groups at fault, those who pay, and those who collect and grin all the way to the bank... w***kers.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hallo guys.
This is not the first time we see this discussion going on here on pprune, but it certainly doesn’t make it less interesting…
I will like to come with my point of view, since I am one of the “wannabes” who has bought a B737 type rating….
And first of all I will like to say that, I do agree with you. It is wrong, that you pay for your own rating! But why did I do it???
Yes simply because it is almost impossible to find a job in the GA business now a days - as a low timer! Okay there is still sightseeing flying etc. but the truth is that, these jobs will only last for a few months and you won’t accumulate more than maybe 50 hours on a season – So now you have 250 hours total, and then what? Yes you could wait another 8 moths, until the season starts again… And maybe after a few years you would have 400-500 VFR hours on a SEP… Still not enough, to get anywhere, as it looks now and has been looking for the past few years.
And trust me on this, because I know both former sightseeing pilots, experienced instructors who have bought a rating, simple because the good old career path isn’t present no more. And all are very skilled pilots, with great personalities.
I recall some of my former flight instructors telling us how they became airline pilots. And yes, they did some sightseeing flights and maybe some time on a small turboprop and was then hired by an airline. And to be honest, I really believe this would be a great way to start a pilot career, but again it is not possible, and why not. Yes okay you can still get the sightseeing job, but getting a job on a small turboprop requires you just as many hours as the big airlines requires, somewhere between 500 and 3000, with some experience on multi engine aircrafts… And how do you get that??
And if any of you experienced pilots out there, who doesn’t believe what I am saying then take yourself some time to look around in the business, and should find some jobs where a lowtimer with 200-300 hours total would qualify then please post here on Pprune…
Okay I believe I have made my point here… So back to the SSTR. Ask you self this question, and assume that you have just finished your training, and the job situation is as I just wrote. “Would you just sit and wait for 1,2,3 or who knows how many years before you get a chance of being employed without the rating?” Yes somebody does find jobs without having to pay for anything, but they do belong to the minority, and as a matter of fact there are more and more low timers giving up there dream because they can’t find a job, and they can’t afford a type rating, and this is not something I make up. And then they have lost not only a dream, but also a lot of money…
So continue with the question: “So now you hear that there is a very good chance of being employed on a large jet, if you pay for you own rating, hence you get a very good job and you get a chance to pay you loan back…” So what do you do??? If there are any of you experienced guys out there, knowing what to do, then please tell us!!!!
Why do we have to pay for our own rating, well because the airlines have decided to, NOT the low timers!! But can you blame the airlines – No not really, they are going through rough times, and if they have a chance of saving money they will do it. That’s called business!
Who is to blame then??? In my opinion it is the experienced pilots, you are the one sitting in FL330 smiling, and most of you don’t give a dame about your future colleagues. You should be the first to say, “ We don’t want our new colleagues to pay for there own ratings, stop hiring low timers with ratings, and select the ones who are skilled and who has the right personality for the company – And then offer them a job with a bond”
The experienced pilots are the only ones who can help us low timers, no one else! Some companies do just that, like for example Thomsonfly… And apparently low time pilots who is giving a chance are doing just fine onboard a big jet, or a small turboprop for that matter!!!
So stop blaming low timers, because we don’t have a choice. We are just doing whatever we can, in order to get a job! And if we have to pay for both the type rating and the line training we do it, not because we want to, but because that is our only option! Most of us have increased our loans in order to pay for this, so it is definitely not something we enjoy!!!
And what have happened now? Yes now a B737 rating is starting to become a part of the initial training and because of that, TRTOs are popping up everywhere, advertising for B737/A320 ratings. – Not because an airline requires it, but because that’s a way of earning money… So now there are so many low time pilots with a B737/A320 rating, that the rating simply isn’t enough. Because now the companies see an opportunity to get line trained pilots, instead of just selecting the skilled ones with the right personality… And what can the low time pilot do about it??? Yes, we can pay for the line training, and hope that this will help us. And yet again, the experienced pilots are the only ones who can stop it… Because low timers just do whatever it takes, otherwise you might never get a job… And don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the orther end…
And again, I am against paying for my own type rating as well as line training but I am also against that you have to pay for you education in the first place, because what makes a lawyer more important than a pilot??? And the lawyer doesn’t pay for his education…(Denmark) Again I believe that you should select the qualified people, and only educate the number of pilots required for the industry…
But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay??
That was my opinion, I hope some of you experienced pilots out there would like to comment it.
/BAP
This is not the first time we see this discussion going on here on pprune, but it certainly doesn’t make it less interesting…
I will like to come with my point of view, since I am one of the “wannabes” who has bought a B737 type rating….
And first of all I will like to say that, I do agree with you. It is wrong, that you pay for your own rating! But why did I do it???
Yes simply because it is almost impossible to find a job in the GA business now a days - as a low timer! Okay there is still sightseeing flying etc. but the truth is that, these jobs will only last for a few months and you won’t accumulate more than maybe 50 hours on a season – So now you have 250 hours total, and then what? Yes you could wait another 8 moths, until the season starts again… And maybe after a few years you would have 400-500 VFR hours on a SEP… Still not enough, to get anywhere, as it looks now and has been looking for the past few years.
And trust me on this, because I know both former sightseeing pilots, experienced instructors who have bought a rating, simple because the good old career path isn’t present no more. And all are very skilled pilots, with great personalities.
I recall some of my former flight instructors telling us how they became airline pilots. And yes, they did some sightseeing flights and maybe some time on a small turboprop and was then hired by an airline. And to be honest, I really believe this would be a great way to start a pilot career, but again it is not possible, and why not. Yes okay you can still get the sightseeing job, but getting a job on a small turboprop requires you just as many hours as the big airlines requires, somewhere between 500 and 3000, with some experience on multi engine aircrafts… And how do you get that??
And if any of you experienced pilots out there, who doesn’t believe what I am saying then take yourself some time to look around in the business, and should find some jobs where a lowtimer with 200-300 hours total would qualify then please post here on Pprune…
Okay I believe I have made my point here… So back to the SSTR. Ask you self this question, and assume that you have just finished your training, and the job situation is as I just wrote. “Would you just sit and wait for 1,2,3 or who knows how many years before you get a chance of being employed without the rating?” Yes somebody does find jobs without having to pay for anything, but they do belong to the minority, and as a matter of fact there are more and more low timers giving up there dream because they can’t find a job, and they can’t afford a type rating, and this is not something I make up. And then they have lost not only a dream, but also a lot of money…
So continue with the question: “So now you hear that there is a very good chance of being employed on a large jet, if you pay for you own rating, hence you get a very good job and you get a chance to pay you loan back…” So what do you do??? If there are any of you experienced guys out there, knowing what to do, then please tell us!!!!
Why do we have to pay for our own rating, well because the airlines have decided to, NOT the low timers!! But can you blame the airlines – No not really, they are going through rough times, and if they have a chance of saving money they will do it. That’s called business!
Who is to blame then??? In my opinion it is the experienced pilots, you are the one sitting in FL330 smiling, and most of you don’t give a dame about your future colleagues. You should be the first to say, “ We don’t want our new colleagues to pay for there own ratings, stop hiring low timers with ratings, and select the ones who are skilled and who has the right personality for the company – And then offer them a job with a bond”
The experienced pilots are the only ones who can help us low timers, no one else! Some companies do just that, like for example Thomsonfly… And apparently low time pilots who is giving a chance are doing just fine onboard a big jet, or a small turboprop for that matter!!!
So stop blaming low timers, because we don’t have a choice. We are just doing whatever we can, in order to get a job! And if we have to pay for both the type rating and the line training we do it, not because we want to, but because that is our only option! Most of us have increased our loans in order to pay for this, so it is definitely not something we enjoy!!!
And what have happened now? Yes now a B737 rating is starting to become a part of the initial training and because of that, TRTOs are popping up everywhere, advertising for B737/A320 ratings. – Not because an airline requires it, but because that’s a way of earning money… So now there are so many low time pilots with a B737/A320 rating, that the rating simply isn’t enough. Because now the companies see an opportunity to get line trained pilots, instead of just selecting the skilled ones with the right personality… And what can the low time pilot do about it??? Yes, we can pay for the line training, and hope that this will help us. And yet again, the experienced pilots are the only ones who can stop it… Because low timers just do whatever it takes, otherwise you might never get a job… And don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the orther end…
And again, I am against paying for my own type rating as well as line training but I am also against that you have to pay for you education in the first place, because what makes a lawyer more important than a pilot??? And the lawyer doesn’t pay for his education…(Denmark) Again I believe that you should select the qualified people, and only educate the number of pilots required for the industry…
But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay??
That was my opinion, I hope some of you experienced pilots out there would like to comment it.
/BAP
Last edited by BAP; 11th Dec 2005 at 00:15.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meeb you are quite wrong. At no stage have I suggested that "pay for type ratings is the only way forward for the industry". In fact, on several occasions I have spoken out against the idea. However, SSTRs exist, and are a perfectly legitimate offering, and we at Pprune have a duty to see that they are discussed without resort to the kind of emotional language you adopt.
As for your insinuation that somehow I am involved in some sort of SSTR scam and stand to benefit from people taking up SSTRs with any organisation, I suggest you retract it sharpish.
Scroggs
As for your insinuation that somehow I am involved in some sort of SSTR scam and stand to benefit from people taking up SSTRs with any organisation, I suggest you retract it sharpish.
Scroggs
Join Date: May 2005
Location: varies..a lot
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Scroggs,
Can you tell me the rough cost of paying for such line training? Would love to avoid the cost but if it is an issue in the future, I will do it should there be no alternative.....
However, does this mean that paticular airline will take you on should you perform well during that time, or is it simply like any other rating/licence, after which it's up to you to find employment.
Also, is this line training inclusive of type rating or do you do that first?
Thanks
Can you tell me the rough cost of paying for such line training? Would love to avoid the cost but if it is an issue in the future, I will do it should there be no alternative.....
However, does this mean that paticular airline will take you on should you perform well during that time, or is it simply like any other rating/licence, after which it's up to you to find employment.
Also, is this line training inclusive of type rating or do you do that first?
Thanks
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not a spokesman for these schemes, and a search here will reveal quite a lot of the information you want. I understand that the TR+ line training will cost around £18-25k from most of the companies involved. Some may hold out the carrot of a position with the host airline 'for suitable candidates', but I wouldn't bet the farm on that. If you decide to go this route, you are contracting for a type rating plus a number of hours' line training and nothing more.
Whether such training will give you an advantage in the job market isn't easy to say, but I can tell you that plenty of Pprune's wannabes have been employed in the last few months without such training. My gut feeling is that they are far less advantageous than they once were.
Scroggs
Whether such training will give you an advantage in the job market isn't easy to say, but I can tell you that plenty of Pprune's wannabes have been employed in the last few months without such training. My gut feeling is that they are far less advantageous than they once were.
Scroggs
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meeb,
I have to agree with Scroggs' qoute: can you not see that FTOs like Oxford, Cabair exist because there are people willing to pay for their license. If everybody refused to pay for any training then all airlines would have to start funding cadets. TRTOs are merely an extension of the service provided by FTOs. You may not like it, nor may some of your little friends, but that's the way it is! Your utopian vision of morality within a contemporary commercial environment such as aviation is lovely to hear, but it ain't going to happen.. you sound like a ranting Socialist (note: no political stance against socialism intended)
For your information it is not just 'youngsters' with money.. there are many 'elders' with money too both at FTOs and TRTOs. It doesn't matter what the profession was about because wannabes are not going to experience that (not the current forum we are in), those days (sadly) are gone. From a number of your posts it appears to me that you have a difficulty with excepting change and possibly dwell on the past. There is nothing wrong with reminisence, nostalgia and the like, but exceptance is hugely important. I don't like the way the area I have lived in has changed.. the guns, crime etc but I have to except that is the way it is.. I do not have the power to change matters and you too do not have the power to alter the way aviation is changing.. deal with it.
Oh yeah.. cheers for castigating myself and others as w**kers, real mature mate. I leave my fighting talk for the streets and the pub, this is supposed to be a professional civilised forum. Try to control yourself.
Powder monkey.. pm me if you need any info, ditto to what Scroggs said, there is an evident risk factor involved, I can give you a rough estimate of the success rates
747 Downwind
I have to agree with Scroggs' qoute: can you not see that FTOs like Oxford, Cabair exist because there are people willing to pay for their license. If everybody refused to pay for any training then all airlines would have to start funding cadets. TRTOs are merely an extension of the service provided by FTOs. You may not like it, nor may some of your little friends, but that's the way it is! Your utopian vision of morality within a contemporary commercial environment such as aviation is lovely to hear, but it ain't going to happen.. you sound like a ranting Socialist (note: no political stance against socialism intended)
For your information it is not just 'youngsters' with money.. there are many 'elders' with money too both at FTOs and TRTOs. It doesn't matter what the profession was about because wannabes are not going to experience that (not the current forum we are in), those days (sadly) are gone. From a number of your posts it appears to me that you have a difficulty with excepting change and possibly dwell on the past. There is nothing wrong with reminisence, nostalgia and the like, but exceptance is hugely important. I don't like the way the area I have lived in has changed.. the guns, crime etc but I have to except that is the way it is.. I do not have the power to change matters and you too do not have the power to alter the way aviation is changing.. deal with it.
Oh yeah.. cheers for castigating myself and others as w**kers, real mature mate. I leave my fighting talk for the streets and the pub, this is supposed to be a professional civilised forum. Try to control yourself.
Powder monkey.. pm me if you need any info, ditto to what Scroggs said, there is an evident risk factor involved, I can give you a rough estimate of the success rates
747 Downwind
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Uhmmm.. well thanks to everybody that's contributed to this topic so far... shame that sensitive subjects like this tend to provoke arguments rather than address the main point - which sadly I see hasn't yet been forthcoming! If anybody has definitive information please do post it 
Thanks.
Thanks.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BAP,
Paying to fly is not flying for a living, there's no living involved! It also encourages the majoirty of other airlines to introduce schemes like this and in my opinion will probably reduce pay in the long run as more an more wannabes offer to sacrifice huge amounts of hard earned money.
But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay??
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Berlin
Age: 48
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...?
Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!!
By the way, if it is true that in some countries lawyers do not pay for training, so much for medical doctors...., they have to pay for their practice, their professional insurance, their updates... (yearly congress...).
Does anyone has a idea how much cost a dentist practice ? a lawyer practice ? You could argue, yes, but he can sell it back. One cannot sell a 737 TR back.
My father baught 10 year ago a CPA practice 200 000 euros, do did one of his friend. After 2 year the friends practice lost 70% of its clients....
Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!!
By the way, if it is true that in some countries lawyers do not pay for training, so much for medical doctors...., they have to pay for their practice, their professional insurance, their updates... (yearly congress...).
Does anyone has a idea how much cost a dentist practice ? a lawyer practice ? You could argue, yes, but he can sell it back. One cannot sell a 737 TR back.
My father baught 10 year ago a CPA practice 200 000 euros, do did one of his friend. After 2 year the friends practice lost 70% of its clients....
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Girkfriend is a lawyer and she has just been offered partnership in a large corporate firm, However do to so, she has to buy herself in at a cost of £35,000!
Now if she doesn't she wont get made a partner and she wont get the big money that goes with partnership.
So it seems that pilots aren't the only ones that need to pay for their future.. Personally I don't think it's any different than any other industry..
Now if she doesn't she wont get made a partner and she wont get the big money that goes with partnership.
So it seems that pilots aren't the only ones that need to pay for their future.. Personally I don't think it's any different than any other industry..
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi OBK.
I certainly do understand you point of you, but you haven’t been giving me any answer to my question. If not paying, then what??
Paying to fly is absolutely wrong, but that’s not something that I am planning to do for the rest of my career, that is simply just something I would consider if something doesn’t happen soon. Because right now I am having a B737 type rating, but no job. And since more and more companies won’t settle with the rating alone, I only have two options. The first one is to wait, and for every day that goes I become less interesting to the companies - and the proficiency check is absolutely not for free either. And the last option is to buy the line training, and start flying, and most likely I will get a job after this…
I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business!
And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end…
Good question???
Here is a good example of where the aviation industry is going. http://www.solid-airline.nl/fo.jpg
Frustrating - yes, but what can I do about it?? I can refuse to pay for my own rating and line training, but then I might as well get myself another career, because these are the rules now.. Unless somebody inside the companies do something about it!
Concerning the lawyer/doctor or whatever. Paying for a practice is not the same as paying for an education. I believe it’s comparable with a pilot buying his own plane, to start a company.
But I do agree that it is a matter of paying for a good future, which is very comparable to paying for TR + line training.
/BAP
Paying to fly is not flying for a living, there's no living involved! It also encourages the majoirty of other airlines to introduce schemes like this and in my opinion will probably reduce pay in the long run as more an more wannabes offer to sacrifice huge amounts of hard earned money.
Paying to fly is absolutely wrong, but that’s not something that I am planning to do for the rest of my career, that is simply just something I would consider if something doesn’t happen soon. Because right now I am having a B737 type rating, but no job. And since more and more companies won’t settle with the rating alone, I only have two options. The first one is to wait, and for every day that goes I become less interesting to the companies - and the proficiency check is absolutely not for free either. And the last option is to buy the line training, and start flying, and most likely I will get a job after this…
I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business!
And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end…
I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...?
Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!!
Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!!
Here is a good example of where the aviation industry is going. http://www.solid-airline.nl/fo.jpg
Frustrating - yes, but what can I do about it?? I can refuse to pay for my own rating and line training, but then I might as well get myself another career, because these are the rules now.. Unless somebody inside the companies do something about it!
Concerning the lawyer/doctor or whatever. Paying for a practice is not the same as paying for an education. I believe it’s comparable with a pilot buying his own plane, to start a company.
But I do agree that it is a matter of paying for a good future, which is very comparable to paying for TR + line training.
/BAP