I will NOT pay for a T/R
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Skyman,
I can understand your venting spleen.
In the same boat myself!
It is the old paradox of experience vs jobs
but if you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between shee1t and syphalus in the dictionary.
Look at the Balpa website and sign up for the EOC. Apparently a few low hours types like ourselves were taken on last year directly from the conference.
good luck and stay frosty.
all good things...
regards from the kitchin
I can understand your venting spleen.
In the same boat myself!
It is the old paradox of experience vs jobs
but if you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between shee1t and syphalus in the dictionary.
Look at the Balpa website and sign up for the EOC. Apparently a few low hours types like ourselves were taken on last year directly from the conference.
good luck and stay frosty.
all good things...
regards from the kitchin
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Skyman
I can understand your frustration but that last post was not that becomming of an airline pilot or a potential future airline captain. If it was a bad day then that may well be forgivable but if it is your true feelings then think again about this career as you will probably have a heart attack before you get a job.
Come on i waited for well over 5 years for a job and probably have enough PFO's to crush you but i and others i know like me never sank so low. Rise above it and lets put this one down to experience.
A good pilot finds another way in the face adversity to achieve the objective (Sioux City DC10....ie. the right stuff) and you will to if you really want it.
Good luck and i hope happier times are nearby.
I can understand your frustration but that last post was not that becomming of an airline pilot or a potential future airline captain. If it was a bad day then that may well be forgivable but if it is your true feelings then think again about this career as you will probably have a heart attack before you get a job.
Come on i waited for well over 5 years for a job and probably have enough PFO's to crush you but i and others i know like me never sank so low. Rise above it and lets put this one down to experience.
A good pilot finds another way in the face adversity to achieve the objective (Sioux City DC10....ie. the right stuff) and you will to if you really want it.
Good luck and i hope happier times are nearby.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Just back on the subject for a minute before the inevitable thread creep again. I remember, only a few short years ago, when I started PPRuNe-ing (’99 it was) that there was a huge furore about bonding. There were threads galore bemoaning the fact that it wasn’t fair to tie people down in a free market, and that we, the poor old pilots shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences if a better job came along and we had to pay to break the bond!
Many a person (who tended to already have a job) said “don’t join the company if they bond you, there are plenty of those that don’t, the T’s & C’s are good enough to make you want to stay”
Sadly the wannabe pilot workforce capitulated and bonding then became the norm, and guess what, T’s & C’s were eroded…………… It’s a shame we can’t resurrect some of those threads just to see what some of the then Wannabes, now Jet Jockeys had to say on the subject. My guess is that memories are short!
Now what’s happening? Well we’re in the middle of a metaphorical mudslide. Bonding was the first few stones tumbling down the slope, well SSTR’s are the avalanche of mud, trees and any other debris caught up in the landslide. Continue with the madness and the erosion of the T’s and C’s will be irreversible and complete.
When I read one of the numerous posts saying “being a pilot ain’t what it used to be” I feel like screaming “why didn’t you do something about it when you had the chance??”
And I say to those wannabes of today, ”don’t feed the landslide, please”
Many a person (who tended to already have a job) said “don’t join the company if they bond you, there are plenty of those that don’t, the T’s & C’s are good enough to make you want to stay”
Sadly the wannabe pilot workforce capitulated and bonding then became the norm, and guess what, T’s & C’s were eroded…………… It’s a shame we can’t resurrect some of those threads just to see what some of the then Wannabes, now Jet Jockeys had to say on the subject. My guess is that memories are short!
Now what’s happening? Well we’re in the middle of a metaphorical mudslide. Bonding was the first few stones tumbling down the slope, well SSTR’s are the avalanche of mud, trees and any other debris caught up in the landslide. Continue with the madness and the erosion of the T’s and C’s will be irreversible and complete.
When I read one of the numerous posts saying “being a pilot ain’t what it used to be” I feel like screaming “why didn’t you do something about it when you had the chance??”
And I say to those wannabes of today, ”don’t feed the landslide, please”
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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What a jolly well written post Snigs.
Shame there is no signature line anymore other wise I would make this my signature
Shame there is no signature line anymore other wise I would make this my signature
And I say to those wannabes of today, ”don’t feed the landslide, please”
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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As I have said before the MCC is a perfect example of how things become ingrained in the "system" by companies that make a quick buck out of people's desire to become a pilot.
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Ok. Which operators if any DO NOT need an MCC. Then again with my interpersonal skills I might be better suited to single crew IFR, particularly at night so I can take the bag off without scaring anyone.
TTFN DD
TTFN DD
I agree with Snigs but "don't feed the landslide?" How are low-hour abinitios going to get a foot in the door otherwise? Should they refuse any jobs that require a bond or SSTR? I wish it were that easy.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Flypuppy's point being here (I believe) is that MCC is an integral part of Type Rating Training on a multi crew aircraft, and thus should be supplied at the employers expense.
But, what happened was a few companies did a bit of scaremongering and made money out of gullible wannabes by saying that airlines wouldn't employ you if you didn't have an MCC certificate. What they didn't tell you about is that most companies want an MCC course done which mirrors their own SOP's.
At the very least (and I'm not even happy about saying this) an airline should offer you a job on the condition that you buy an MCC at XYZ company, then it's more of an investment!
But, what happened was a few companies did a bit of scaremongering and made money out of gullible wannabes by saying that airlines wouldn't employ you if you didn't have an MCC certificate. What they didn't tell you about is that most companies want an MCC course done which mirrors their own SOP's.
At the very least (and I'm not even happy about saying this) an airline should offer you a job on the condition that you buy an MCC at XYZ company, then it's more of an investment!
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Snigs, I can dig the " At the very least....." comment at the end there, however when we read so much about the numbers of CVs passing the Chief Pilots desk, any excuse to bin may be taken and unfortunately if a company stipulates the MCC as part of the minimums you run the risk of being filed under 'bin' before you start. Catch 22 me thinks.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Yup DriverDriver, sadly utopia doesn't exist 
Note:In the light of all of the recent whinging, all wannabes will be beaten with a stick until moral improves!!
Now then all ....... don't feed the landslide, please!
Note:In the light of all of the recent whinging, all wannabes will be beaten with a stick until moral improves!!
Now then all ....... don't feed the landslide, please!
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Snigs,
With regard to your comment about Wannabes being beaten with a stick.......Will that be with the company stick or do we have to self sponsor our own!!!
With regard to your comment about Wannabes being beaten with a stick.......Will that be with the company stick or do we have to self sponsor our own!!!
Master Baiter
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Snigs, yah but .. who you gonna pick to be the first to stand up and say 'SCHTOP, SCHLOW DOWN, I wont pay for a type rating'?
You paid for an instructors rating, just so you could get more hours than me, didn't you? Plus you didn't buy me a cider in Bristol so may you drive a tractor in 'OO Ar' land forever.
However, you're right in a way, there has to be a stop somewhere.
Pupps, yeh, you frustrated CPL! OK, well, hold up that brothel in Rotterdam and then you'll have the lolly for your IR .. do the condom machine as well and we'll have enough to get you your P..C Aviation 747 rating for ..rgo .ux
Scroggs is right too .. I mean, who would have thought being and airline pilot would become so grubby as to having to pay for a cup of tea. Paying through the nose for a rating and then being treated like a ill trained baboon seems to be the way it's going unless people stand up for themselves.
Though they do have golden spoons for their tea on Virgin flightdecks
I know, cos I have licked them on the upper deck galley!
I'm not against buying a TP rating, say if it's a small outfit, .. what raises an eyebrow on me is bods paying Astreaus for a rating, then 500 hrs line training. Effectively doing themselves and others out of a job .. while flooding the market with low hr 737 rated pilots who couldn't afford the 100 or 500 hr line training
Flaps to 60 .. yep, I'm starting to get my first PFO's, I know how you must have felt .. the best one I've had so far is from Logi bear, badly printed card, wrongly addressed and my name wrongly spelt .. sweet
Skyman, at least they're repling to you!
You paid for an instructors rating, just so you could get more hours than me, didn't you? Plus you didn't buy me a cider in Bristol so may you drive a tractor in 'OO Ar' land forever.
However, you're right in a way, there has to be a stop somewhere.
Pupps, yeh, you frustrated CPL! OK, well, hold up that brothel in Rotterdam and then you'll have the lolly for your IR .. do the condom machine as well and we'll have enough to get you your P..C Aviation 747 rating for ..rgo .ux
Scroggs is right too .. I mean, who would have thought being and airline pilot would become so grubby as to having to pay for a cup of tea. Paying through the nose for a rating and then being treated like a ill trained baboon seems to be the way it's going unless people stand up for themselves.
Though they do have golden spoons for their tea on Virgin flightdecks
I know, cos I have licked them on the upper deck galley!I'm not against buying a TP rating, say if it's a small outfit, .. what raises an eyebrow on me is bods paying Astreaus for a rating, then 500 hrs line training. Effectively doing themselves and others out of a job .. while flooding the market with low hr 737 rated pilots who couldn't afford the 100 or 500 hr line training
Flaps to 60 .. yep, I'm starting to get my first PFO's, I know how you must have felt .. the best one I've had so far is from Logi bear, badly printed card, wrongly addressed and my name wrongly spelt .. sweet
Skyman, at least they're repling to you!
I don't think bonding was something new for the late 90's - it had been an industry fact for decades.
In the early 90's recession plenty of people were paying to go on British Midlands 737 self sponsored type rating course. They are nothing new.
They are more numerous now but then easyJet and Ryanair didn't exist in the early 90's recession and between them now have about 2,500 pilots.
Therefore the ratio of jet jobs available to self rating jet courses available is probably not that different in historical terms.
Just a thought.
WWW
In the early 90's recession plenty of people were paying to go on British Midlands 737 self sponsored type rating course. They are nothing new.
They are more numerous now but then easyJet and Ryanair didn't exist in the early 90's recession and between them now have about 2,500 pilots.
Therefore the ratio of jet jobs available to self rating jet courses available is probably not that different in historical terms.
Just a thought.
WWW
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What’s the problem. Skyman68 - what are your options. At the moment, in Europe, there are a large amount of self funded type rated pilots with approx. 500 hours, perhaps more after instructing. There are far more without type rating. Therefore, although it's a disgrace, why should any airline pay for your type rating? They don't. Their priority is staying in business and not employing you.
So, consider your options. Either sit back and hold your breath for 5-8 years and see if a pilot shortage arises or can you relocate. I believe, South America and Asia and particularly south east Asia are facing a pilot shortage. How about moving out there for a few years. If your lucky you will land your first RHS and return with 2000-3000hours. Happy days. Then, if you feel homesick, come back and send your very strong and competitive CV out.
Good luck Skyman
Life just isn't fair.
So, consider your options. Either sit back and hold your breath for 5-8 years and see if a pilot shortage arises or can you relocate. I believe, South America and Asia and particularly south east Asia are facing a pilot shortage. How about moving out there for a few years. If your lucky you will land your first RHS and return with 2000-3000hours. Happy days. Then, if you feel homesick, come back and send your very strong and competitive CV out.
Good luck Skyman
Life just isn't fair.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Nearly Man, mate, I bought an Instructors rating because I wanted a taste of the glamour, women, and all that moola. You should see all the women go weak at the knees when I saunter up to them, Templar-esk, and whisper "Hi babe, I'm a flying instructor.........."
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IS SSTR MAKING JOB HUNTING UNFAIR?
No, competition is. Wind back a few years. No EZY/FR, higher fares, higher profits, more willing by airlines to pay for training... but fewer jobs. Now, perversely, we have more jobs available, but lower fares and lower profits/less money. The industry is in a financial crisis, and airlines have to reduce costs just to survive. Which includes everything from fuel bills, to training bills, to coffee(!) bills. Once one airline gets away with making employees/trainees pay for something (eg ATPL, MCC, SSTR, line training, coffee), all the others must follow suit or answer to their shareholders. This suggests that it can only be a matter of time before BA starts SSTRs too - how will that go down?
To see where the future lies, it probably makes sense to look at the US (which has had LCC competition for longer than the UK), rather than look backwards to the UK before LCCs. When you do, you find an industry still in financial crisis, and SSTRs, line training, or pilots spending years in small turboprops (and still paying for ratings) the norm - can any US pilots confirm/deny this? When you see people paying big money to get rated on small turboprops ( http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display ), you realise that the UK job market can still get a lot worse
Its a sad state of affairs, but unless we do away with cheap flights and LCC competition, I cant see how the financial pressures will steady/improve. Perhaps the only answer for wanabees is to pack the bags off to South America, or Asia (if you are not too late already).
SSTR VERSUS INSTRUCTING:
Instructor rating: -£6k
1 year instructor pay (net) +£10k
NET: +£4k, improved job prospects, but may be bonded to recoup cost of TR if get job
SSTR: -£20k
1 year FO pay (net) £25k
NET: +£5k, already in FO job
Okay, this assumes you get a job at the end of an SSTR - topic for debate, I suspect
AGE:
Given many airlines get their FOs to handle the aircraft in an emergency while the captain reasons/act, this mini debate seems false anyway. Perhaps the real issue is ability to act correctly, and in realistic timeframes, under immense stress - which many accident reports show is not related to age at all.
No, competition is. Wind back a few years. No EZY/FR, higher fares, higher profits, more willing by airlines to pay for training... but fewer jobs. Now, perversely, we have more jobs available, but lower fares and lower profits/less money. The industry is in a financial crisis, and airlines have to reduce costs just to survive. Which includes everything from fuel bills, to training bills, to coffee(!) bills. Once one airline gets away with making employees/trainees pay for something (eg ATPL, MCC, SSTR, line training, coffee), all the others must follow suit or answer to their shareholders. This suggests that it can only be a matter of time before BA starts SSTRs too - how will that go down?
To see where the future lies, it probably makes sense to look at the US (which has had LCC competition for longer than the UK), rather than look backwards to the UK before LCCs. When you do, you find an industry still in financial crisis, and SSTRs, line training, or pilots spending years in small turboprops (and still paying for ratings) the norm - can any US pilots confirm/deny this? When you see people paying big money to get rated on small turboprops ( http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display ), you realise that the UK job market can still get a lot worse
Its a sad state of affairs, but unless we do away with cheap flights and LCC competition, I cant see how the financial pressures will steady/improve. Perhaps the only answer for wanabees is to pack the bags off to South America, or Asia (if you are not too late already).
SSTR VERSUS INSTRUCTING:
Instructor rating: -£6k
1 year instructor pay (net) +£10k
NET: +£4k, improved job prospects, but may be bonded to recoup cost of TR if get job
SSTR: -£20k
1 year FO pay (net) £25k
NET: +£5k, already in FO job
Okay, this assumes you get a job at the end of an SSTR - topic for debate, I suspect
AGE:
Given many airlines get their FOs to handle the aircraft in an emergency while the captain reasons/act, this mini debate seems false anyway. Perhaps the real issue is ability to act correctly, and in realistic timeframes, under immense stress - which many accident reports show is not related to age at all.
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"When you see people paying big money to get rated on small turboprops ( http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display ), you realise that the UK job market can still get a lot worse"
Arrowhead, I think £9K for a Kingair rating and 13.5k + VAT for an ATR rating in the UK is pretty expensive already
Ratpup, nice one
Yah Snigs, I know but all your ladiechicks in Somerset smell of manure, have a dead badger hanging out of their pockets and would be impressed by a stick with a ping pong ball stuck on the end
Arrowhead, I think £9K for a Kingair rating and 13.5k + VAT for an ATR rating in the UK is pretty expensive already
Ratpup, nice one
Yah Snigs, I know but all your ladiechicks in Somerset smell of manure, have a dead badger hanging out of their pockets and would be impressed by a stick with a ping pong ball stuck on the end