Pilot shortage
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I don't have anything to add to the argument about potential shortages of pilots in th EU or US, but I do know this; Airlines are ordering a LOT of regional jets at the moment. More than would be required for replacement of the existing fleets. Most of these are new types from Embraer and Bombardier (ERJ/CRJ).
In addition to this Sukhoi are developing a new regional jet for sale on the international market & hence jumping through the JAA and FAA certification hoops. They wouldn't spend all that money without a reasonable expectation of sales.
Logic dictates that all these new aircraft will require pilots.
In addition to this Sukhoi are developing a new regional jet for sale on the international market & hence jumping through the JAA and FAA certification hoops. They wouldn't spend all that money without a reasonable expectation of sales.
Logic dictates that all these new aircraft will require pilots.
Logic would also dictate that a company would use the pilots from the aircraft that the new types have replaced.
Logic also suggests that if the new type carries more passengers or is faster - allowing more sectors per day - then there is a potential to reduce the number of airframes required in the fleet. That reduces the number of pilots required.
Logic also dictates that if the new type replaces several different types then the number of reserve crews is reduced. That also reduces the total number of pilots the company needs.
Logic continues to dictate that the trend towards utilising maximum permitted flight & duty hours for crew reduces the total number of pilots needed.
Only if there is an increase in the number of airframes required OR possibly in increase in the utilisation of the airframes OR a more limiting regulatory change in FTLs is there an increase in the number of pilots needed.
Logic also suggests that if the new type carries more passengers or is faster - allowing more sectors per day - then there is a potential to reduce the number of airframes required in the fleet. That reduces the number of pilots required.
Logic also dictates that if the new type replaces several different types then the number of reserve crews is reduced. That also reduces the total number of pilots the company needs.
Logic continues to dictate that the trend towards utilising maximum permitted flight & duty hours for crew reduces the total number of pilots needed.
Only if there is an increase in the number of airframes required OR possibly in increase in the utilisation of the airframes OR a more limiting regulatory change in FTLs is there an increase in the number of pilots needed.
No, can't think of any airlines taking non-rated pilots. Except for Britannia, Jet 2, Virgin, DHL, Ryanair, easyJet, Emirates, Qatar, Cathay Pacific, Dragonair etc!
Things are looking up. And don't forget that those schools which survived 9/11 have been running on reduced capacity.
Things are looking up. And don't forget that those schools which survived 9/11 have been running on reduced capacity.
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Tinstaafl,
Can you read my post again please?
You'll note that I wrote: "More than would be required for replacement of the existing fleets". In fact most of these orders seem to be for additional aircraft.
As for them being faster - No, not particularly. Carrying more PAX? Actually the trend seems to be for less passengers on regional jets.
The reason that they are attractive is due to the projected operating costs - maintenance intervals, SFC & reliability for example, being better that for the equivalent Airbus or Boeing.
However, I must add one caveat - these aircraft aren't likely to enter service for another 2-4 years.
BF.
Can you read my post again please?
You'll note that I wrote: "More than would be required for replacement of the existing fleets". In fact most of these orders seem to be for additional aircraft.
As for them being faster - No, not particularly. Carrying more PAX? Actually the trend seems to be for less passengers on regional jets.
The reason that they are attractive is due to the projected operating costs - maintenance intervals, SFC & reliability for example, being better that for the equivalent Airbus or Boeing.
However, I must add one caveat - these aircraft aren't likely to enter service for another 2-4 years.
BF.
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Another thing which is cocking things up is the scandi goverments.
If an unemployed scandi pilot comes over to the UK there goverment will pay for the type rating.
Doesn't seem very sporting to me when we have so many high quality pilots available.
MJ
If an unemployed scandi pilot comes over to the UK there goverment will pay for the type rating.
Doesn't seem very sporting to me when we have so many high quality pilots available.
MJ
PPRuNe Handmaiden
RTO,
Dragonair have taken quite a few Aussies that don't have type ratings.
Cathay have taken a lot of Aussies with turboprop time only. No jet, let alone heavy jet.
DHL UK are interviewing guys with no type rating, no jet time either. One of the chaps concerned has lots of small turboprop time.
So, it really isn't all doom and gloom.
It's the best I have seen it since Sept 2001.
Dragonair have taken quite a few Aussies that don't have type ratings.
Cathay have taken a lot of Aussies with turboprop time only. No jet, let alone heavy jet.
DHL UK are interviewing guys with no type rating, no jet time either. One of the chaps concerned has lots of small turboprop time.
So, it really isn't all doom and gloom.
It's the best I have seen it since Sept 2001.
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RTO you're wrong on almost all counts, I'm afraid. Don't go entirely by what websites say and by secondhand information from friends. As Dan and I have or do work for Virgin, we can tell you that Virgin most specifically does not require pilots to be rated. Neither does Cathay, Dragonair, nor Emirates - though all these airlines require considerable experience. Britannia, Ryanair and easyJet have all been taking pilots unrated on the types flown by these airlines, even though their advertising asks for rated pilots. Qatar has also, though I'm not sure what their line is now. DHL and Jet2 I can't speak of.
But you're right in one aspect - mad_jock is talking rubbish!
Scroggs
But you're right in one aspect - mad_jock is talking rubbish!
Scroggs
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With the advent of aircraft such as the Farnborough F1 this is surely going to create a demand for more pilots. from what I understand this aircraft will be tapping into a currently undeveloped niche market.
The european expansion of low-cost airlines is far from over. The expansion of the EU and former soviet controlled states devloping must surely mean opportunities for airlines to find new business and routes
The european expansion of low-cost airlines is far from over. The expansion of the EU and former soviet controlled states devloping must surely mean opportunities for airlines to find new business and routes
How many Aussies are there?
G'day M.85,
Here's another Aussie!
You may not realise why there are so many of us here?
Well, I've been living in the UK now for 9 weeks, and have come from Melbourne. Did all of my training via the modular route from 1999 'till 2001, and had been in Melbourne ever since scrimping and saving to be able to afford to move here.
Like many Aussies, my chances of ever getting a job on a jet at home are questionable (at best). This has gotten better (a bit) with the arrival of Virgin Blue on the scene. In fact, even getting a gig on a Dash 8 or a Brasillia is tough work because of the sheer size of the competition. People who have got those jobs already have 1000-3000 hours and have "taken it with the rough end of the pineapple" for years in GA, flying dodgy single engine types on minimum wage and being asked (made) to work in very questionable conditions.
I've been registered on Proon for a while now, and over the years I've seen the most incredibly ignorant attitudes in regards to Turboprop work. Back home, it is a major acheivement to get onto a Dash 8, F27, Saab 340 etc. Sure, the competition is tough here at the moment but it's a land of opportunity. I'll gladly take one of your Turboprop jobs with my 300 hrs! Not only that, but I'll do it anytime, day or night, and will just be happy to cover my basic living expenses. Get excited about the fact that you have dozens of jet operators to forward your CV to.
And, most of all, don't just wait for a Pilot shortage to happen. There is a trickle of jobs out there, and some low hours people are being considered (Turboprop). Do ALL that you can to be considered. For me, this includes keeping the IR and Medical current, reviewing info from the ATPL's on a reguar basis, undertaking some aptitude testing so that you KNOW what to expect at interviews, undertake some training in CV and Interview technique, and the MOST IMPORTANT:
NETWORK, NETWORK AND NETWORK SOME MORE!!
In a sea of 300 hr. CPL/IR's, we all look the same unless we have some sort of personal connection with the Chief Pilot/ Fleet Manager. Once a foot's in the door at that personal level, it's then just a matter of "cultivating" that friendship over the phone/email etc. If you can swing it and your working situation allows it, get out in the car with your suit and tie on and some CV's under your arm, and trawl the country for face-to -face meetings. A Turpoprop fleet manager would be chuffed that you took the time to drive from Manchester to Exeter just to present your face! Of course, find the balance where you are being "keen" and not a "pest".
As I said, low hours peolple are getting jobs. But these people have done ALL that they can to be prepared , and have given themselves every chance. Don't leave any stone unturned.
The clincher for me to forget about a career (for the time being) in Oz was back in 1997. I was jumpseating Melbourne- Brisbane in a Qantas 737 and having a chat with the Captain in regards to what I wanted to do with my flying career. I said that one day I'd love to fly for Qantas. His response to me was that at 23, I was too old to have any sort of chance of getting into an Airline in Oz!! At the time I had already completed some of my CPL training.
So boys and girls, be thankfull that you live in a part of the world where the dream is possible. Be thankfull that you can fy something decent without having to live in incredibly remote places just to fly a Cessna 210.
Go out there and make it happen. Todays friendly contact is tommorows head start when jobs re-appear.
Best of luck to all,
Gearup.
Oh yeah, and M.85, chuck us another shrimp on the barbie willya?
Here's another Aussie!
You may not realise why there are so many of us here?
Well, I've been living in the UK now for 9 weeks, and have come from Melbourne. Did all of my training via the modular route from 1999 'till 2001, and had been in Melbourne ever since scrimping and saving to be able to afford to move here.
Like many Aussies, my chances of ever getting a job on a jet at home are questionable (at best). This has gotten better (a bit) with the arrival of Virgin Blue on the scene. In fact, even getting a gig on a Dash 8 or a Brasillia is tough work because of the sheer size of the competition. People who have got those jobs already have 1000-3000 hours and have "taken it with the rough end of the pineapple" for years in GA, flying dodgy single engine types on minimum wage and being asked (made) to work in very questionable conditions.
I've been registered on Proon for a while now, and over the years I've seen the most incredibly ignorant attitudes in regards to Turboprop work. Back home, it is a major acheivement to get onto a Dash 8, F27, Saab 340 etc. Sure, the competition is tough here at the moment but it's a land of opportunity. I'll gladly take one of your Turboprop jobs with my 300 hrs! Not only that, but I'll do it anytime, day or night, and will just be happy to cover my basic living expenses. Get excited about the fact that you have dozens of jet operators to forward your CV to.
And, most of all, don't just wait for a Pilot shortage to happen. There is a trickle of jobs out there, and some low hours people are being considered (Turboprop). Do ALL that you can to be considered. For me, this includes keeping the IR and Medical current, reviewing info from the ATPL's on a reguar basis, undertaking some aptitude testing so that you KNOW what to expect at interviews, undertake some training in CV and Interview technique, and the MOST IMPORTANT:
NETWORK, NETWORK AND NETWORK SOME MORE!!
In a sea of 300 hr. CPL/IR's, we all look the same unless we have some sort of personal connection with the Chief Pilot/ Fleet Manager. Once a foot's in the door at that personal level, it's then just a matter of "cultivating" that friendship over the phone/email etc. If you can swing it and your working situation allows it, get out in the car with your suit and tie on and some CV's under your arm, and trawl the country for face-to -face meetings. A Turpoprop fleet manager would be chuffed that you took the time to drive from Manchester to Exeter just to present your face! Of course, find the balance where you are being "keen" and not a "pest".
As I said, low hours peolple are getting jobs. But these people have done ALL that they can to be prepared , and have given themselves every chance. Don't leave any stone unturned.
The clincher for me to forget about a career (for the time being) in Oz was back in 1997. I was jumpseating Melbourne- Brisbane in a Qantas 737 and having a chat with the Captain in regards to what I wanted to do with my flying career. I said that one day I'd love to fly for Qantas. His response to me was that at 23, I was too old to have any sort of chance of getting into an Airline in Oz!! At the time I had already completed some of my CPL training.
So boys and girls, be thankfull that you live in a part of the world where the dream is possible. Be thankfull that you can fy something decent without having to live in incredibly remote places just to fly a Cessna 210.
Go out there and make it happen. Todays friendly contact is tommorows head start when jobs re-appear.
Best of luck to all,
Gearup.
Oh yeah, and M.85, chuck us another shrimp on the barbie willya?
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you get me a barbie AND a barbecue..ill be getting you all the shrimps youd like
Seriously,I know about Australia,one of my very good friends is a capt on 737 in england and hes an aussie!
I have nothing against you guys coming hre..not at all..it was just a question to see how many aussies are actually in this aviation market..seems a lot compare to here.
About getting a job i do agree with you.However the grass is not always greener and im also looking for anything to put my hands on..C172 will do ..JAA ATPL over 2500 hours multi turbine here.
Good luck!
About the shrimps im serious
Safe Braaing,
M.85
Seriously,I know about Australia,one of my very good friends is a capt on 737 in england and hes an aussie!
I have nothing against you guys coming hre..not at all..it was just a question to see how many aussies are actually in this aviation market..seems a lot compare to here.
About getting a job i do agree with you.However the grass is not always greener and im also looking for anything to put my hands on..C172 will do ..JAA ATPL over 2500 hours multi turbine here.
Good luck!
About the shrimps im serious
Safe Braaing,
M.85
G'day M.85
Yeah M.85,
I know exactly what you mean about the grass not always been greener!
As I said, I've only been here 9 weeks and already there are apects in the way that this country that completely astound me! Especially in the public health and banking sectors! The cocept that you can't go and see any other GP other than the one that you registered with- even if your'e unwell and there are no appointments available!?!?!?!
Mate just so that you know, in Australian vernacular, "Barbie" can mean the Barbeque itself, or it can also refer to the act of having a Barbecue.
ie: put another shrimp on the Barbie OR;
It's a great night for a Barbie.
Now you can regale your friends with some of your new- found Aussie lingo!!
Seriously though, the reason why you'll find such a concentration of Aussies in the UK (as opposed to the Continent) has got to do with the VISA requirements. For example, my Wife's family is from Northern Ireland (UK) so she has the "Right of Abode" for the UK. My Visa is as a "Settlement" Visa, which means that normally I wouldn't have the right to work in the UK, however I am settling here with my Wife and so I can. HOWEVER, this Visa is valid for the UK, and not the rest of the EU unfortunately.
You will fing that almost all Aussies over here are in a similar situation.
Best Reards,
Gearup!
I know exactly what you mean about the grass not always been greener!
As I said, I've only been here 9 weeks and already there are apects in the way that this country that completely astound me! Especially in the public health and banking sectors! The cocept that you can't go and see any other GP other than the one that you registered with- even if your'e unwell and there are no appointments available!?!?!?!
Mate just so that you know, in Australian vernacular, "Barbie" can mean the Barbeque itself, or it can also refer to the act of having a Barbecue.
ie: put another shrimp on the Barbie OR;
It's a great night for a Barbie.
Now you can regale your friends with some of your new- found Aussie lingo!!
Seriously though, the reason why you'll find such a concentration of Aussies in the UK (as opposed to the Continent) has got to do with the VISA requirements. For example, my Wife's family is from Northern Ireland (UK) so she has the "Right of Abode" for the UK. My Visa is as a "Settlement" Visa, which means that normally I wouldn't have the right to work in the UK, however I am settling here with my Wife and so I can. HOWEVER, this Visa is valid for the UK, and not the rest of the EU unfortunately.
You will fing that almost all Aussies over here are in a similar situation.
Best Reards,
Gearup!
RTO. OK, lets elaborate:
Britannia: ask for type rated pilots but there aren't many. So they emply non - type rated pilots. A friend of mine has recently started a B757 course with only a few hundred hours and nothing heavier than a Seneca in his logbook.
Jet 2: Again, ask for type ratings but are taking pilots without. Two friends of mine have just joined without ratings - directly into the LHS!
Virgin: Not requiring type ratings. Didn't when I joined, still don't. Two of my non-type rated mates are about to start their A340 courses.
DHL: Would like type rated people - like most. However, there aren't many. Don't personally know anyone who joined, but have heard stories of those who have joined without ratings.
Ryanair: No type ratings - but even if you have to pay for one - you still don't have to have one to join.
Easyjet: Ditto. However, if you have enough experience, they don't require you to pay. Three mates joined in this category. Two had commands within a year.
Emirates: Lots of my mates went there. None with A330 or B777 ratings. OK, you have to have a number of hours and glass jet time - but no rating.
Cathay Pacific: Where do I start? Quite a few mates joined - no ratings. They do have a huge amount of applicants to chose from which may be why you haven't heard from them.
Dragonair: Your info about this company is way off - it's my company! I was neither a type rated captain or from HK. Min 4000 hours though.
Qatar: Would like type ratings - that's why they ask. However, I refer you to the case of another mate who joined with no type rating.
Are you perhaps confusing a lack of a rating with lack of experience?
Scroggs - thanks for the support.
PS - I've thought of two more. NetJets (no ratings required) and Singapore Cargo (preference to rated pilots, but not required).
PPS - I just re-read your first post. You appear to have 140 hours and a PPL. Unless you are applying for a cadetship, you won't get a reply from anyone until you meet the company's recruitment criteria.
Britannia: ask for type rated pilots but there aren't many. So they emply non - type rated pilots. A friend of mine has recently started a B757 course with only a few hundred hours and nothing heavier than a Seneca in his logbook.
Jet 2: Again, ask for type ratings but are taking pilots without. Two friends of mine have just joined without ratings - directly into the LHS!
Virgin: Not requiring type ratings. Didn't when I joined, still don't. Two of my non-type rated mates are about to start their A340 courses.
DHL: Would like type rated people - like most. However, there aren't many. Don't personally know anyone who joined, but have heard stories of those who have joined without ratings.
Ryanair: No type ratings - but even if you have to pay for one - you still don't have to have one to join.
Easyjet: Ditto. However, if you have enough experience, they don't require you to pay. Three mates joined in this category. Two had commands within a year.
Emirates: Lots of my mates went there. None with A330 or B777 ratings. OK, you have to have a number of hours and glass jet time - but no rating.
Cathay Pacific: Where do I start? Quite a few mates joined - no ratings. They do have a huge amount of applicants to chose from which may be why you haven't heard from them.
Dragonair: Your info about this company is way off - it's my company! I was neither a type rated captain or from HK. Min 4000 hours though.
Qatar: Would like type ratings - that's why they ask. However, I refer you to the case of another mate who joined with no type rating.
Are you perhaps confusing a lack of a rating with lack of experience?
Scroggs - thanks for the support.
PS - I've thought of two more. NetJets (no ratings required) and Singapore Cargo (preference to rated pilots, but not required).
PPS - I just re-read your first post. You appear to have 140 hours and a PPL. Unless you are applying for a cadetship, you won't get a reply from anyone until you meet the company's recruitment criteria.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 20th Jan 2004 at 03:58.
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I think that when you get to a certain amount of RHS experience (1000- 2000 hrs or more), the type rating requirement becomes less of a requiement from the airlines. Unfortunately, it's the poor low hour suckers who have the worst of all worlds!
Catch 22- no job with low hours- and without a job very limited means of building hours- or pay for a type rating and hope.
Catch 22- no job with low hours- and without a job very limited means of building hours- or pay for a type rating and hope.
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Gear up.
I am aware of the reciprocals between New Zealand ,Australia and the UK.
Concerning the barbie..i did understand the concept!i doubt youd fry shrimps on a real barbie
Therefore i showed you how south africans call your barbie..a BRAAI.
Its amazing how much one can learn on PPrune
All the best to you,by logging onto pprune you did a great step to get info...I wish i had known about it earlier..
M.85
I am aware of the reciprocals between New Zealand ,Australia and the UK.
Concerning the barbie..i did understand the concept!i doubt youd fry shrimps on a real barbie
Therefore i showed you how south africans call your barbie..a BRAAI.
Its amazing how much one can learn on PPrune
All the best to you,by logging onto pprune you did a great step to get info...I wish i had known about it earlier..
M.85