Airlines looking for pilots.
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Received this private message . At first I thought it was a bit harsh, but now I actually believe this guy! Sensored for the few good guys out there, and I quote:
Edited to remove a message masquerading as something written by someone else but quite obviously written by this poster. If anyone thinks they can get around the requirement to keep posts civil with this sort of amateur behaviour then they had better think twice.
Thats it, had enough of this, signing off for the last time!
Stop winding and get a desent job where you have to think and not just push switches according to a checklist.
Enjoy your holidays!
Edited to remove a message masquerading as something written by someone else but quite obviously written by this poster. If anyone thinks they can get around the requirement to keep posts civil with this sort of amateur behaviour then they had better think twice.
Thats it, had enough of this, signing off for the last time!
Stop winding and get a desent job where you have to think and not just push switches according to a checklist.
Enjoy your holidays!
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What is WINDING??? DESENT??? PAX FIRST THEN SAFETY!!!
It would be so easily to lower myself to your level and rub your nose in it but I am a professional and I enjoy my job. I really do not like people who use these forums as a way to annoy others.
I am so pleased that that was your last post, please do not change your username and return.
Maybe now we can get back to the thread. Please no more replies to AAGG or anyone else of that ilk and they will go away. Let us return to the interesting post that started this thread.
On behalf of all of us professionals, Thank you!
It would be so easily to lower myself to your level and rub your nose in it but I am a professional and I enjoy my job. I really do not like people who use these forums as a way to annoy others.
I am so pleased that that was your last post, please do not change your username and return.
Maybe now we can get back to the thread. Please no more replies to AAGG or anyone else of that ilk and they will go away. Let us return to the interesting post that started this thread.
On behalf of all of us professionals, Thank you!
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The first airline started with one pilot and his passenger. That was between St, Petersburg to Tampa Florida 1st of Jan 1919. The rest is history..if you know what I mean?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
..so he employed a "manager".
His manger told him that if he was going to succeed, he should sell his aeroplane, hand the money from the sale to the manager, and lease a BIGGER aeroplane.
To do this, he would need to carry a minimum of 3 pax...sorry, "customers"..every flight, if he hoped to pay off the aeroplane before his great, great grandchildren died.
And that the manager would double his bonus (equivalent to 1 year's salary) for each hour that ANY aircraft were leased by the new company, due to the amazing accounting procedures!!
But seeing potential conflict between pilot and management, it was decided that there should be an H.R. Department - a "go=between" to smooth things out.
Of course, management decided that THEY would determine WHO would pay the H.R. Dep't, and how they would be paid.
Now, as management and "the pilot" obviously had vested interests as to precisely HOW much they felt they should be paid - and as the HRD needed to be seen as an essentially neutral party - it was felt that an "Accounts Department" should be incorprorated to ensure that any profits over and above "basic operating costs" were administered to the various areas that most needed it. eg. accounting stationery, polish for the accountant's desk, flowers for the Manager's office, flowers for the Manager's wife, flowers for the Manager's confidante, scheduled maintainence for the aeroplane, money for necessary fees and licences, money for lease payments of the aeroplane!!
God we've come a L-O-N-G way since then......haven't we!!!
His manger told him that if he was going to succeed, he should sell his aeroplane, hand the money from the sale to the manager, and lease a BIGGER aeroplane.
To do this, he would need to carry a minimum of 3 pax...sorry, "customers"..every flight, if he hoped to pay off the aeroplane before his great, great grandchildren died.
And that the manager would double his bonus (equivalent to 1 year's salary) for each hour that ANY aircraft were leased by the new company, due to the amazing accounting procedures!!
But seeing potential conflict between pilot and management, it was decided that there should be an H.R. Department - a "go=between" to smooth things out.
Of course, management decided that THEY would determine WHO would pay the H.R. Dep't, and how they would be paid.
Now, as management and "the pilot" obviously had vested interests as to precisely HOW much they felt they should be paid - and as the HRD needed to be seen as an essentially neutral party - it was felt that an "Accounts Department" should be incorprorated to ensure that any profits over and above "basic operating costs" were administered to the various areas that most needed it. eg. accounting stationery, polish for the accountant's desk, flowers for the Manager's office, flowers for the Manager's wife, flowers for the Manager's confidante, scheduled maintainence for the aeroplane, money for necessary fees and licences, money for lease payments of the aeroplane!!
God we've come a L-O-N-G way since then......haven't we!!!
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Who's employing
Push switches according to a checklist? Is this guy serious??
My point in relation to all of the above. A mythical pilot - losing his medical for some reason - could apply for any job in
Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!
( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)
Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???
Surely that says it all.
Now back to the important stuff. Who' employing pilots to keep their pax and multi million dollar airplanes unscratched????
My point in relation to all of the above. A mythical pilot - losing his medical for some reason - could apply for any job in
Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!
( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)
Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???
Surely that says it all.
Now back to the important stuff. Who' employing pilots to keep their pax and multi million dollar airplanes unscratched????
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lokione
come on now,you know full well that many a pilot out there started his career by being a check-in agent or operations controller or in flight planning dept and of course as Cabin Crew( that's flight attendants for you Americans!).Yes,many of us were blessed with exciting jobs in Military or were sponsored by Airlines or simply started as G.A flying instructors but there are plenty of people who do 'make it' after more mundane jobs.Ironically,i think more pilots would fail to make the grade of Cabin Crew than Cabin Crew would make it as pilots,were they given the chance......we're too old,too ugly,too rude and far too intolerent.Could you imagine if we had to be polite to someone like aagg..............see,not possible!
come on now,you know full well that many a pilot out there started his career by being a check-in agent or operations controller or in flight planning dept and of course as Cabin Crew( that's flight attendants for you Americans!).Yes,many of us were blessed with exciting jobs in Military or were sponsored by Airlines or simply started as G.A flying instructors but there are plenty of people who do 'make it' after more mundane jobs.Ironically,i think more pilots would fail to make the grade of Cabin Crew than Cabin Crew would make it as pilots,were they given the chance......we're too old,too ugly,too rude and far too intolerent.Could you imagine if we had to be polite to someone like aagg..............see,not possible!
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Bymonek
I agree there are some pilots who wouldn't make the grade as cabin crew out there.
But when you say that there are plenty of them who would make good pilots if they were given the chance - that seems to imply that "anyone" can be a pilot if some mystical chance was given!
Speaking for myself - I made my own luck! I passed my own exams and flight tests. No one GAVE most of us a chance mate...we had to work bloody hard to get here and to maintain our spots.
Incidentally, at last check I wasnt too old, ugly or rude to be Cabin crew myself and it would be a great wake up call for a few of us to have a bit of work experience down the back for a change!!
I prepare to be howled down!!
But when you say that there are plenty of them who would make good pilots if they were given the chance - that seems to imply that "anyone" can be a pilot if some mystical chance was given!
Speaking for myself - I made my own luck! I passed my own exams and flight tests. No one GAVE most of us a chance mate...we had to work bloody hard to get here and to maintain our spots.
Incidentally, at last check I wasnt too old, ugly or rude to be Cabin crew myself and it would be a great wake up call for a few of us to have a bit of work experience down the back for a change!!
I prepare to be howled down!!
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lokione
I'm sure you're right. All those guys who moan about how much worse it is to be a pilot than anything else clearly were rather more fortunate than most in their other jobs. Some people really do need a healthy dose of reality.
That said, yes the traditionally rather good T+C's are being eroded. Even though I'm still awaiting that first foothold in the industry, and it's been 2 years since I qualified, I won't (and can't anyway) buy my way into a position by paying for my own type rating. I frankly have more self respect. If a few more were prepared to do the same, rather than roll over and play dead for the bosses, then perhaps it might all be different.
I'm sure you're right. All those guys who moan about how much worse it is to be a pilot than anything else clearly were rather more fortunate than most in their other jobs. Some people really do need a healthy dose of reality.
That said, yes the traditionally rather good T+C's are being eroded. Even though I'm still awaiting that first foothold in the industry, and it's been 2 years since I qualified, I won't (and can't anyway) buy my way into a position by paying for my own type rating. I frankly have more self respect. If a few more were prepared to do the same, rather than roll over and play dead for the bosses, then perhaps it might all be different.
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Air India SUCKS!!
Just to add to your note about Air India hiring 747 drivers.Their management SUCKS, pilots are overworked and grossly underpaid.Infact many of their pilots are contemplating leaving and going to other airlines.
Besides , the Indian Government does not have a clear policy on hiring foreign labour in state Owned Airlines.A definite NO for expats.
Besides , the Indian Government does not have a clear policy on hiring foreign labour in state Owned Airlines.A definite NO for expats.
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This aagg individual has highlighted a very valid point that is one of the major obstacles that is contributing to the downward spiral that the aviating profession is facing these days. If we as a profession desire to halt or even reverse this spiral, then this issue has to be considered - how? I have no idea!!
I am spouting on about the public perception of us.
Sure, aagg is just a little person and his opinion does not matter, but importantly, his opinion is representative. If his ideas are what joe public thinks, the same joe public that travels as our customers, then we are in trouble my friends.
The days have definitely passed where we as a group are considered as 'the dashing knights of the sky', and rightly so. We are just another professional group quietly getting on with our job. The problem is that our employers have become so focused on driving down costs, that our managers (who are increasingly of the bean counting genre) resent us. We are a cost, a large cost, but a cost that they cannot do without. And this they do not like at all. The underlying theme of the last many years has been to chip away at and erode that mystique that delivered high rewards for the few. We have now become a labour unit, a cost that offsets profit. Nothing wrong with that, its reality - but its gone too far. We are despised by management in general, and our customers (who dont know any better, how could they) think like aagg.
Take the example very recently, Mr Mike O'Leary, the hero bringing air travel to the masses. Good on him, he and the others like him have created many jobs for those that may not have had the opportunity and strapped many of us into the front of a nice jet. However, his very public statement that "pilots are the most cossetted employee group" was listened to and absorbed by those same travelling masses. If he was unhindered by the regulators or unions, how far would he and others go to make his pilot group more productive? He would keep pushing, after all, pilots are expendable, there are plenty more around, they dont know how easy they have it he would say. Might be a different story when the inevitable occurs and he starts to lose jets. Likely not though, just blame the pilots.
What about on TV lately. I am seeing multiple documentaries of air disasters, good prime time viewing they are. These productions are designed for mass viewing, with their actors doing their best at cockpit reconstructions. They are not reports. How could they possibly re create the mayhem and chaos that some of these crews faced. Impossible. The crews are not always painted in a good light, sometimes unfairly and sometimes unintentionally. What does joe public think when he turns off the telly?
What about the passengers on the BA flight that flew through the volcanic ash in Indonesia, or the survivors of the Sioux City incident. I guarantee they do not think their pilots were over paid button pushers. Granted these were high profile incidents, but what of the multitude that the pax are not even aware of - they depart, they arrive, were they aware that there was a non normal going on up front? What about all the MEL dispatches. What would the pax think if they knew their big bird was not operating 100%. The boys and girls up front accept it, just get on with the job and cope, and get the pax to where they want to go, and make another dollar for the boss that possibly despises him. Common everyday occurences that aagg and his buddies know nothing of.
My apologies for rambling. But my point is - rather that slag off at aagg and the likes, we should be very concerned and aware of the common attitude out there that exists toward us.
What to do about it? I dont know.
I am spouting on about the public perception of us.
Sure, aagg is just a little person and his opinion does not matter, but importantly, his opinion is representative. If his ideas are what joe public thinks, the same joe public that travels as our customers, then we are in trouble my friends.
The days have definitely passed where we as a group are considered as 'the dashing knights of the sky', and rightly so. We are just another professional group quietly getting on with our job. The problem is that our employers have become so focused on driving down costs, that our managers (who are increasingly of the bean counting genre) resent us. We are a cost, a large cost, but a cost that they cannot do without. And this they do not like at all. The underlying theme of the last many years has been to chip away at and erode that mystique that delivered high rewards for the few. We have now become a labour unit, a cost that offsets profit. Nothing wrong with that, its reality - but its gone too far. We are despised by management in general, and our customers (who dont know any better, how could they) think like aagg.
Take the example very recently, Mr Mike O'Leary, the hero bringing air travel to the masses. Good on him, he and the others like him have created many jobs for those that may not have had the opportunity and strapped many of us into the front of a nice jet. However, his very public statement that "pilots are the most cossetted employee group" was listened to and absorbed by those same travelling masses. If he was unhindered by the regulators or unions, how far would he and others go to make his pilot group more productive? He would keep pushing, after all, pilots are expendable, there are plenty more around, they dont know how easy they have it he would say. Might be a different story when the inevitable occurs and he starts to lose jets. Likely not though, just blame the pilots.
What about on TV lately. I am seeing multiple documentaries of air disasters, good prime time viewing they are. These productions are designed for mass viewing, with their actors doing their best at cockpit reconstructions. They are not reports. How could they possibly re create the mayhem and chaos that some of these crews faced. Impossible. The crews are not always painted in a good light, sometimes unfairly and sometimes unintentionally. What does joe public think when he turns off the telly?
What about the passengers on the BA flight that flew through the volcanic ash in Indonesia, or the survivors of the Sioux City incident. I guarantee they do not think their pilots were over paid button pushers. Granted these were high profile incidents, but what of the multitude that the pax are not even aware of - they depart, they arrive, were they aware that there was a non normal going on up front? What about all the MEL dispatches. What would the pax think if they knew their big bird was not operating 100%. The boys and girls up front accept it, just get on with the job and cope, and get the pax to where they want to go, and make another dollar for the boss that possibly despises him. Common everyday occurences that aagg and his buddies know nothing of.
My apologies for rambling. But my point is - rather that slag off at aagg and the likes, we should be very concerned and aware of the common attitude out there that exists toward us.
What to do about it? I dont know.
stilljustanothernumber
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Whilst Pprune is a useful tool for us, I think it is also doing us serious damage. Do you see any other profession airing its dirty washing openly on the internet?
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My point in relation to all of the above. A mythical pilot - losing his medical for some reason - could apply for any job in
Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!
( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)
Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???
Surely that says it all.
Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!
( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)
Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???
Surely that says it all.
I work as part of a team, a team of many thousands. I don't go in for all the normal management bull*hit and buzzwords but I do believe that everyone be it Reservations, Baggage Handlers, Operations or Engineers have an equal role to play and should be treated with the same respect.
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Haven't posted for ages but this thread has triggered a bit of emotion so here goes.....
I come from a family where at least one person in the house hold is involved in aviation in one way or another. For example I am a pilot, the old man is an engineer. Despite the jibes at one another ( grease monkey...overpaid button pusher..etc,etc!) we hold a rather healthy respect for one another and our jobs.
The other halves dad is an ATCO, we too have digs at one an other but again, we hold a respect for one another and each others jobs.
Obviously I work with cabin crew, dispatchers etc on a day to day basis. 99.9% of the people I know take their job extremely seriously.
Despite the workload for everyone increasing dramatically over the past couple of years due low cost carriers, cost cutting by other airlines to stay as proffitable as possible etc...etc. I do not know anybody who has let there professional standards slip.
But what is happening, in my opinion anyway, is that management and passengers want something for nothing! Passengers want to pay 20 quid to go to alicante, but they dont want to sit on the aeroplane when they arrive there for 10 minutes waiting for a GPU to be found( due to U/S APU). The problem is that due to the fact that they have paid 20 quid for a ticket, the airlines are pushing the handling agents to provide more service for less money. So they keep staffing levels the same, despite the fact that the amount of traffic they are dealing with has doubled. These people are only human and they cannot be in two places at the same time.So we are left with the scenario of passengers sitting on aeroplane, engines running(with no understanding of how an aeroplane works) waiting to get off. They then start blaming the people in the front line...us!!!
The public deem the circumstances above as unproffesional, and start treating the front line troops as unproffesional. Thus enabling the likes of that p***k that posted earlier, to say what he said.
I am proud to be an airline pilot as I know the exacting standards that I have to meet everyday. I am also fed up of being an airline pilot because of the amount of rubbish I have to deal with on a day to day basis. The amount of mistakes,made by somebody sat behind a desk, that I have to rectify!
The fact that my roster is published as close to legal maximum as possible every month, means that I am constantly having to check that my changes are not illegal duties. As somebody else said earlier there is nobody to cover our arses when it goes wrong....That is why I get paid 50 grand a year!!!
I have sold cars, vacuum cleaners, clothes. Worked in an office and in the open air. None of those jobs was as rewarding as this CAREER that I have dreamt of since I was five.
BUT the dumbing down of the airline industry has been brought about by this something for nothing culture. The next time joe public is sat on an aeroplane winging because their flight is delayed because a member of crew has gone out hours and they have got to wait 2 hours for a replacement. They should remember that if they were prepared to pay a reasonable amount for their ticket, then the company wouldn't be trying to work to such tight margins and their flight may have gone on time!!
I couldn't care less if somebody calls me a glorified bus driver, what I do care about is the fact that we, as proffessionals,have been kicked so much by unproffessionals......that we actually give a s**t about comments like that.!!!!
I am too tired to re read what I have typed and I apologise if it is c**p, but I do feel much better and I hope that I have got my point across!!
Good night!
I come from a family where at least one person in the house hold is involved in aviation in one way or another. For example I am a pilot, the old man is an engineer. Despite the jibes at one another ( grease monkey...overpaid button pusher..etc,etc!) we hold a rather healthy respect for one another and our jobs.
The other halves dad is an ATCO, we too have digs at one an other but again, we hold a respect for one another and each others jobs.
Obviously I work with cabin crew, dispatchers etc on a day to day basis. 99.9% of the people I know take their job extremely seriously.
Despite the workload for everyone increasing dramatically over the past couple of years due low cost carriers, cost cutting by other airlines to stay as proffitable as possible etc...etc. I do not know anybody who has let there professional standards slip.
But what is happening, in my opinion anyway, is that management and passengers want something for nothing! Passengers want to pay 20 quid to go to alicante, but they dont want to sit on the aeroplane when they arrive there for 10 minutes waiting for a GPU to be found( due to U/S APU). The problem is that due to the fact that they have paid 20 quid for a ticket, the airlines are pushing the handling agents to provide more service for less money. So they keep staffing levels the same, despite the fact that the amount of traffic they are dealing with has doubled. These people are only human and they cannot be in two places at the same time.So we are left with the scenario of passengers sitting on aeroplane, engines running(with no understanding of how an aeroplane works) waiting to get off. They then start blaming the people in the front line...us!!!
The public deem the circumstances above as unproffesional, and start treating the front line troops as unproffesional. Thus enabling the likes of that p***k that posted earlier, to say what he said.
I am proud to be an airline pilot as I know the exacting standards that I have to meet everyday. I am also fed up of being an airline pilot because of the amount of rubbish I have to deal with on a day to day basis. The amount of mistakes,made by somebody sat behind a desk, that I have to rectify!
The fact that my roster is published as close to legal maximum as possible every month, means that I am constantly having to check that my changes are not illegal duties. As somebody else said earlier there is nobody to cover our arses when it goes wrong....That is why I get paid 50 grand a year!!!
I have sold cars, vacuum cleaners, clothes. Worked in an office and in the open air. None of those jobs was as rewarding as this CAREER that I have dreamt of since I was five.
BUT the dumbing down of the airline industry has been brought about by this something for nothing culture. The next time joe public is sat on an aeroplane winging because their flight is delayed because a member of crew has gone out hours and they have got to wait 2 hours for a replacement. They should remember that if they were prepared to pay a reasonable amount for their ticket, then the company wouldn't be trying to work to such tight margins and their flight may have gone on time!!
I couldn't care less if somebody calls me a glorified bus driver, what I do care about is the fact that we, as proffessionals,have been kicked so much by unproffessionals......that we actually give a s**t about comments like that.!!!!
I am too tired to re read what I have typed and I apologise if it is c**p, but I do feel much better and I hope that I have got my point across!!
Good night!
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To add to the list of Airlines needing pilots in the not too distant future:
1) Asiana - B744 and B777
2) Korean Air - B737NG, B744 and B777
3) Air China - B744 and B777
I'm sure there will be more mainland China airlines who will start to recruit shortly. Contact the agencies if your interested.
And there's always Air Atlanta - but their pay package sucks!
1) Asiana - B744 and B777
2) Korean Air - B737NG, B744 and B777
3) Air China - B744 and B777
I'm sure there will be more mainland China airlines who will start to recruit shortly. Contact the agencies if your interested.
And there's always Air Atlanta - but their pay package sucks!
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Superb!!
Couldnt have said it better JJ 737. That sums it up entirely.
srs what ......................... careful what you say mate. I have been in all those positions myself in the past and can assure you that I have no lack of respect for anyone of them. But the weight of responsibility of lives rests on the pilots shoulders in addition to carrying out their normal duties. It is a large burden to bear which is not born by any of those aforementioned taskers! I stand by my comments completely.
I apologise to those that wish to simply return to who the hell is employing!!
So - Anyone got any info on Air Japan and their Hawaii jobs? I believe a green card is required??
Cheers Loki
srs what ......................... careful what you say mate. I have been in all those positions myself in the past and can assure you that I have no lack of respect for anyone of them. But the weight of responsibility of lives rests on the pilots shoulders in addition to carrying out their normal duties. It is a large burden to bear which is not born by any of those aforementioned taskers! I stand by my comments completely.
I apologise to those that wish to simply return to who the hell is employing!!
So - Anyone got any info on Air Japan and their Hawaii jobs? I believe a green card is required??
Cheers Loki
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JJ 737 you hit the nail squarely on the head. I spent two years working at STN whilst I was Distance Learning. The second year was as a Dispatcher and it was readily apparent to me that there was no money in Ground Handling anymore. Not enough staff could be taken on to handle the flights - its a cut throat business out there.
It was not uncommon in the peak evening rush to be dispatching two or sumtimes three flights at once. It was not uncommon for the dispatcher to have to assist with boarding control as we had a shortage of gate staff. Check in closing late because of shortage of check in staff. But everyone did the job professionally and during summer 2004 Stansted was Air Berlin's best performing outstation in terms of percentage of delays that were attributed to the handling agent.
But sadly airline management and passengers are sumtimes all too unaware of the lengths people go to in order to get the aeroplane away on time. When your soaked to the skin on a freezing winters morning in the driving rain, dispatching two aircraft at once, rarely on stands near each other, for £5 an hour.
When I finish my CPL / IR shortly one thing I will not be doing is going back to that kind of job for that kind of money. Been there, ticked the box, learnt the lessons.
It was not uncommon in the peak evening rush to be dispatching two or sumtimes three flights at once. It was not uncommon for the dispatcher to have to assist with boarding control as we had a shortage of gate staff. Check in closing late because of shortage of check in staff. But everyone did the job professionally and during summer 2004 Stansted was Air Berlin's best performing outstation in terms of percentage of delays that were attributed to the handling agent.
But sadly airline management and passengers are sumtimes all too unaware of the lengths people go to in order to get the aeroplane away on time. When your soaked to the skin on a freezing winters morning in the driving rain, dispatching two aircraft at once, rarely on stands near each other, for £5 an hour.
When I finish my CPL / IR shortly one thing I will not be doing is going back to that kind of job for that kind of money. Been there, ticked the box, learnt the lessons.
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timzsta
Please, please reassure me that you really do know how to spell 'sometimes' and that the version in your post is either a joke or some sort of 'text speak' included to enlighten the older readers.
Please, please reassure me that you really do know how to spell 'sometimes' and that the version in your post is either a joke or some sort of 'text speak' included to enlighten the older readers.
If true overseas, it must inspire optimism-but it won't happen for many years in the US. And don't assume that US Part 121 airlines have not hired lots of pilots who are from other countries, i.e., Germany, France, South Africa, Canada, Israel, Netherlands.
By the way, many pilots here have paid for their own training in a Saab 340, Brasilia, CRJ, etc, and and as part of a certain "deal" to tentatively work for a regional company, they all received no type rating. This training took place years ago in the left seat.
If such desperate pilots are available "over there", can borrow piles of cash, and can move anywhere, speak whatever language, then don't expect salaries to go up.
By the way, many pilots here have paid for their own training in a Saab 340, Brasilia, CRJ, etc, and and as part of a certain "deal" to tentatively work for a regional company, they all received no type rating. This training took place years ago in the left seat.
If such desperate pilots are available "over there", can borrow piles of cash, and can move anywhere, speak whatever language, then don't expect salaries to go up.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th Aug 2004 at 04:53.
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Sad but true....
Sorry to stay off the main subject of this thread, and continue with the issue of whether pilots are ‘overpaid button pushers’, their respective position within the aviation community, and how this has changed over the years… None of what I have to say is rocket science, just pointing out some truths that are my explanation for where the pilot now stands in this world….
(As a quick aside, so you know where I’m coming from and don’t take me the wrong way: I’ve recently left the aviation game to work for myself in property. And I’m doing very nicely for myself now, both financially and job satisfaction-wise – much better off than before, which is sad, cause I love the business… and yes, I miss the buzz, and hence my continued involvement with likes of pprune as a means of keeping in touch. I was not a pilot, but worked closely with many areas of the game, including airline management, aircraft leasing and even ATC. However, my father is a recently retired B744 pilot, my father-in-law a recently retired A330 pilot, my wife ex cabin crew, and my bro-in-law currently a B777 jock. So I have a reasonable insight to many different aspects of the game.)
The airline industry itself has changed, and it is perhaps this that has caused the erosion of the t’s & c’s as well as the generalised lowered perception of the professionalism of the pilot. With de-regulation and international expansion / integration of societies, there are many more airlines, flying many more a/c and many more pax, to many more destinations worldwide. This has created both relatively speaking many more pilots (which makes them much more common to meet in society, and hence less ‘glam’ and all that goes with it), as well as many more that are either ‘regular’ flyers (up to say, 5 flights per year) as well as many more that are ‘frequent’ flyers (up to say 200+ flights per year). How often do you meet someone who hasn’t flown at least one round trip these days? TV & film has many ‘fly on the wall’ programmes, disaster recreations, and general news items all concentrated solely at the airline business.
So this may explain the latter issue of perception, but the t’s & c’s thing is a result of demand and supply for pilots as a job, as well as for air travel itself.
I grew up with the pilot t’s & c’s at their best. My family were well looked after in all respects. But over the years this changed along with the change in the business. My fathers colleagues were working for much less $$$ than him at the same job, and all the benefits were being eroded each year. The same true across the board, even for non pilots too. The actual work of flying the a/c hasn’t changed too much istelf. You still have the huge responsibility for the magic safety element, but certainly the equipment is much easier for you to use, even if not perfect in design. Pilots also fly more often than they did, ie work harder for the same (or in many/most cases, lower) buck earnt.
There are many many guys & gals out there, who grew up looking up at the glam pilot, who are now wannabees. I was one myself, till medical ruled me out. And whilst there are indeed many more pilot jobs, supply has not kept up with demand. Hence management has been able to chip away.
Combine this with the effects of re-regulated competition and more recently latest wave of LC carriers, and the drive to minimise fares, this has created an even stronger pressure on costs, and inevitably on pilot t’s & c’s.
Unfortunately most management approaches to reducing t’s & c’s quite often seem to lack, either deliberately or not, any sense of either proportion or appropriateness.
Maybe now, and getting back to the thread’s original subject, the worm may be turning slightly… less pilot wannabees, and more airlines needing more a/c needing more pilots…???
Even so I doubt we’ll see the heady days that I witnessed as I grew up! But the same is true for ALL in aviation, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, ground handling, even management themselves! Such a shame….
(As a quick aside, so you know where I’m coming from and don’t take me the wrong way: I’ve recently left the aviation game to work for myself in property. And I’m doing very nicely for myself now, both financially and job satisfaction-wise – much better off than before, which is sad, cause I love the business… and yes, I miss the buzz, and hence my continued involvement with likes of pprune as a means of keeping in touch. I was not a pilot, but worked closely with many areas of the game, including airline management, aircraft leasing and even ATC. However, my father is a recently retired B744 pilot, my father-in-law a recently retired A330 pilot, my wife ex cabin crew, and my bro-in-law currently a B777 jock. So I have a reasonable insight to many different aspects of the game.)
The airline industry itself has changed, and it is perhaps this that has caused the erosion of the t’s & c’s as well as the generalised lowered perception of the professionalism of the pilot. With de-regulation and international expansion / integration of societies, there are many more airlines, flying many more a/c and many more pax, to many more destinations worldwide. This has created both relatively speaking many more pilots (which makes them much more common to meet in society, and hence less ‘glam’ and all that goes with it), as well as many more that are either ‘regular’ flyers (up to say, 5 flights per year) as well as many more that are ‘frequent’ flyers (up to say 200+ flights per year). How often do you meet someone who hasn’t flown at least one round trip these days? TV & film has many ‘fly on the wall’ programmes, disaster recreations, and general news items all concentrated solely at the airline business.
So this may explain the latter issue of perception, but the t’s & c’s thing is a result of demand and supply for pilots as a job, as well as for air travel itself.
I grew up with the pilot t’s & c’s at their best. My family were well looked after in all respects. But over the years this changed along with the change in the business. My fathers colleagues were working for much less $$$ than him at the same job, and all the benefits were being eroded each year. The same true across the board, even for non pilots too. The actual work of flying the a/c hasn’t changed too much istelf. You still have the huge responsibility for the magic safety element, but certainly the equipment is much easier for you to use, even if not perfect in design. Pilots also fly more often than they did, ie work harder for the same (or in many/most cases, lower) buck earnt.
There are many many guys & gals out there, who grew up looking up at the glam pilot, who are now wannabees. I was one myself, till medical ruled me out. And whilst there are indeed many more pilot jobs, supply has not kept up with demand. Hence management has been able to chip away.
Combine this with the effects of re-regulated competition and more recently latest wave of LC carriers, and the drive to minimise fares, this has created an even stronger pressure on costs, and inevitably on pilot t’s & c’s.
Unfortunately most management approaches to reducing t’s & c’s quite often seem to lack, either deliberately or not, any sense of either proportion or appropriateness.
Maybe now, and getting back to the thread’s original subject, the worm may be turning slightly… less pilot wannabees, and more airlines needing more a/c needing more pilots…???
Even so I doubt we’ll see the heady days that I witnessed as I grew up! But the same is true for ALL in aviation, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, ground handling, even management themselves! Such a shame….