pay again for a new t/r!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pay again for a new t/r!!!!
what do you do if you have already a t/rating(paid by yourself), and a company ask you if you can pay for another type rating???
that start to be very expensive!!!!
that start to be very expensive!!!!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Berlin
Age: 48
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It depends unpon the Airline. If it is Tyrolean or BMI or somthing that sounds honest, and pays off not so bad, why not. But if it sounds like give me your money, we will see afterwards.... I would keep my money !
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Between LPCs
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You obviously get a type rating cos you either want to only fly that type of aircraft above all others or you feel that is your best chance of getting employed - i.e. more airlines fly that type than any other, particularly those that accept a type rating with only a few hours. If you have a chance of a job with an airline that requires you to do a different type rating then that is surely poor targeting on your part - you should not have applied to them in the first place.
I am from the do not pay for a type rating up front camp!
I suspect though that the question is how do you raise yet more money - no idea!
I am from the do not pay for a type rating up front camp!
I suspect though that the question is how do you raise yet more money - no idea!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know by you already holding a type rating it could prove to a company that you can hack the grade to be issued with a type rating.
But it is a double edged sword. If you get a Jet type rating first most TP operators arn't going to look at you because they know fine that as soon as you get a sniff of a job your going to be away and quite happily pay your bond. And currently there are lots of TP jobs going as TP drivers are moving onto jets.
And the 2 ratings stuff is a bit of a miss leading comment you are only meant to be able to be current on 2 types at a time although there are a few select demi gods out there who fly 3-4 types with various conditions imposed. You can have mutliple types on your license all in date some you can use on the line and others you can't. Normally to swap you need a OPC/LPC on type and a couple of sectors line training and away you go. If your multi-pilot IR on that type has lapsed for more than 5 years i think you are required to repeat the ground school.
Persoanlly I would never even consider a Jet type rating unless there is a job at the end of it. I wouldn't pay for a TP rating either but if you must.
But it is a double edged sword. If you get a Jet type rating first most TP operators arn't going to look at you because they know fine that as soon as you get a sniff of a job your going to be away and quite happily pay your bond. And currently there are lots of TP jobs going as TP drivers are moving onto jets.
And the 2 ratings stuff is a bit of a miss leading comment you are only meant to be able to be current on 2 types at a time although there are a few select demi gods out there who fly 3-4 types with various conditions imposed. You can have mutliple types on your license all in date some you can use on the line and others you can't. Normally to swap you need a OPC/LPC on type and a couple of sectors line training and away you go. If your multi-pilot IR on that type has lapsed for more than 5 years i think you are required to repeat the ground school.
Persoanlly I would never even consider a Jet type rating unless there is a job at the end of it. I wouldn't pay for a TP rating either but if you must.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my question was effectively about $$$$, how can a pilot pay for a second type rating, after his cpl, IR, and first type rating.
I have seen some companies asking for a t/r of 12'500 lbs , to be considered...
I have seen some companies asking for a t/r of 12'500 lbs , to be considered...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Monrovia / Liberia
Age: 63
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody should be expected to pay for type-rating(s) & I wish to God that the CAA would slap a ban on TRTO's that sell them to wanabees with little or no prospect of employment at the end of the training course. I.e. (imho) only airlines offering employment, for said same type-rated pilots, should be allowed to provide type-ratings.
Some years ago, the CAA nearly did ban TRTO's from selling type-ratings to wanabees - but the big £$€'s involved forced the argument in favour of the TRTO's, whereupon the CAA capitulated, and the rest is history.
Buying type ratings distorts the employment market, is bad for terms & conditions for all, and is a hugely risky & expensive undertaking for the person that feels compelled to pay.
Fortunately my employer (as do many of the better employers) provides free / un-bonded type-ratings for its pilots when it requires them to change aircraft type - and bloody right too !
Some years ago, the CAA nearly did ban TRTO's from selling type-ratings to wanabees - but the big £$€'s involved forced the argument in favour of the TRTO's, whereupon the CAA capitulated, and the rest is history.
Buying type ratings distorts the employment market, is bad for terms & conditions for all, and is a hugely risky & expensive undertaking for the person that feels compelled to pay.
Fortunately my employer (as do many of the better employers) provides free / un-bonded type-ratings for its pilots when it requires them to change aircraft type - and bloody right too !
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Spain
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a suggestion:
People collect signatures for all sorts of causes all the time. Would it not be possible to do something similar in aviation. Can't pilots organize themselves against the whole "Pay your own type rating" thing. Can't we collect a couple of thousand signatures and hand an official petition in to the CAA against this? Or can we only feel victimized, grumble and pay! Are we destined to jump through the hoops at whatever cost?
Again just a sugestion! It is done for all sorts of causes, I don't see why not for ours
United we stand, divided we pay
People collect signatures for all sorts of causes all the time. Would it not be possible to do something similar in aviation. Can't pilots organize themselves against the whole "Pay your own type rating" thing. Can't we collect a couple of thousand signatures and hand an official petition in to the CAA against this? Or can we only feel victimized, grumble and pay! Are we destined to jump through the hoops at whatever cost?
Again just a sugestion! It is done for all sorts of causes, I don't see why not for ours
United we stand, divided we pay
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Monrovia / Liberia
Age: 63
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A320rider - but that's the bit they (TRTO's) don't tell you about when you're looking to pay for your type-rating, i.e. that many people pay for a type-rating and yet still fail to find employment when ( IF ) they complete the course.
Their premis is all based on "Of course there'll be jobs !" and / or "We'll see you alright and put in a good word for you with xyz operator - so long as you do our course" and / or "Err, failures ? Follow-up success rates ? Look, never mind all that, just give us yer f'kin money !"..... and "All together now JAM TOMORROW !"
I suppose one might say that TRTO's are like farmers, i.e. they'll plead poverty, but you don't see many poor ones.... uhm, go figure ?!
Their premis is all based on "Of course there'll be jobs !" and / or "We'll see you alright and put in a good word for you with xyz operator - so long as you do our course" and / or "Err, failures ? Follow-up success rates ? Look, never mind all that, just give us yer f'kin money !"..... and "All together now JAM TOMORROW !"
I suppose one might say that TRTO's are like farmers, i.e. they'll plead poverty, but you don't see many poor ones.... uhm, go figure ?!
Why should the CAA ban TRTOs from selling type ratings just because a lot of people don't like it. I thought the CAA's job was to regulate safety. What's dangerous about paying for your own type rating?
There are enough complaints about the CAA interfering in industry. Now some of you want them to interfere more.
"TRTO's that sell them to wanabees with little or no prospect of employment at the end of the training course." Why restrict this argument to type ratings? Why not ban CPL and ATPL courses to wanabees unless they have a job lined up at the end? Where do you draw the line?
Paying for type ratings is not popular with a lot of wanabees but while there are still some who will go down this route it will happen. You cannot regulate against it. It's a free market economy.
Sits back and waits for the flak!
There are enough complaints about the CAA interfering in industry. Now some of you want them to interfere more.
"TRTO's that sell them to wanabees with little or no prospect of employment at the end of the training course." Why restrict this argument to type ratings? Why not ban CPL and ATPL courses to wanabees unless they have a job lined up at the end? Where do you draw the line?
Paying for type ratings is not popular with a lot of wanabees but while there are still some who will go down this route it will happen. You cannot regulate against it. It's a free market economy.
Sits back and waits for the flak!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why should be a flak?,
there is already a captain shortage. who is faulty?, our companies who do not want pay the upgrade for a left seat.
what we will see soon, foreigners coming in europe, getting EU work permit, and well paid jobs, during this time young pilots like me and you , receive negative answers after having sent hundred of CVs.
instead of making a petition asking TRTO to stop selling type ratings, we should ask our immigration offices all over Europe to stop to let enter thousand of foreign pilots and get OUR jobs.I am sure they get pretty much easy work visas based on their experience.
I think such type of petition has to be adressed to Bruxel.
I personaly think it is disgusting to see how hard it is for us to immigrate to austria, canada, or USA.When Europe is full of these people and have now even more rights than us.
I have many friends in the USA, and Austria, who came back to europe, simply because no work visa has been issued , but here I see many foreigners who work now here, simplya because they have 1000 h jet and a type rating.
the EU training is the most expensive training in the world, and we are now discriminated by a lack of experience. Aviaiion is taxed by all EU countries (landing fee, fuel, CAA fees,...)and now, airlines are looking (or will soon look)to get pilots somewhere elses.
By chance, the CAA and other EU agencies are under JAA rules, but I have learned than some eastern EU countries, now accept any ICAO license.
Should we all go to East now?
there is already a captain shortage. who is faulty?, our companies who do not want pay the upgrade for a left seat.
what we will see soon, foreigners coming in europe, getting EU work permit, and well paid jobs, during this time young pilots like me and you , receive negative answers after having sent hundred of CVs.
instead of making a petition asking TRTO to stop selling type ratings, we should ask our immigration offices all over Europe to stop to let enter thousand of foreign pilots and get OUR jobs.I am sure they get pretty much easy work visas based on their experience.
I think such type of petition has to be adressed to Bruxel.
I personaly think it is disgusting to see how hard it is for us to immigrate to austria, canada, or USA.When Europe is full of these people and have now even more rights than us.
I have many friends in the USA, and Austria, who came back to europe, simply because no work visa has been issued , but here I see many foreigners who work now here, simplya because they have 1000 h jet and a type rating.
the EU training is the most expensive training in the world, and we are now discriminated by a lack of experience. Aviaiion is taxed by all EU countries (landing fee, fuel, CAA fees,...)and now, airlines are looking (or will soon look)to get pilots somewhere elses.
By chance, the CAA and other EU agencies are under JAA rules, but I have learned than some eastern EU countries, now accept any ICAO license.
Should we all go to East now?
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Spain
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may not have expressed my point properly. Please allow me to elaborate.
This whole "Pay your own Type Rating" thing is not exactly fair the way it is being implemented at the moment.
*If you have to pay yourself, why is it that you do not have a choice of Training Provider. You are not free to choose your own TRTO. You have to use one of the "PREFFERED", "APPROVED" or "Designated" TRTOs by the airline.....so much for free market.
*In order to supply a recognised type rating course a training organization has to get CAA (or whatever national equivalent authority) Approval. They need to have a TRTO cert. an approved syllabus in compliance with Jar.FCL requirements, use Certified Simulators each with a valid STD Cert. and the course must be given by SFIs and or TRIs rated instructors. All Proficiency checks are done with an TRE/SFE rated checkperson. So in theory they all should comply with LEGAL requirements. If what's really important is the TYPE RATING per se.
*If the theory behind prefered TRTOs is that they impart a Type Rating course tailored to a particular company then this particular company should foot the bill. Or at least the part that customises the procedures to their use!
*On the matter of the CAA banning selfsponsored TPs, I agree it does not fall within their supervisory tasks. But, it is a labour issue, hence it does have a case in labour courts (as will a few Dublin Based pilots soon demonstrate, hopefully). A pilot job is still a job and there is no reason for normal rules not to apply.
*Our profession has changed, that's a given. There's nothing we can do about it and should not try to turn back the clock. Gone are the "Catch me if you can" days. That's a reality we have to face and get along. But the system should work it should be realistic and fair. People's perception of our job strangely enough has not kept up with the changes. How often doesn't it happen to all of us that when someone asks :"What do you do for a living", and you tell them you are a pilot, they react as if you swim in money. They still have the perception that the job is glamorous and overpaid. That we sleep in 5 star hotels on long layovers in exotic destinations. How far from the truth
I believe this misconception is partly responsible for the lack of affirmitive action by labour authorities.
*If airlines want you to pay for your TP, OK. But they should also give you the liberty to choose whichever TRTO (that complies with the LEGAL requirements) you want. After all do we live in a totalitarian state? Why should we have to put up with dictators.
No one should get their cake and eat it too!
This whole "Pay your own Type Rating" thing is not exactly fair the way it is being implemented at the moment.
*If you have to pay yourself, why is it that you do not have a choice of Training Provider. You are not free to choose your own TRTO. You have to use one of the "PREFFERED", "APPROVED" or "Designated" TRTOs by the airline.....so much for free market.
*In order to supply a recognised type rating course a training organization has to get CAA (or whatever national equivalent authority) Approval. They need to have a TRTO cert. an approved syllabus in compliance with Jar.FCL requirements, use Certified Simulators each with a valid STD Cert. and the course must be given by SFIs and or TRIs rated instructors. All Proficiency checks are done with an TRE/SFE rated checkperson. So in theory they all should comply with LEGAL requirements. If what's really important is the TYPE RATING per se.
*If the theory behind prefered TRTOs is that they impart a Type Rating course tailored to a particular company then this particular company should foot the bill. Or at least the part that customises the procedures to their use!
*On the matter of the CAA banning selfsponsored TPs, I agree it does not fall within their supervisory tasks. But, it is a labour issue, hence it does have a case in labour courts (as will a few Dublin Based pilots soon demonstrate, hopefully). A pilot job is still a job and there is no reason for normal rules not to apply.
*Our profession has changed, that's a given. There's nothing we can do about it and should not try to turn back the clock. Gone are the "Catch me if you can" days. That's a reality we have to face and get along. But the system should work it should be realistic and fair. People's perception of our job strangely enough has not kept up with the changes. How often doesn't it happen to all of us that when someone asks :"What do you do for a living", and you tell them you are a pilot, they react as if you swim in money. They still have the perception that the job is glamorous and overpaid. That we sleep in 5 star hotels on long layovers in exotic destinations. How far from the truth
I believe this misconception is partly responsible for the lack of affirmitive action by labour authorities.
*If airlines want you to pay for your TP, OK. But they should also give you the liberty to choose whichever TRTO (that complies with the LEGAL requirements) you want. After all do we live in a totalitarian state? Why should we have to put up with dictators.
No one should get their cake and eat it too!
One reason airlines may specify a particular TRTO for a type rating is that they have agreed with them to reach the rating using their own SOPs, therefore transfer to line flying is simpler. Making such an arrangement with a large number of TRTOs may not be worth the bother to them. Much easier for them to specify one or two TRTOs than have numerous meetings with a lot of TRTOs discussing individual training requirements. Maybe not fair but airlines will always chose the easiest route where possible.