Having to pay for Type Ratings as well!
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malcom in the middle
posted 16th August 2004 16:52
right, im off to work now to sit on the left of one of those blokes youve never met
posted 16th August 2004 16:52
right, im off to work now to sit on the left of one of those blokes youve never met
malcom in the middle
posted 16th August 2004 19:17
posted 16th August 2004 19:17
Enjoy the hookers at 120/H, but stop boring us. I think you are just another frustrated wannabee with too much time on your hands pretending to be a captain. If not, prove it!
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Never fails to amze me the amount of chips on their shoulder pricks post on this site.
Guy asks a normal question and gets bombarded with abuse and sob stories about how hard you have all worked to get where you are.
I would never do such a sh*tty job as a baggage handler, driver or anything after spending £60k on training. Thats not on.
I didn't go to school, work hard and get 3 good A-Levels, then to to a top uni and get a good degree, to pay 60k for an ATPL and do a menial job like a baggage handler.
I would have thought that an fATPL would show up well on any CV for a DECENT temporary job, while looking for employment.
My experience is different. Woke up one day and decided I would like to be a pilot. Wasn't a lifelong dream or anything but I thought it would be good.
I applied to an advert in a magazine I saw for pilot sponorship, got it and now fly A320s and enjoy it.
Guess you have to have the talent to make it as easy at that though!
Guy asks a normal question and gets bombarded with abuse and sob stories about how hard you have all worked to get where you are.
I would never do such a sh*tty job as a baggage handler, driver or anything after spending £60k on training. Thats not on.
I didn't go to school, work hard and get 3 good A-Levels, then to to a top uni and get a good degree, to pay 60k for an ATPL and do a menial job like a baggage handler.
I would have thought that an fATPL would show up well on any CV for a DECENT temporary job, while looking for employment.
My experience is different. Woke up one day and decided I would like to be a pilot. Wasn't a lifelong dream or anything but I thought it would be good.
I applied to an advert in a magazine I saw for pilot sponorship, got it and now fly A320s and enjoy it.
Guess you have to have the talent to make it as easy at that though!
Hose - I suspect you are not genuine like other on this thread... Bora?
Nevertheless, your assertion:
I do not believe for one moment that anyone started their training with the intention of being an instructor, cabin crew, baggage handler or whatever. It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job.
Is not true.
Like many others who had a good working understanding of how the airline hiring business works I never expected to gain employment with them before a 1,000hrs and probably before unfreezing my ATPL. Which is exactly how it worked out.
Being of a somewhat sceptical nature I expected failure and overun at every junction. I anticipated several years of instructing or other air work before airline flying. As a result I managed to never ever be more than £10k in debt and only ever spent £17k on flying training.
Signing on the line for £70odd grands worth of frankly middle-of-the-road training and expecting an airline job in the climate of 18 months ago was - shall we say, optimistic.
Did you not read these forums prior?
Cheers
WWW
Nevertheless, your assertion:
I do not believe for one moment that anyone started their training with the intention of being an instructor, cabin crew, baggage handler or whatever. It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job.
Is not true.
Like many others who had a good working understanding of how the airline hiring business works I never expected to gain employment with them before a 1,000hrs and probably before unfreezing my ATPL. Which is exactly how it worked out.
Being of a somewhat sceptical nature I expected failure and overun at every junction. I anticipated several years of instructing or other air work before airline flying. As a result I managed to never ever be more than £10k in debt and only ever spent £17k on flying training.
Signing on the line for £70odd grands worth of frankly middle-of-the-road training and expecting an airline job in the climate of 18 months ago was - shall we say, optimistic.
Did you not read these forums prior?
Cheers
WWW
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What do you mean WWW?
I am just extrememly annoyed with some of the arrogant "I know it all" responses given on this website. Hence my angry post.
I do believe that a lot of people have a superior aura about them on pprune.
My true opinion:
guys and gals may well have to work as a baggage handler, driver etc.. before emplyment. Part of becoming an airline pilot due to the high cost of entry. Stories to tell the grand kids though!
WWW How do you get away with spending only 17k on training? I got sponored and mine cost more than that.
Where did you go to do it? Afganistan?
Cheers
ps. Id be a much better negotiator than the Americans but thats another story.
I am just extrememly annoyed with some of the arrogant "I know it all" responses given on this website. Hence my angry post.
I do believe that a lot of people have a superior aura about them on pprune.
My true opinion:
guys and gals may well have to work as a baggage handler, driver etc.. before emplyment. Part of becoming an airline pilot due to the high cost of entry. Stories to tell the grand kids though!
WWW How do you get away with spending only 17k on training? I got sponored and mine cost more than that.
Where did you go to do it? Afganistan?
Cheers
ps. Id be a much better negotiator than the Americans but thats another story.
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Paying a great deal of money for training is nothing new - it amazes me how many people think that all problems are an affliction only of their generation, and nothing bad ever happened to those who went before them!
Flying training to ATPL has always been extremely expensive, and the lucky ones who got sponsorships have always been in the very small minority. Paying for type ratings is not new either; it was very common in the late '80s and early '90s when I was first looking at obtaining a commercial flying job. And even those lucky BA Cadets of yore effectively paid for their training and ratings through a reduced salary, just like the CTC cadets do now.
As for hose and his like, it's a great shame they didn't research the market a little more thoroughly before shelling out their £70K+; the contention that the APP course (and similar) would be over-hyped and under-achieving was aired here many times when it was first announced, along with much more information about Oxford's 'career' department and its lack of results.
The fact is, as in every year since before I was born (and that's a long time ago) there have been more people wanting to fly for a living than there can possibly be jobs for them to go to. The training industry has always known this so, like all commerce, it has used semi-promises, guile and art to attract more moths to the flame while being somewhat economic with the truth of what any job prospects might be. Consequently, a higher proportion of graduates of these schools than any of you would be comfortable with never end up flying for a living. It's a fact; get used to it.
How many fATPLs are currently looking? I don't know - no one knows how many that have a non-lapsed licence have given up or are only casually looking, but I'd guess that the estimate of 2000 may be in the right ballpark. At the high end, may be, but there or thereabouts.
It all goes to reinforce what we've been saying here for years: this is a bloody difficult field to get into, and you may well not make it. To maximise your chances you must research the market a carefully as you can, using sites like Pprune, and you must budget all the way to that first job. It's not enough to fork out your £70k and then just hope the jobs will come to you - they won't
Scroggs
Flying training to ATPL has always been extremely expensive, and the lucky ones who got sponsorships have always been in the very small minority. Paying for type ratings is not new either; it was very common in the late '80s and early '90s when I was first looking at obtaining a commercial flying job. And even those lucky BA Cadets of yore effectively paid for their training and ratings through a reduced salary, just like the CTC cadets do now.
As for hose and his like, it's a great shame they didn't research the market a little more thoroughly before shelling out their £70K+; the contention that the APP course (and similar) would be over-hyped and under-achieving was aired here many times when it was first announced, along with much more information about Oxford's 'career' department and its lack of results.
The fact is, as in every year since before I was born (and that's a long time ago) there have been more people wanting to fly for a living than there can possibly be jobs for them to go to. The training industry has always known this so, like all commerce, it has used semi-promises, guile and art to attract more moths to the flame while being somewhat economic with the truth of what any job prospects might be. Consequently, a higher proportion of graduates of these schools than any of you would be comfortable with never end up flying for a living. It's a fact; get used to it.
How many fATPLs are currently looking? I don't know - no one knows how many that have a non-lapsed licence have given up or are only casually looking, but I'd guess that the estimate of 2000 may be in the right ballpark. At the high end, may be, but there or thereabouts.
It all goes to reinforce what we've been saying here for years: this is a bloody difficult field to get into, and you may well not make it. To maximise your chances you must research the market a carefully as you can, using sites like Pprune, and you must budget all the way to that first job. It's not enough to fork out your £70k and then just hope the jobs will come to you - they won't
Scroggs
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pudknocker - Im not an angry person. 
Whether you get a job or not is not all about flying skills.
You get your fATPL - stage 1
In order to then get a job you need to be an excellent communicator in an interview, you also need to be able to demonstrate excellent teamworking skills.
Lots of guys I know who got fATPLS had no personality, were too quiet, or on the other hand were too loud and arrogant and talked a lot of rubbish. Even at my sponsorship selection I could pretty much tell who would get it and who wouldn't, just by sitting and talking with them for a while.
All these guys may have fATPLs - but if they give a poor interview or they cant communicate well or work in a team - they wont get a job. It's the same with university graduates. They may have a degree but that won't get them a job. Their CV, personality and attitude will. These HR airline people aren't going to pick the most technically proficient pilot (although that will obviously be assessed). They are looking at who they would like to work with and asking themselves: will this guy fit into our team?
I have always been an advocate of preparing your ass off for interviews, by going through mock interviews with family/mates, preparing answers for every question you might get asked, even on paper.
Going to a teamwork/interview skills trainer is maybe a good idea.
This is what will give you the edge over some other ATPL holder, not the training itself. That is almost secondary. Go to a slection day and play the game and be well prepared.
You do need to be good enough to pass a sim ride though!
As for guys who sit and mock peoples spelling on pprune (pubknocker) - thats the superior aura Im tlkin about. bawbag
Whether you get a job or not is not all about flying skills.
You get your fATPL - stage 1
In order to then get a job you need to be an excellent communicator in an interview, you also need to be able to demonstrate excellent teamworking skills.
Lots of guys I know who got fATPLS had no personality, were too quiet, or on the other hand were too loud and arrogant and talked a lot of rubbish. Even at my sponsorship selection I could pretty much tell who would get it and who wouldn't, just by sitting and talking with them for a while.
All these guys may have fATPLs - but if they give a poor interview or they cant communicate well or work in a team - they wont get a job. It's the same with university graduates. They may have a degree but that won't get them a job. Their CV, personality and attitude will. These HR airline people aren't going to pick the most technically proficient pilot (although that will obviously be assessed). They are looking at who they would like to work with and asking themselves: will this guy fit into our team?
I have always been an advocate of preparing your ass off for interviews, by going through mock interviews with family/mates, preparing answers for every question you might get asked, even on paper.
Going to a teamwork/interview skills trainer is maybe a good idea.
This is what will give you the edge over some other ATPL holder, not the training itself. That is almost secondary. Go to a slection day and play the game and be well prepared.
You do need to be good enough to pass a sim ride though!
As for guys who sit and mock peoples spelling on pprune (pubknocker) - thats the superior aura Im tlkin about. bawbag
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Bora,bora..............it used to be perfectly feasible to get a licence for £17k,mine cost about £20k.It was called the hours building route......
I sense alot of snobbery in some of these posts.Yes,none of us who wish to fly would choose to end up refuelling/pushing planes about or working as a baggage handler -but you have to be realistic,I spent some time covered in oil with light a/c and manhandling them into hangars- I now fly the 757 but do not look down on those who do !
And to be honest I feel greatly for our engineers night after night in the pissing rain fixing the machines when I am sitting on my arse reading the express and eating crew food on my way to tenerife.
I sense there are alot of people on this site who are in love with the idea of being a pilot,not the reality ,might I suggest you get your rears down to an airport and talk to some of the bedraggled charter crews for a reality check !!
I sense alot of snobbery in some of these posts.Yes,none of us who wish to fly would choose to end up refuelling/pushing planes about or working as a baggage handler -but you have to be realistic,I spent some time covered in oil with light a/c and manhandling them into hangars- I now fly the 757 but do not look down on those who do !
And to be honest I feel greatly for our engineers night after night in the pissing rain fixing the machines when I am sitting on my arse reading the express and eating crew food on my way to tenerife.
I sense there are alot of people on this site who are in love with the idea of being a pilot,not the reality ,might I suggest you get your rears down to an airport and talk to some of the bedraggled charter crews for a reality check !!
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Typical thread
Hello everyone
This is a typical thread for the Wannabes section. Rambling, incoherent and filled with intrigue, anxiety and contradiction. I'm now going to add to it.
The chap seemed to want to know whether to fork out for a type rating. Only he can make this decision. He's learned the hard way about making choices and something of the consequences, and I feel confident that this experience equips him to make a rational judgement before borrowing any more cash.
It's a fecking nightmare to be in his position, and it's not helpful to rip the guy to pieces for events and decisions now passed. He's made his bed, and he has to lie in it, sure, but I hope we can continue to help each other on Pprune, and take people's questions at face value. It's rarely a bad thing to advise caution and feed back experience of hardship if this makes people think carefully about choices that will affect lives for a long time to come.
There is very little in this forum about flying, as much of it centres on bickering about who's better with money.
All the best to everyone.
P.S. - Hookers for £120? Man, you guys are cheap...
P.P.S. - Pushing Tin was on again the other night. I hope they re-run this forever. Some wicked posts on the ATC pages last time this corker was on!
This is a typical thread for the Wannabes section. Rambling, incoherent and filled with intrigue, anxiety and contradiction. I'm now going to add to it.
The chap seemed to want to know whether to fork out for a type rating. Only he can make this decision. He's learned the hard way about making choices and something of the consequences, and I feel confident that this experience equips him to make a rational judgement before borrowing any more cash.
It's a fecking nightmare to be in his position, and it's not helpful to rip the guy to pieces for events and decisions now passed. He's made his bed, and he has to lie in it, sure, but I hope we can continue to help each other on Pprune, and take people's questions at face value. It's rarely a bad thing to advise caution and feed back experience of hardship if this makes people think carefully about choices that will affect lives for a long time to come.
There is very little in this forum about flying, as much of it centres on bickering about who's better with money.
All the best to everyone.
P.S. - Hookers for £120? Man, you guys are cheap...
P.P.S. - Pushing Tin was on again the other night. I hope they re-run this forever. Some wicked posts on the ATC pages last time this corker was on!
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A web link to an airline servey by GAPAN, might explane or give some giudance http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm.
good luck
papp
good luck
papp
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