Oxford APP Training Loan
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Oxford APP Training Loan
There was an earlier thread 'having to pay for a Type Rating as well' which refered to students getting a loan to pay for Oxford training.
I was shocked to hear that about 90% of Oxford students are paying for their training entirely with a loan.
Apprently they pay this back at £650 pcm for the next 11 years!
Is this true and is it really 90% of students?
(Please try and keep replies to these questions and don't start on about different schools and integrated/modular etc)
I was shocked to hear that about 90% of Oxford students are paying for their training entirely with a loan.
Apprently they pay this back at £650 pcm for the next 11 years!
Is this true and is it really 90% of students?
(Please try and keep replies to these questions and don't start on about different schools and integrated/modular etc)
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Certainly these days most students pay for things themselves mainly through I'd guess the proessional studies loans from the HSBC which you state as being 11 years.This is indeed the path I'll be going along on my training route most likely now through Oxford.With regards to the repayments £650 is not the set rate,as with interest rates going up the repayments are going up too!!
Regards
Regards
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Interesting.
Without asking about your personal financial situation, what are these loans secured against? I guess it's a house, but does it tend to be a parent's house?
Also, does Oxford encourage people to take the loan?
Without asking about your personal financial situation, what are these loans secured against? I guess it's a house, but does it tend to be a parent's house?
Also, does Oxford encourage people to take the loan?
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Well for me the loan is the only viable option of gaining a fATPL before I'm 40!! As you say security is required and my own personal situation being one that I'm 22 with a couple of years credit history and no home ownership means my parents going gaurantor on the loan and sercurity being theirs and my home!! Which I'm deeply grateful for towards them in trusting me and allowing me to pursue that dream!!
The loans themselves are based on 2% above the Bank of Englands interest rates and the way it is going the costs will continue to rise.Though I'm sure as hell am going to give the dream a damn good go!!
I havent spoken to Oxford themselves regarding the loans but will be visiting them this Thursday while I'm over to do my Class 1 medical(fingers crossed) and so will no doubt bombard them with questions.
Regards
The loans themselves are based on 2% above the Bank of Englands interest rates and the way it is going the costs will continue to rise.Though I'm sure as hell am going to give the dream a damn good go!!
I havent spoken to Oxford themselves regarding the loans but will be visiting them this Thursday while I'm over to do my Class 1 medical(fingers crossed) and so will no doubt bombard them with questions.
Regards
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Thanks very much for your reply – you are exactly the type of person I had in mind when I said I was shocked about these loans.
There is nothing wrong with someone looking towards a future in any profession but a loan of this size must be considered very carefully. There is no guarantee of work once qualified and yet this is a huge repayment commitment.
I am very concerned about people being sold a ‘dream’ which is so expensive. I know the vast majority of students commit themselves to the training and will pass. However, there is a big difference between 18 months hard work to pass a course and 11 years to repay it.
It is all too easy to buy into a ‘dream’, but in your early 20s it is very difficult to know what career path to take. From my own experience, there is a great deal of satisfaction in embarking on one profession (non aviation), earning good money, making sound investments and progressing in life. Then being able to walk into Oxford aged 29 with the cash to do the course. Upon graduation I still had the financial stability to remain current etc.
When I did my course most people were in my financial position (whether it be by their own hard work or being fortunate in having money) and so I am surprised and alarmed that so many people are being taken in by this.
It is very simple, don’t buy what you can’t afford. You would be better getting an Aston Martin, at least it would have a residual value in 18 months!
I am afraid that more people will lose their homes than will get a job.
There is nothing wrong with someone looking towards a future in any profession but a loan of this size must be considered very carefully. There is no guarantee of work once qualified and yet this is a huge repayment commitment.
I am very concerned about people being sold a ‘dream’ which is so expensive. I know the vast majority of students commit themselves to the training and will pass. However, there is a big difference between 18 months hard work to pass a course and 11 years to repay it.
It is all too easy to buy into a ‘dream’, but in your early 20s it is very difficult to know what career path to take. From my own experience, there is a great deal of satisfaction in embarking on one profession (non aviation), earning good money, making sound investments and progressing in life. Then being able to walk into Oxford aged 29 with the cash to do the course. Upon graduation I still had the financial stability to remain current etc.
When I did my course most people were in my financial position (whether it be by their own hard work or being fortunate in having money) and so I am surprised and alarmed that so many people are being taken in by this.
It is very simple, don’t buy what you can’t afford. You would be better getting an Aston Martin, at least it would have a residual value in 18 months!
I am afraid that more people will lose their homes than will get a job.
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Hey guys,
I can shed some light on the matter after being in touch with OAT regarding financial side of things.
Firstly it must be said that each individuals circumstances are different therefore the loan entitlement etc will be different from one person to the next.
However i understand that most people will have to
- Have a deposit equal to 10% of what they want to borrow.
- They will also need to secure 50% of the loan amount. This is usually done through a house of other valuable assets. Majority of younger peeps get their parents to sign the contract for this bit.
Like i said though the above depends on circumstances but i'm not sure HSBC borrow the whole amount unless you can secure it whole with a mortgage etc. I'm off to OAT this weekend so will ask more then.
Hope this helps shed light on the matter,
Ian
I can shed some light on the matter after being in touch with OAT regarding financial side of things.
Firstly it must be said that each individuals circumstances are different therefore the loan entitlement etc will be different from one person to the next.
However i understand that most people will have to
- Have a deposit equal to 10% of what they want to borrow.
- They will also need to secure 50% of the loan amount. This is usually done through a house of other valuable assets. Majority of younger peeps get their parents to sign the contract for this bit.
Like i said though the above depends on circumstances but i'm not sure HSBC borrow the whole amount unless you can secure it whole with a mortgage etc. I'm off to OAT this weekend so will ask more then.
Hope this helps shed light on the matter,
Ian
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Thing is I have to say though Reality-check is I have worked my ass off.Went out and got a job working at an Airport.Learning much from ground crew and pilots alike.Saved got my PPL and am off to hour build.All of the hours and back breaking labour I do I ain't being "sold a dream" and as for not knowing the career path,well i and I'm sure many other would argue this.I've considered other careers and gone and got qaulifications to boot incase I never could be a pilot.Aswell as this once I finish training if it means working in an office til I get that job I've alweays wanted so be it.Personally your comments are somewhat offensive.Your pigeon holing everyone who takes out loans as being idiots who dont know what their doing.
I'm not being taken in by anything
Regards
I'm not being taken in by anything
Regards
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I can probably add my 2p worth to this...
I have a loan to start on the APP course at Oxford - there is no way anyone could borrow the full amount to attend the course as the max borrowings on the HSBC professional studies loan is 50k. Therefore, students will need to have at least 20k saved/parental help to attend the course once living is taken into account. On the current interest rates the repayments work out at around £610 (though can't be sure as I'm not borrowing this amount). Rate is variable of course so who knows what could happen over 11 years - they could go up or down...
As for security, it seems most of the students at places like OAT, Cabair, Jerez don't have properties so parents tend to put their house up as security. HSBC will also consider life policies and public shares for security.
Like me, I am sure they all have their reasons for taking loans of this size. I don't think the 90% figure is far off from what I have seen at OAT and Cabair....
I have a loan to start on the APP course at Oxford - there is no way anyone could borrow the full amount to attend the course as the max borrowings on the HSBC professional studies loan is 50k. Therefore, students will need to have at least 20k saved/parental help to attend the course once living is taken into account. On the current interest rates the repayments work out at around £610 (though can't be sure as I'm not borrowing this amount). Rate is variable of course so who knows what could happen over 11 years - they could go up or down...
As for security, it seems most of the students at places like OAT, Cabair, Jerez don't have properties so parents tend to put their house up as security. HSBC will also consider life policies and public shares for security.
Like me, I am sure they all have their reasons for taking loans of this size. I don't think the 90% figure is far off from what I have seen at OAT and Cabair....
Last edited by London Girl; 20th Aug 2004 at 09:20.
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EGAC_Ramper there is nothing offensive with ‘reality check’s post he has given some good advice about the amount of debt people are taking on before starting a course, maybe you should have a search on these pages for a post about people going bankrupt after finishing an airline course because they couldn’t finding the well paid dream job and the only work they could find was low paid none aviation job.
At this moment in time I think it’s reckless to undertake a loan of 70k plus secured on your family home, with some say up to 1500 low hour pilots chasing the same jobs, now if you had earned and saved most of the course money before starting a course and you only had a smallish loan then it would be a fair gamble but to face £700 per month loan payments after finishing a course could well destroy your life.
Good luck, you’ll need it on these terms.
At this moment in time I think it’s reckless to undertake a loan of 70k plus secured on your family home, with some say up to 1500 low hour pilots chasing the same jobs, now if you had earned and saved most of the course money before starting a course and you only had a smallish loan then it would be a fair gamble but to face £700 per month loan payments after finishing a course could well destroy your life.
Good luck, you’ll need it on these terms.
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London Girl - Thanks for your post.
I suppose there have always been people taking a loan for training, but 90% of students seems incredibly high. 90% of students will not get a suitable job to repay it.
As you are about to embark on this route perhaps you can enlighten me?
Are training providers advising people to take out a loan?
I suppose there have always been people taking a loan for training, but 90% of students seems incredibly high. 90% of students will not get a suitable job to repay it.
As you are about to embark on this route perhaps you can enlighten me?
Are training providers advising people to take out a loan?
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reality check
I agree 90% seems high, and you're right in the current climate not all of these will get a job to be able to make the repayments!
I can't speak for everyone who takes a large loan - I am 27, have a very good degree, postgrad qualifications and am qualified in a professional capacity, which I can always return to on a salary of c.£70k rising to well over £100k within 2 years (yes - most people think I'm mad leaving it too!). So I know that even if I don't get a job with the airlines, I have a fall back option.
However, I think I am in the minority - at the schools I visted I met many 18, 19 year olds fresh out of school. They are taking a much greater risk by not having a Plan B. Personally I wouldn't have done it this way.
As for the schools - the don't 'encourage' anyone to take the loan. They didn't enquire into my financial circumstances and certainly didn't pressure me to take a loan, but they did offer me a standard business plan to help me get a loan if I required. At the end of the day these schools are businesses and number 1 aim is to make money! So who can blame them for doing their best to get students? However, as for OAT they put all potential APP students through a selection process, so are only offering financial help to students they think will make the grade.
It just seems in this industry, people want it so much, no person or school needs to encourage anyone to take a loan - they will do it anyway!
I agree 90% seems high, and you're right in the current climate not all of these will get a job to be able to make the repayments!
I can't speak for everyone who takes a large loan - I am 27, have a very good degree, postgrad qualifications and am qualified in a professional capacity, which I can always return to on a salary of c.£70k rising to well over £100k within 2 years (yes - most people think I'm mad leaving it too!). So I know that even if I don't get a job with the airlines, I have a fall back option.
However, I think I am in the minority - at the schools I visted I met many 18, 19 year olds fresh out of school. They are taking a much greater risk by not having a Plan B. Personally I wouldn't have done it this way.
As for the schools - the don't 'encourage' anyone to take the loan. They didn't enquire into my financial circumstances and certainly didn't pressure me to take a loan, but they did offer me a standard business plan to help me get a loan if I required. At the end of the day these schools are businesses and number 1 aim is to make money! So who can blame them for doing their best to get students? However, as for OAT they put all potential APP students through a selection process, so are only offering financial help to students they think will make the grade.
It just seems in this industry, people want it so much, no person or school needs to encourage anyone to take a loan - they will do it anyway!
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London Girl
Just an idea, but given you current salary around the c £70k mark, why don't you just knuckle down, cut back on outgoings, and save £20-30k over the next 12 months. This will mean a far reduced loan to repay over the next 10+ years. Plus if it all fails, you've got one year more of experience in another professional industry to fall back on?
I've just done this for 2 years and given the current climate it will be a relief to finish my modular training with no or little debt.
esvdx
I've just done this for 2 years and given the current climate it will be a relief to finish my modular training with no or little debt.
esvdx
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Yeah, I've got to agree with the last poster...work an extra year and save the dosh (at least some of it)....I'm not sure there is much point in rushing to get qualified at the moment.
Also take into account 1 years loss of earnings...and that adds to the ATPL price!
You would have to be on a pretty good salary to pay back £650 per month for the next 11 years...maybe I'm just a wuss when it come to owing the bank money.
GQ
Also take into account 1 years loss of earnings...and that adds to the ATPL price!
You would have to be on a pretty good salary to pay back £650 per month for the next 11 years...maybe I'm just a wuss when it come to owing the bank money.
GQ
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I've been here for 3 years saving around 30k. And that's enough! You're right I could just knuckle down for another couple of years and save double but I just feel so tired of it all. I hate living in the city and do feel that at 27, will be qualifying at 29, I don't want to wait much longer. I know it's possible to get a job much older than 29/30 but at the moment with no 'ties' so to speak it seems like a good time to do it.
And yes - my quote of £550 ish for the loan I am taking seems a lot! I can't imagine what £650 would feel like!
And yes - my quote of £550 ish for the loan I am taking seems a lot! I can't imagine what £650 would feel like!
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Why not take the hard earned £30k and start a modular course? Not starting a Integrated vs. Modular discussion but..... as mentioned all around PPRuNe you could finish with a frozen ATPL for under £40k. The repayments on the difference would surely be much easier to manage if the job situation looks tough on completion?
Remember you can do modular CPL / IR at all the 'flash' schools (Oxford, Cabair, Jerez etc...) and save some useful money for that Type Rating it seems we all now need to fund!
esvdx
Remember you can do modular CPL / IR at all the 'flash' schools (Oxford, Cabair, Jerez etc...) and save some useful money for that Type Rating it seems we all now need to fund!
esvdx
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London Girl,
I was in exactly the same position as you. I was same age, worked in the City and had about 30k too. I figured just what esvdx has said and now I'm getting towards the last few months of flying and not regretting my decision. I will have my fATPL and only be in a small amount of debt. Maybe 5/6k max... Nothing I've seen so far has led me to believe I will have gained much by doing the integrated course.
B
I was in exactly the same position as you. I was same age, worked in the City and had about 30k too. I figured just what esvdx has said and now I'm getting towards the last few months of flying and not regretting my decision. I will have my fATPL and only be in a small amount of debt. Maybe 5/6k max... Nothing I've seen so far has led me to believe I will have gained much by doing the integrated course.
B
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London girl – thanks for your replies, you are going about things in a well considered way. My concern is with the 18, 19, 20 year olds you mentioned. Taking a 60k loan for anything without knowing how it will be repaid is insane, particularly as more money is required after graduation to remain current etc. It is obvious to me that these people are stepping into a potential financial disaster.
I know it is just business for the training providers but it is sad they are so willing to take advantage of young people in what should be a responsible and well regulated industry.
I know it is just business for the training providers but it is sad they are so willing to take advantage of young people in what should be a responsible and well regulated industry.
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Thanks for the advice - I listened hard to all of the arguments for and against integrated and modular. I don't want to get into the pro's and con's of each but this is how I made my decision:
The money aspect of going modular certainly appeals! I do know that I prefer a structured course and environment - so that was my main deciding factor. Also my next door neighbour is a training captain and my boyfriend's dad is in recruitment of a major airline (good contacts eh?). Both advised me to go integrated. I know there are benefits of going both ways, but after this advice my decision was made!
I agree it's going to be a lot tougher financially, but I just want to give myself the best start in this career. At the end of the day it may not make a difference, but nobody really knows that for sure - for me it was deciding between the financial risk, or the risk that airlines do really prefer integrated. I went for the latter.
(Speak to me in 2 years tho when the repayments kick in - I may have changed my mind!)
The money aspect of going modular certainly appeals! I do know that I prefer a structured course and environment - so that was my main deciding factor. Also my next door neighbour is a training captain and my boyfriend's dad is in recruitment of a major airline (good contacts eh?). Both advised me to go integrated. I know there are benefits of going both ways, but after this advice my decision was made!
I agree it's going to be a lot tougher financially, but I just want to give myself the best start in this career. At the end of the day it may not make a difference, but nobody really knows that for sure - for me it was deciding between the financial risk, or the risk that airlines do really prefer integrated. I went for the latter.
(Speak to me in 2 years tho when the repayments kick in - I may have changed my mind!)