Why to stop paying for type ratings.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Global
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why to stop paying for type ratings.
Firstly we must differentiate the difference between a “return of service bond” and “paying for a rating”.
A return of service bond is either one of two things,
A) The company pays for your rating and in return you guarantee a number of years service. If you leave early you are responsible for a percentage of the outstanding amount.
B) You pay for the rating with the guarantee of employment on FULL fo salary and the company reimburses you the cost of the rating over a time period.
Paying for a rating is simply this.
You fork out your hard earnt $$$ (or generally a relatives) and pay for a type rating for a particular aircraft, with no guarantee of a job and no salary! This comes in two forms
A) Not Cheap - Rating Only.
B) Extremely Not Cheap - Rating with a couple hundred hours.
Paying for a rating WHY?
Have a read of the excellent thread in Terms and Endearment about the training crunch.
Here http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=1
Now think of this.
1) Just because you have a rating does not mean you are entitled to a job, it simply means that an airline does not have to pay for a full type rating course. You will do an abbreviated course so that you fly the aircraft in the manner that a particular company likes.
(for the newbies this means that some company’s have different procedures for flying the exact same aircraft. Company A may require you to be fully established on the approach by X miles in the landing configuration even though the day is CAVOK. Company B may allow its pilots to conduct a visual approach to the same airport in the same conditions and hence track shorten by 20 odd miles, (at 3 miles a minute that’s almost 7 minutes = $$$)
They are still going to have to invest in you, be it additional training, super nummary safety pilots, whatever they are still spending money on you. Nothing is for free.
2) If you have a type rating on a B737 what good is for an airline operating A320’s, F-all. It means that the recruiters have found a sucker willing to spend their own money!
It means that if you do get hired, you will now have two ratings to pay off!
3) A regional airline will look at guys who have paid for a jet type rating and say….
“why should we hire this guy because the moment that there is more movement we will see him off to the bigger boys club….. too risky for us to hire him!”
Essentially you are limiting your opportunities, why do you think a well known turboprop operator from the south “generally” I WILL SAY IT AGAIN “generally” take a lot of guy fresh out of school?? But the better question is why do the crews generally run given the first opportunity to get out?
4) If the likes of FR are advertising that we are still looking for pilots, apply and send us your £50, why then did they just drop the requirement for type rated guys WITH hours on type to pay the £50?
Are they finding it hard to find people?
Are they still finding suckers to pay the £50 and help pay MOL’s exponential solicitors and barristers bills?
Answers YES & YES I beg to argue.
Another case in point is an airline out there that is advertising “we are looking for crew” you contact them meet the entry requirements but then….. Sorry we don’t have a position for you, however if you would like to spend ££$$€€ on one of our type rating courses you may (MAY) be offered a position. WTF! You are simply subsidising their operation.
Funnily enough that the courses in the UK are generally 30% more expensive than on the continent… now why would that be?
What paying for a type rating really does.
Do the likes of the majors, even some of the not so majors make you fork out for your own rating… NO. Have all the majors been struggling over the past few years, generally yes.
Now how many newbies have sent out the 10 million resume’s and never got a response from some? But generally the ones that have responded are bigger carriers, those that have an IN HOUSE recruitment facility.
Now the likes of most EU majors have been feeling the pinch on their continental networks, Long haul is still supporting the short haul, but short haul is essential to get passengers to their final destination and feed the LH business.
The reason short haul has been feeling the pinch is the popularity of the LoCo’s. Hey I too can’t afford to shell out big bucks when I can jump a LoCo at one tenth the cost in some cases so they do have a point.
So then how do the LoCo’s make money if they operate exactly the same aircraft as big brother?
Its quite simple really, you subsidise them! And yes I mean YOU. How?
Indirectly.
Regional airports apply to the government or their local constituency for funds to improve the local airport. The local airport or authority also my subsidise the flights coming in and out. These are your taxes at work, (if you are not working, then its your parents) either way YOU are subsidising the LoCo’s
Your tax dollar in some ways helps subsidise the building of aircraft (in the EU) this subsidy can then be passed on to an airline who would like to buy a LARGE number of jets. This subsidy is generally not direct but factored into the manufactures production or development cost.
Directly.
You are paying for a type rating.
You are paying for an application and or screening.
You are not being paid a viable salary for the first X months of employment
You are not being paid a salary at all, you only get the hours.
Summary,
If you did pay for your rating, and you did not earn a salary, how did you afford to live? Are you in fact being subsidised by some one else to subsidise an airline?
Do you think that is fair?
Do you think that the crew of a ship / train / truck are suckered into paying for a rating? Yes that will be one QE2 rating thank you!
Question: You have handed over a lot of money, what was your motivation?
Money / Prestige / Lifestyle?
Do you really think any of the above exists in the same abundance as it did in the glory days of aviation.
The money has been getting progressively worse across the board, T&C’s are being eroded in the allowances, duties, pensions, travel benefits (try getting a staff ticket somewhere good in summer).
Prestige, humm interesting one that, how do you define that. There is no glamour at 4 in the morning is what I was told once and it applies to many situations. Our industry is one. Once we were respected in our uniform, crews were treated with dignity for our profession, we are the ones who have done the 6 month checks, have the medicals, and worked all hours. Now the guy that drives bus to the plane makes more than the FO!
Lifestyle, another interesting point. Is it really a lifestyle when you are too tired to do anything on your day off. Is it a lifestyle when you have a second job to help pay the bills because you aren’t earning a salary?
On BBC world the other day they had show on slavery…. Some of the points that qualify a job as slavery can be found right here in our industry!
The Future?
I don’t have a crystal ball, nobody does. A couple years ago I was having dinner with a friend in the oil industry, he say that if oil reached $50 a barrel this decade he’d eat his hat. A couple months ago we BBQ’d him one, apparently greasy cotton tastes like $h!t.
But we are seeing things move, there is progression, and as others have pointed out, infrastructure development is at an all time high, airlines are cancelling flights because of a lack of crew, and now some are having to look at the way they recruit because they cant get the right people. These are facts.
This may or may not sway some of the aspiring pilots out there, if you are in this game for the money/glamour/lifestyle, become a corporate banker, because the moneys shrinking, girls want a guy whose home at night & if you want advanced aging through disrupted sleep patterns and environment then sure come on join the party.
A return of service bond is either one of two things,
A) The company pays for your rating and in return you guarantee a number of years service. If you leave early you are responsible for a percentage of the outstanding amount.
B) You pay for the rating with the guarantee of employment on FULL fo salary and the company reimburses you the cost of the rating over a time period.
Paying for a rating is simply this.
You fork out your hard earnt $$$ (or generally a relatives) and pay for a type rating for a particular aircraft, with no guarantee of a job and no salary! This comes in two forms
A) Not Cheap - Rating Only.
B) Extremely Not Cheap - Rating with a couple hundred hours.
Paying for a rating WHY?
Have a read of the excellent thread in Terms and Endearment about the training crunch.
Here http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=1
Now think of this.
1) Just because you have a rating does not mean you are entitled to a job, it simply means that an airline does not have to pay for a full type rating course. You will do an abbreviated course so that you fly the aircraft in the manner that a particular company likes.
(for the newbies this means that some company’s have different procedures for flying the exact same aircraft. Company A may require you to be fully established on the approach by X miles in the landing configuration even though the day is CAVOK. Company B may allow its pilots to conduct a visual approach to the same airport in the same conditions and hence track shorten by 20 odd miles, (at 3 miles a minute that’s almost 7 minutes = $$$)
They are still going to have to invest in you, be it additional training, super nummary safety pilots, whatever they are still spending money on you. Nothing is for free.
2) If you have a type rating on a B737 what good is for an airline operating A320’s, F-all. It means that the recruiters have found a sucker willing to spend their own money!
It means that if you do get hired, you will now have two ratings to pay off!
3) A regional airline will look at guys who have paid for a jet type rating and say….
“why should we hire this guy because the moment that there is more movement we will see him off to the bigger boys club….. too risky for us to hire him!”
Essentially you are limiting your opportunities, why do you think a well known turboprop operator from the south “generally” I WILL SAY IT AGAIN “generally” take a lot of guy fresh out of school?? But the better question is why do the crews generally run given the first opportunity to get out?
4) If the likes of FR are advertising that we are still looking for pilots, apply and send us your £50, why then did they just drop the requirement for type rated guys WITH hours on type to pay the £50?
Are they finding it hard to find people?
Are they still finding suckers to pay the £50 and help pay MOL’s exponential solicitors and barristers bills?
Answers YES & YES I beg to argue.
Another case in point is an airline out there that is advertising “we are looking for crew” you contact them meet the entry requirements but then….. Sorry we don’t have a position for you, however if you would like to spend ££$$€€ on one of our type rating courses you may (MAY) be offered a position. WTF! You are simply subsidising their operation.
Funnily enough that the courses in the UK are generally 30% more expensive than on the continent… now why would that be?
What paying for a type rating really does.
Do the likes of the majors, even some of the not so majors make you fork out for your own rating… NO. Have all the majors been struggling over the past few years, generally yes.
Now how many newbies have sent out the 10 million resume’s and never got a response from some? But generally the ones that have responded are bigger carriers, those that have an IN HOUSE recruitment facility.
Now the likes of most EU majors have been feeling the pinch on their continental networks, Long haul is still supporting the short haul, but short haul is essential to get passengers to their final destination and feed the LH business.
The reason short haul has been feeling the pinch is the popularity of the LoCo’s. Hey I too can’t afford to shell out big bucks when I can jump a LoCo at one tenth the cost in some cases so they do have a point.
So then how do the LoCo’s make money if they operate exactly the same aircraft as big brother?
Its quite simple really, you subsidise them! And yes I mean YOU. How?
Indirectly.
Regional airports apply to the government or their local constituency for funds to improve the local airport. The local airport or authority also my subsidise the flights coming in and out. These are your taxes at work, (if you are not working, then its your parents) either way YOU are subsidising the LoCo’s
Your tax dollar in some ways helps subsidise the building of aircraft (in the EU) this subsidy can then be passed on to an airline who would like to buy a LARGE number of jets. This subsidy is generally not direct but factored into the manufactures production or development cost.
Directly.
You are paying for a type rating.
You are paying for an application and or screening.
You are not being paid a viable salary for the first X months of employment
You are not being paid a salary at all, you only get the hours.
Summary,
If you did pay for your rating, and you did not earn a salary, how did you afford to live? Are you in fact being subsidised by some one else to subsidise an airline?
Do you think that is fair?
Do you think that the crew of a ship / train / truck are suckered into paying for a rating? Yes that will be one QE2 rating thank you!
Question: You have handed over a lot of money, what was your motivation?
Money / Prestige / Lifestyle?
Do you really think any of the above exists in the same abundance as it did in the glory days of aviation.
The money has been getting progressively worse across the board, T&C’s are being eroded in the allowances, duties, pensions, travel benefits (try getting a staff ticket somewhere good in summer).
Prestige, humm interesting one that, how do you define that. There is no glamour at 4 in the morning is what I was told once and it applies to many situations. Our industry is one. Once we were respected in our uniform, crews were treated with dignity for our profession, we are the ones who have done the 6 month checks, have the medicals, and worked all hours. Now the guy that drives bus to the plane makes more than the FO!
Lifestyle, another interesting point. Is it really a lifestyle when you are too tired to do anything on your day off. Is it a lifestyle when you have a second job to help pay the bills because you aren’t earning a salary?
On BBC world the other day they had show on slavery…. Some of the points that qualify a job as slavery can be found right here in our industry!
The Future?
I don’t have a crystal ball, nobody does. A couple years ago I was having dinner with a friend in the oil industry, he say that if oil reached $50 a barrel this decade he’d eat his hat. A couple months ago we BBQ’d him one, apparently greasy cotton tastes like $h!t.
But we are seeing things move, there is progression, and as others have pointed out, infrastructure development is at an all time high, airlines are cancelling flights because of a lack of crew, and now some are having to look at the way they recruit because they cant get the right people. These are facts.
This may or may not sway some of the aspiring pilots out there, if you are in this game for the money/glamour/lifestyle, become a corporate banker, because the moneys shrinking, girls want a guy whose home at night & if you want advanced aging through disrupted sleep patterns and environment then sure come on join the party.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said - Lots of food for thought 
(Im an fATPL with no money for a type-rating but I hope with all my heart that this attitude that you must pay for it to get a job is squashed and that those employers who require it are treated with the contempt they deserve. We subsidise the industry waaaaay too much already by training in the first place!)
(Im an fATPL with no money for a type-rating but I hope with all my heart that this attitude that you must pay for it to get a job is squashed and that those employers who require it are treated with the contempt they deserve. We subsidise the industry waaaaay too much already by training in the first place!)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IHD,
You certainly have some valid points IMHO.
I have almost 3000 hrs TT with almost 1000 hrs command in ME turboprop ops., yet no company seems to be interested in hiring me. (looking worldwide with FAA ATP and JAA fATP)
They all want a typerating (and often some hours on type) and no, I am not aiming too high (at wide body operators) but concentrating on turboprop and small/medium jet operators.
Now, if I want a job I will need a typerating but as everybody knows, there are no guarantees when you do a typerating on yourself. If I select to do a typerating course, then I will limit myself applying to those companies that operate that type of plane only. ..........Quite a gamble.
You certainly have some valid points IMHO.
I have almost 3000 hrs TT with almost 1000 hrs command in ME turboprop ops., yet no company seems to be interested in hiring me. (looking worldwide with FAA ATP and JAA fATP)
They all want a typerating (and often some hours on type) and no, I am not aiming too high (at wide body operators) but concentrating on turboprop and small/medium jet operators.
Now, if I want a job I will need a typerating but as everybody knows, there are no guarantees when you do a typerating on yourself. If I select to do a typerating course, then I will limit myself applying to those companies that operate that type of plane only. ..........Quite a gamble.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IHD - quite correct on most fronts, however, it seems the next step in your logic is for us unemployed wanabees (as flight crew, at least) to all hold hands and sing "we are the world"... 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Salop
Age: 57
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post IHD ! Totally agree !! It absolutely beggars belief to me the lengths people will go to get a job, and before I get shot down in flames I know there are people out there who have been looking for a long time and see a TR as a means to an end, but its ridiculous !! Serious hard earned cash or loans have already been spent. When I decided to venture down this road people paying for TR's wasn't something I'd really heard of !! It seems the goal posts moved somewhat whilst I was down the training route and I quite frankly ther is no way I'm paying for a TR. If there was solidarity the airlines would eventually have to concede ! I'm about to do an MCC and then I'm well and truly fATPL and any more cash that is spent after that (renewing ratings etc aside) will be on me and my family thank you very much.
If an airline said; "O.K. Here's the deal .... if you lease your own 737 we'll let you come and fly for us for free !!" there'd be someone out there that would consider it a viable option !!
Cheers,
CG.
If an airline said; "O.K. Here's the deal .... if you lease your own 737 we'll let you come and fly for us for free !!" there'd be someone out there that would consider it a viable option !!
Cheers,
CG.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree certainly !
I am like cap loko, thousand of hours, some turbine time,....and noone seems interested by me. all they want is a type rating, they didnt ask for hours as I have already plenty of hours in my logbook.
what should I do???wait until I reach 65 years old, or find the money , do a type and apply?
time have changed,...and soon a type rating will be a minimum reqirement.You want bet? like the MCC.
I am pissed by this situation, where the problem is only money, money, money!!!
oh, and BTW, when airlines will need pilots, they will look in the USA to get airline pilots with experience, they poor EU guy with 300hours, no question!
then the EU will give work permit and a EU"green card" to these experienced pilots.Guys from oxford, Bristol, etc... you can go stamp in your unemployment office. thats the futur!
I am like cap loko, thousand of hours, some turbine time,....and noone seems interested by me. all they want is a type rating, they didnt ask for hours as I have already plenty of hours in my logbook.
what should I do???wait until I reach 65 years old, or find the money , do a type and apply?
time have changed,...and soon a type rating will be a minimum reqirement.You want bet? like the MCC.
I am pissed by this situation, where the problem is only money, money, money!!!
oh, and BTW, when airlines will need pilots, they will look in the USA to get airline pilots with experience, they poor EU guy with 300hours, no question!
then the EU will give work permit and a EU"green card" to these experienced pilots.Guys from oxford, Bristol, etc... you can go stamp in your unemployment office. thats the futur!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: EU
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not plenty of hours but paying for a TR won't give you a job righ now unless you already have jet time or have a big contact.
I did the A320 rating and all airlines asked me a minimum of 300 or 500 hours on type, so I guess they do not really need pilots at the moment so they do what they want with the minimums.
A friend of mine is still looking for a job, he has more than 1000 hrs turbine , FAA and JAR ATPL + 737NG rating and airlines ask him hours on type....
In this industry we always need more and more
I did the A320 rating and all airlines asked me a minimum of 300 or 500 hours on type, so I guess they do not really need pilots at the moment so they do what they want with the minimums.
A friend of mine is still looking for a job, he has more than 1000 hrs turbine , FAA and JAR ATPL + 737NG rating and airlines ask him hours on type....
In this industry we always need more and more
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Europe
Age: 49
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAB
How come you where defending paying for a type rating and hours in the Eaglejet program thread?
If you know already that this is not going to get you a job, why you defend the undefendable?
The worse is that you where sugesting to all low hours pilots to get a TR, that just to justify your behaviour, knowing that this is not getting them anywere,
If you know already that this is not going to get you a job, why you defend the undefendable?
am not plenty of hours but paying for a TR won't give you a job righ now unless you already have jet time or have a big contact.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is not the airlines it's us... There are simply too many of us wanting to fly and it takes about a year or two of commerical flying before the rose-tinted specs come off (just taking mine off now - he he)...
If "Airline Pilot" had the same job appeal as say.... "Account Executive" (no offence to them) this problem with type ratings wouldn't exist.. but it doesn't....The bottom line is it's still overall a cool, fun rewarding job compared to being stuck in an office meeting getting b*$*"ked by David Brent because you haven't sold enough yellow, feint-margin, recycled paper this month.
As long as it remains an attractive job compared to other jobs, we will unfortunately be in competition with each other with regards qualifications, aptitude, economics, age and all the other unpleasant ways of stacking us up.
If "Airline Pilot" had the same job appeal as say.... "Account Executive" (no offence to them) this problem with type ratings wouldn't exist.. but it doesn't....The bottom line is it's still overall a cool, fun rewarding job compared to being stuck in an office meeting getting b*$*"ked by David Brent because you haven't sold enough yellow, feint-margin, recycled paper this month.
As long as it remains an attractive job compared to other jobs, we will unfortunately be in competition with each other with regards qualifications, aptitude, economics, age and all the other unpleasant ways of stacking us up.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: EU
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LEVC,
I mean a TR won't give you a job if you don't already have jet hours or if you do not pay your own line training (or if you don't have a big contact).
Before I started the type rating course, I knew that I had to pay for hours on type that's why I am now waiting for the next step which is doing the line training on the A320 and of course, I won't touch the sidestick at the begining, it's the same way for everybody starting...
You should stop listening others otherwise you will never go forward.
There are jobs, you have to go and look for it, it won't come to you. Airlines need qualified pilots ready to operate, they don't care how you obtained the flight experience on type.Nowdays the word is: money.
The guy without the qualification will be at the end of the list and unfortunately, more and more pilots are paying their own rating. If you want to stay at the rear, it's your choice, it's too late to change this system.
Concerning the line training, I personally know 4 guys who paid their experience and are presently F/O and paid. Sorry but I prefer to listen those guys instead of those who are always complaining and doing nothing.
cheers
I mean a TR won't give you a job if you don't already have jet hours or if you do not pay your own line training (or if you don't have a big contact).
Before I started the type rating course, I knew that I had to pay for hours on type that's why I am now waiting for the next step which is doing the line training on the A320 and of course, I won't touch the sidestick at the begining, it's the same way for everybody starting...
If you know already that this is not going to get you a job, why you defend the undefendable?
There are jobs, you have to go and look for it, it won't come to you. Airlines need qualified pilots ready to operate, they don't care how you obtained the flight experience on type.Nowdays the word is: money.
The guy without the qualification will be at the end of the list and unfortunately, more and more pilots are paying their own rating. If you want to stay at the rear, it's your choice, it's too late to change this system.
Concerning the line training, I personally know 4 guys who paid their experience and are presently F/O and paid. Sorry but I prefer to listen those guys instead of those who are always complaining and doing nothing.
cheers
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Salop
Age: 57
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAB
"Nowdays the word is: money.
The guy without the qualification will be at the end of the list and unfortunately, more and more pilots are paying their own rating. If you want to stay at the rear, it's your choice, it's too late to change this system.
Concerning the line training, I personally know 4 guys who paid their experience and are presently F/O and paid. Sorry but I prefer to listen those guys instead of those who are always complaining and doing nothing."
Nowadays it would indeed seem the word is money ......... our money !! Quite frankly we've paid enough and if an airline wants us to fly their planes, then they can pay up for the rating. I could be swayed if an FO started out on a good wedge but it takes years before you start earning any decent money. Airlines can right off these expenses against tax. At the end of the flying a plane for a living is a job – just that, a means to earn money !! We need to be able to pay for mortgages and family etc, not paying back a loan of £20k for a TR and being paid peanuts. People paying for TR's !! Where will it end ??? Well we even hear of the likes of FR who expect their crew to pay for their own overnight accomm etc if a plane goes tech downline !! Totally out of order !! It's time to stick the middle digit up to the airlines who expect pilots to pay for so much of what they should be paying for. If pilots don't they give the message to the airlines, hey you can come and rip me off anytime, and bit by bit your T&C will be eroded so much that your quality of life has reduced so much you are simply living an existence !!
If this is the only way of getting a job – too bad !! I will let others do it. I will always fly and I'd rather spend £20k towards a decent plane or a fraction of that in a share. The training to date, although perhaps a little OTT for private flying has made me a much better pilot and so I can level it with myself that the money I've spent to date hasn't really been wasted !! But enough is enough and I wish pilots would stop paying for TR's cos if no of them did ……. The airlines would eventually have to concede and start training people, otherwise eventually there would be no to fly their planes !!! Simple !!
"Nowdays the word is: money.
The guy without the qualification will be at the end of the list and unfortunately, more and more pilots are paying their own rating. If you want to stay at the rear, it's your choice, it's too late to change this system.
Concerning the line training, I personally know 4 guys who paid their experience and are presently F/O and paid. Sorry but I prefer to listen those guys instead of those who are always complaining and doing nothing."
Nowadays it would indeed seem the word is money ......... our money !! Quite frankly we've paid enough and if an airline wants us to fly their planes, then they can pay up for the rating. I could be swayed if an FO started out on a good wedge but it takes years before you start earning any decent money. Airlines can right off these expenses against tax. At the end of the flying a plane for a living is a job – just that, a means to earn money !! We need to be able to pay for mortgages and family etc, not paying back a loan of £20k for a TR and being paid peanuts. People paying for TR's !! Where will it end ??? Well we even hear of the likes of FR who expect their crew to pay for their own overnight accomm etc if a plane goes tech downline !! Totally out of order !! It's time to stick the middle digit up to the airlines who expect pilots to pay for so much of what they should be paying for. If pilots don't they give the message to the airlines, hey you can come and rip me off anytime, and bit by bit your T&C will be eroded so much that your quality of life has reduced so much you are simply living an existence !!
If this is the only way of getting a job – too bad !! I will let others do it. I will always fly and I'd rather spend £20k towards a decent plane or a fraction of that in a share. The training to date, although perhaps a little OTT for private flying has made me a much better pilot and so I can level it with myself that the money I've spent to date hasn't really been wasted !! But enough is enough and I wish pilots would stop paying for TR's cos if no of them did ……. The airlines would eventually have to concede and start training people, otherwise eventually there would be no to fly their planes !!! Simple !!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this is the only way of getting a job – too bad !! I will let others do it. I will always fly and I'd rather spend £20k towards a decent plane or a fraction of that in a share. The training to date, although perhaps a little OTT for private flying has made me a much better pilot and so I can level it with myself that the money I've spent to date hasn't really been wasted !!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just found out that two of my pals, fed up with waiting for the big break, have decided to start the ball rolling on paying for the TR with Ryanair 
Gutted.
Its not that I dont understand where they are coming from, but as some have already said, the line has to be drawn.
We (Pilots) are assets just like their 737s and its about time someone stopped it. I suppose that will never happen tho if people are prepared to be shafted in the short term as they're 'looking at the bigger picture'. FR don't deserve us.
Gutted.Its not that I dont understand where they are coming from, but as some have already said, the line has to be drawn.
We (Pilots) are assets just like their 737s and its about time someone stopped it. I suppose that will never happen tho if people are prepared to be shafted in the short term as they're 'looking at the bigger picture'. FR don't deserve us.
Last edited by Lolo737; 26th May 2005 at 16:07.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lolo737,
Don't know if I got it right:
Did your friends manage to get on board the Ryanair TR program?
Because as far as I understand, people are more or less standing in lines in order to get on Ryanair's TR program through CAE and SASFA? It requires more than just "decide to pay for your rating".
Best Regards
/Björn
Don't know if I got it right:
Did your friends manage to get on board the Ryanair TR program?
Because as far as I understand, people are more or less standing in lines in order to get on Ryanair's TR program through CAE and SASFA? It requires more than just "decide to pay for your rating".
Best Regards
/Björn
When you examine 'low cost', you soon realise it isn't low cost (well maybe for the first ten or so to book their tickets a year in advance), it's really 'low overheads'.
As pilots, we are overheads. By paying the lo co airlines to train us (for which they claim back the tax relief on our cash at corporate tax rates which is why we can't claim it back) we have created the current situation.
PS. Is MOL eating porridge yet?
As pilots, we are overheads. By paying the lo co airlines to train us (for which they claim back the tax relief on our cash at corporate tax rates which is why we can't claim it back) we have created the current situation.
PS. Is MOL eating porridge yet?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One aspect that seems to have been overlooked in this thread so far is that each and every wanabee is in a different situation from the next one. In other words, some can afford to wait (they may be younger), some can't (they may be on the wrong side of 35 and have a new house/wife/young kids/a mortgage etc.) and by the time the airlines have been forced to change their approach to type ratings (no doubt they will only do so slow and reluctantly), these guys/gals feel (rightly or not) that they will be past their sell by date (most airlines having a moving scale of age vs. experience these days). Some have contacts within the airline industry (hopefully the right ones), some don't and feel that the only way to get on the first rung of the ladder is to get the rating; some have the spare cash or are willing to borrow yet again, some don't (or won't).
Remember that if you ask someone on the Continent how much it costs to get from zero to flight deck, they will probably answer something in the order of £75,000, since they include the price of a rating. The reason? Bonds ARE illegal there, so the airlines won't even answer them unless they have a rating...
Also, why should a regional/cargo operator be willing to fork out the price of a TR when they know damn well that they are at the start of the food chain and that most of their pilots will have left for pastures anew within a few years' time?
True, nobody should have to pay for a heavy jet type rating at their expense (and certainly not without the promise of a job thereafter), but some guys/gals I work with have done precisely that and walked into a job with a well-know low-cost operator (not FR) right after it. They probably think (rightly, in my opinion) that it WAS money well spent...
Cheers
Remember that if you ask someone on the Continent how much it costs to get from zero to flight deck, they will probably answer something in the order of £75,000, since they include the price of a rating. The reason? Bonds ARE illegal there, so the airlines won't even answer them unless they have a rating...
Also, why should a regional/cargo operator be willing to fork out the price of a TR when they know damn well that they are at the start of the food chain and that most of their pilots will have left for pastures anew within a few years' time?
True, nobody should have to pay for a heavy jet type rating at their expense (and certainly not without the promise of a job thereafter), but some guys/gals I work with have done precisely that and walked into a job with a well-know low-cost operator (not FR) right after it. They probably think (rightly, in my opinion) that it WAS money well spent...
Cheers
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they know some pilots have enough money to pay their type...it is all about money. If you want fly a jet, find he money or say goodbye to the aviation business.
it is simply digusting but it is like that, it is a fact!
and soon, a type rating will be a minimum requirement to apply.(it is already)
if you consider a career in aviation, ad 50% after your ATP frozen.
(100'000 euro???or 125000$? sounds correct?)
if you can not find this money, I would suggest you to do another job because by the time you finish your training (in 2 years), it will be 200'000 euro.
(probably we will have to be rated on 2-3 planes in same time)
it is simply digusting but it is like that, it is a fact!
and soon, a type rating will be a minimum requirement to apply.(it is already)
if you consider a career in aviation, ad 50% after your ATP frozen.
(100'000 euro???or 125000$? sounds correct?)
if you can not find this money, I would suggest you to do another job because by the time you finish your training (in 2 years), it will be 200'000 euro.
(probably we will have to be rated on 2-3 planes in same time)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Europe
Age: 49
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bull****, you cannot be rated on more than one type under JAR.
Besides even if you hold a rating the company still has to do the base and line training and all that stuff, but if there is people capable of being silly enough to pay for a useless rating with no job at the end they can go ahead, it is their money.
A rating with no hours is nothing, that is a fact.
Besides even if you hold a rating the company still has to do the base and line training and all that stuff, but if there is people capable of being silly enough to pay for a useless rating with no job at the end they can go ahead, it is their money.
A rating with no hours is nothing, that is a fact.