forced to pay for a type rating!
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forced to pay for a type rating!
The modern trend in aviation of airlines demanding pilots to shoulder the training costs of getting a type specific rating is very controversial.
In the past airlines alway paid for these. It was part of their annual training budget and was considered a normal expense when hiring new pilots.
Most of today's pilots with more than 3 years of line experience never had to straight-out pay for any training. It is true they had in many cases to endure substantially lower pay for the period they where financially bonded. But not before they where guaranteed a job. First the contract, then the training, then the bonding. Today it is the complete opposite. They want you to pay now, train later and maybe in the future if they need you, they will think of hiring you.
The concept of paying for a type rating for a SPECIFIC aircraft is to me insulting. Pilots have no choice in what types airlines operate. We just want a decent job doing what we like, which is flying from A to B. If an airline wants us to commit to spending 30.000 plus euros on a type rating that limits our possibilities, they should at least give us some kind of commitment on their part too. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. If you get a 737 type rating for example, you are commited to this type and to looking for jobs at airlines that operate this type! You are actually increasing your odds of employment but at the same time narrowing your possibilities.
Another thing that is mind boggling is that most airlines not only require pilots to have type ratings but also to have TIME ON TYPE (usually at least 500Hrs) and be CURRENT in the last 3 months.
One thing is having to pay for the TR, ****ty but if you have money it is possible. Another altoghether is getting 500Hrs on type and being current. This means that you have to already be flying on this type at an airline. So what happens is that no new people get in. Pilots are recycled from within.
I severly question these practices. Are they legal? Does this not constitute some kind of abuse by the part of the airlines? Shouldn't the local labour ministries check these practices out to figure if employee rights are being abused? It is illegal to discriminate against race, gender or religion. But doesn't it seem wrong to discriminate against Type ratings? The first three items are of a social nature, the last one is of a financial nature. The Airlines are discriminating pilots on basis type ratings; on basis of saving money. It is a financial driver, nothing more.
Shouldn't pilot labour unions tackle this issue more seriously? Shouldn't governments formulate more stringent rulemaking that better protects future pilots rights to descent and fair treatment?
Isn't the European continent supposed to be SOCIAL in it's way of treating people?
Airlines forget that no company can function without people, be it pilots, cabin crew, ground crew, gate agents or office workers. People are key players. Humans are not the same as a computer or a chair or any other peice of furniture in an office. We are not just a ledger in the accountant's expense books. We make the company happen. People are the single most important asset any company has. This relationship must be nurtured, developped, managed with great care. It is a give and take affair.
If pilots feel exploited and abused even before ever stepping in a cock-pit, how can any airline expect commitment or dedication on the part of the employees? Pilots tend to grow resentment towards the airlines and just use then the same way that they feel they are being used. At the first chance they get of jumping ship to a better airline they leave without ever thinking twice. It cuts both ways. You reap what you sow.
It is very short-sighted of airlines to swap long-term planning for short-term financial savings. If you think short-term most probably there won't be any long-term anyway
Is there any kind of organized movement to counter this phenomenom? Can we do something to stop it, or at least regulate it in a more logical and decent way, in order to avoid the curren catch-22 scenario's?
If this continues unchecked it will be the end of aviation as a respectable way of making your living...
In the past airlines alway paid for these. It was part of their annual training budget and was considered a normal expense when hiring new pilots.
Most of today's pilots with more than 3 years of line experience never had to straight-out pay for any training. It is true they had in many cases to endure substantially lower pay for the period they where financially bonded. But not before they where guaranteed a job. First the contract, then the training, then the bonding. Today it is the complete opposite. They want you to pay now, train later and maybe in the future if they need you, they will think of hiring you.
The concept of paying for a type rating for a SPECIFIC aircraft is to me insulting. Pilots have no choice in what types airlines operate. We just want a decent job doing what we like, which is flying from A to B. If an airline wants us to commit to spending 30.000 plus euros on a type rating that limits our possibilities, they should at least give us some kind of commitment on their part too. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. If you get a 737 type rating for example, you are commited to this type and to looking for jobs at airlines that operate this type! You are actually increasing your odds of employment but at the same time narrowing your possibilities.
Another thing that is mind boggling is that most airlines not only require pilots to have type ratings but also to have TIME ON TYPE (usually at least 500Hrs) and be CURRENT in the last 3 months.
One thing is having to pay for the TR, ****ty but if you have money it is possible. Another altoghether is getting 500Hrs on type and being current. This means that you have to already be flying on this type at an airline. So what happens is that no new people get in. Pilots are recycled from within.
I severly question these practices. Are they legal? Does this not constitute some kind of abuse by the part of the airlines? Shouldn't the local labour ministries check these practices out to figure if employee rights are being abused? It is illegal to discriminate against race, gender or religion. But doesn't it seem wrong to discriminate against Type ratings? The first three items are of a social nature, the last one is of a financial nature. The Airlines are discriminating pilots on basis type ratings; on basis of saving money. It is a financial driver, nothing more.
Shouldn't pilot labour unions tackle this issue more seriously? Shouldn't governments formulate more stringent rulemaking that better protects future pilots rights to descent and fair treatment?
Isn't the European continent supposed to be SOCIAL in it's way of treating people?
Airlines forget that no company can function without people, be it pilots, cabin crew, ground crew, gate agents or office workers. People are key players. Humans are not the same as a computer or a chair or any other peice of furniture in an office. We are not just a ledger in the accountant's expense books. We make the company happen. People are the single most important asset any company has. This relationship must be nurtured, developped, managed with great care. It is a give and take affair.
If pilots feel exploited and abused even before ever stepping in a cock-pit, how can any airline expect commitment or dedication on the part of the employees? Pilots tend to grow resentment towards the airlines and just use then the same way that they feel they are being used. At the first chance they get of jumping ship to a better airline they leave without ever thinking twice. It cuts both ways. You reap what you sow.
It is very short-sighted of airlines to swap long-term planning for short-term financial savings. If you think short-term most probably there won't be any long-term anyway
Is there any kind of organized movement to counter this phenomenom? Can we do something to stop it, or at least regulate it in a more logical and decent way, in order to avoid the curren catch-22 scenario's?
If this continues unchecked it will be the end of aviation as a respectable way of making your living...
Unfortunately, some people would be ready to kill to get an airline job...
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Of people are prepared to do so, then market forces will determine it as such - simply a demand existing for desperate people with the means to finance and a licence will go for it.
Perhaps however if there were proven to be collusion between airlines and training organsations to force this upon us as pilots, we would have more than a leg to stand upon to take them to the Competition Commission.
Unfortunately it is wholly legal if it functions without the above, and there is no recourse to discrimination laws. Companies have an obligation to act in the best interests of their shareholders, not their employees or recruits - they are sowing the seeds of their destruction however, were the market to turn, and a drought of labour were to arise, as there would be zilch loyalty.
Think of it as them getting their cummupance in the future.
Perhaps however if there were proven to be collusion between airlines and training organsations to force this upon us as pilots, we would have more than a leg to stand upon to take them to the Competition Commission.
Unfortunately it is wholly legal if it functions without the above, and there is no recourse to discrimination laws. Companies have an obligation to act in the best interests of their shareholders, not their employees or recruits - they are sowing the seeds of their destruction however, were the market to turn, and a drought of labour were to arise, as there would be zilch loyalty.
Think of it as them getting their cummupance in the future.
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I've thought for a while there's a story in here somewhere for an enterprising journo, along the lines of "LOW COST, LOW SAFETY? How safe would you feel if your pilot [singular] bribed his way into the cockpit[sounds sexier than flightdeck]? See pages 3,5,6,15,27,28 for tits galore"
Perhaps they could be the pilots' friend after all?
Let's be candid about this, when you buy a type rating, you're attempting to buy a job.
We all know that historically low (along with not so low) hour pilots find their way into various airlines, but these days of money changing hands (en-mass) to do so are largely new.
Perhaps they could be the pilots' friend after all?
Let's be candid about this, when you buy a type rating, you're attempting to buy a job.
We all know that historically low (along with not so low) hour pilots find their way into various airlines, but these days of money changing hands (en-mass) to do so are largely new.
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LOL
Low Cost Low safety?
How many hours have you got ginslinger? Do you deserve a job at your level of experience, in your own terms? Or, should we deny all wannabees a chance, especially those that can demonstrate that they are a 'cut above the rest of you'?
Give me a break, please
MadDog
Give me 3 months and I will come here and make you 'eat your own words'.
Why 3 months? Because in 3 months I will have the first of our pilots out there in employment, mark my words.
Low Cost Low safety?
How many hours have you got ginslinger? Do you deserve a job at your level of experience, in your own terms? Or, should we deny all wannabees a chance, especially those that can demonstrate that they are a 'cut above the rest of you'?
Give me a break, please
MadDog
Give me 3 months and I will come here and make you 'eat your own words'.
Why 3 months? Because in 3 months I will have the first of our pilots out there in employment, mark my words.
Last edited by CH4; 6th Nov 2003 at 13:56.
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"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (- Hamlet)
CH4:
Look, I was merely speculating about a possible interpretation of the current trend. I made no inflection of my experience level or the safety of low cost airlines.
I do however find the current practice of airlines and training organisations colluding to encourage desperate people to get even further into debt to improve their bottom line or line their pockets quite distasteful. That is my opinion. I wouldn't be at all upset if popular opinion forced them to stop this practice, and I doubt many on PPRuNe would do on either. You on the other hand have a business interest for the trend to continue.
And it is nonsense to suggest that this would stop wannabes getting their chance. Do you think experienced pilots are somehow grown on trees, or once one's ATPL is unfrozen the ageing process stops? No, of course not.
Before you accuse me of believing that the world owes me a living, I can assure you that isn't the case.
Look, I was merely speculating about a possible interpretation of the current trend. I made no inflection of my experience level or the safety of low cost airlines.
I do however find the current practice of airlines and training organisations colluding to encourage desperate people to get even further into debt to improve their bottom line or line their pockets quite distasteful. That is my opinion. I wouldn't be at all upset if popular opinion forced them to stop this practice, and I doubt many on PPRuNe would do on either. You on the other hand have a business interest for the trend to continue.
And it is nonsense to suggest that this would stop wannabes getting their chance. Do you think experienced pilots are somehow grown on trees, or once one's ATPL is unfrozen the ageing process stops? No, of course not.
Before you accuse me of believing that the world owes me a living, I can assure you that isn't the case.
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CH4,
Quote: "I will not be the one to show you up as a bitter twisted twit, but the ones that have suceeded will be the ones to prove how you spent your time here so unproductively!"
You're being a little hard on Mad Dog there I feel. His post was a little naive but not twisted - sounded more like frustration - underserving of your harsh response IMHO.
Been reading the posts about GlobalAvSolutions with interest - I'm sure with effort from all sides it will prove to be a well thought of scheme.
However, just some constructive criticism - take it or leave it - occasionally your posts don't always convey the polish one would expect from senior management of a top class training organisation. That would be enough to make some of us hesitate to embark on your scheme.
Quote: "I will not be the one to show you up as a bitter twisted twit, but the ones that have suceeded will be the ones to prove how you spent your time here so unproductively!"
You're being a little hard on Mad Dog there I feel. His post was a little naive but not twisted - sounded more like frustration - underserving of your harsh response IMHO.
Been reading the posts about GlobalAvSolutions with interest - I'm sure with effort from all sides it will prove to be a well thought of scheme.
However, just some constructive criticism - take it or leave it - occasionally your posts don't always convey the polish one would expect from senior management of a top class training organisation. That would be enough to make some of us hesitate to embark on your scheme.
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Gin Slinger - grow up mate !
The bottom line is that when a pilot has a type-rating, no matter by which route they obtained it, i.e. be it self or airline funded, the result is the same - in that the pilot is rated to operate the aircraft type that is written within their license.
Of course in order to become type-rated these pilots have had to pass the ground exams and license skills test ( LPC / OPC ) and that these must all be completed to a certain standard.
It is on that basis only that the rating issued by the relevant licensing authority - wherein the ability, or not, to pay does not remove the fact that the ground and flying tests still have to be passed and that the pass mark does not very according to ones financial status.
Now this is probably not what you want to hear but I'm afraid that these are the facts of the matter.
Ps. I you want to call-in the press to assess the skills of newly type-rated pilots then please do - wherein what they ( the press ) will find is that these pilots all have the qualifications required to operate the aircraft ( and some of them happen to be bloomin’ good pilots too ! )
The bottom line is that when a pilot has a type-rating, no matter by which route they obtained it, i.e. be it self or airline funded, the result is the same - in that the pilot is rated to operate the aircraft type that is written within their license.
Of course in order to become type-rated these pilots have had to pass the ground exams and license skills test ( LPC / OPC ) and that these must all be completed to a certain standard.
It is on that basis only that the rating issued by the relevant licensing authority - wherein the ability, or not, to pay does not remove the fact that the ground and flying tests still have to be passed and that the pass mark does not very according to ones financial status.
Now this is probably not what you want to hear but I'm afraid that these are the facts of the matter.
Ps. I you want to call-in the press to assess the skills of newly type-rated pilots then please do - wherein what they ( the press ) will find is that these pilots all have the qualifications required to operate the aircraft ( and some of them happen to be bloomin’ good pilots too ! )
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Ginslinger
Fair dues
No, I'm not accusing you of anything.
Maybe I agree with you about how unfair it is of the airlines to change their terms and practices, but you have to live in a realistic world. We train people, no matter who pays the bill, and we place people in airlines for a living. Fact. Why do people want to rubbish us for what we do?
Go bully the airlines; they are the ones that set the trend. Don't be-little your fellow aviators for trying to take a step ahead. The ones with the ability will suceed, those that don't have 'it' will not.
Also, no one is encouraging anyone to get further into debt; quite the opposite, those that pass will get an income to pay of their debts; assuming they have any!
Buttline
Fairdoes to you too
I hope I don't appear here as a bully. That is the last thing I would wish anyone to think. Yes, I'm harsh here at times, because I see so much bull**** and bravado from people that hide behind their own identity, with cock all experience, but think they should be the next DFO. In most cases they have little experience to back up their opinions.
I have a great number of pilots that work for me (with me, would be a better expression) and you will never see them here in this forum. I could 'mobilise them' to be vocal here if you want, but most of them are very content to sit at home with their families or better still are down the pub or elsewhere enjoying themselves.
Why would anyone want a polished exterior? Believe me, getting that first foot on the ladder ain't that easy, if it's polished you may slip. I say it as I see it, but you can take my word as fact. Sorry if it hurts sometimes.
Fair dues
No, I'm not accusing you of anything.
Maybe I agree with you about how unfair it is of the airlines to change their terms and practices, but you have to live in a realistic world. We train people, no matter who pays the bill, and we place people in airlines for a living. Fact. Why do people want to rubbish us for what we do?
Go bully the airlines; they are the ones that set the trend. Don't be-little your fellow aviators for trying to take a step ahead. The ones with the ability will suceed, those that don't have 'it' will not.
Also, no one is encouraging anyone to get further into debt; quite the opposite, those that pass will get an income to pay of their debts; assuming they have any!
Buttline
Fairdoes to you too
I hope I don't appear here as a bully. That is the last thing I would wish anyone to think. Yes, I'm harsh here at times, because I see so much bull**** and bravado from people that hide behind their own identity, with cock all experience, but think they should be the next DFO. In most cases they have little experience to back up their opinions.
I have a great number of pilots that work for me (with me, would be a better expression) and you will never see them here in this forum. I could 'mobilise them' to be vocal here if you want, but most of them are very content to sit at home with their families or better still are down the pub or elsewhere enjoying themselves.
Why would anyone want a polished exterior? Believe me, getting that first foot on the ladder ain't that easy, if it's polished you may slip. I say it as I see it, but you can take my word as fact. Sorry if it hurts sometimes.
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CH4
"Why do people want to rubbish us for what we do?"
Ok- I will try to explain. The reason why I do not like what you are doing is simple: This "training course" you are marketing will definitely add a remarkable amount of cost to any "low time pilot candidate", WITHOUT GIVING him/her ANY GUARANTEE FOR a JOB.
And I do continue disliking it as long as you can prove, with clear statistics, that EVERYONE WHO PASSES THE TRAINING WILL GET A JOB. (as you said, they should have reached the required standart!?)
I always get irritated when I see fellows around this industry, trying to act as your best friend but actually they are only after your money.
And CH4, with all respect, as long as you take my fellow aviators money but leave them without the job you "promised", I will consider you as one of them!
Ok- I will try to explain. The reason why I do not like what you are doing is simple: This "training course" you are marketing will definitely add a remarkable amount of cost to any "low time pilot candidate", WITHOUT GIVING him/her ANY GUARANTEE FOR a JOB.
And I do continue disliking it as long as you can prove, with clear statistics, that EVERYONE WHO PASSES THE TRAINING WILL GET A JOB. (as you said, they should have reached the required standart!?)
I always get irritated when I see fellows around this industry, trying to act as your best friend but actually they are only after your money.
And CH4, with all respect, as long as you take my fellow aviators money but leave them without the job you "promised", I will consider you as one of them!
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Aviate378, the fact is that - unless of course your're one of the tiny minority who are fully sponsored - from the moment one sets foot on the slippery slope that is commercial aviation, people are taking money from you, indeed typically from the moment of ones first lesson until the arrival of the first airline pay cheque.
Anybody who spends their money on flying training is taking a risk - you spend money on a trial lesson ( not knowing if you'll like it ), you spend money gaining your PPL ( with no guarantees that you'll pass ), you then spend a small fortune on the commercial pilots ground exams ( ditto ), likewise training for ratings ( ditto ) and for the GFT and IR ( ditto ), etc ( ditto ).
All in all one spends a bloomin' fortune on the whole process with no, repeat no, guarantees that there will be employment for you at the end of it - wherein it's a very expensive gamble.
So, just what is it about this, i.e. that nobody is guaranteed a job when ( maybe that should read 'if' ) you eventually qualify, that so many of you fail to understand ?
All the time that young men and women are prepared to beggar themselves - in the hope that an airline will employ them - the beanies at the same said airlines will indeed be delighted to allow wannabes to out supply their demand.
Anybody who spends their money on flying training is taking a risk - you spend money on a trial lesson ( not knowing if you'll like it ), you spend money gaining your PPL ( with no guarantees that you'll pass ), you then spend a small fortune on the commercial pilots ground exams ( ditto ), likewise training for ratings ( ditto ) and for the GFT and IR ( ditto ), etc ( ditto ).
All in all one spends a bloomin' fortune on the whole process with no, repeat no, guarantees that there will be employment for you at the end of it - wherein it's a very expensive gamble.
So, just what is it about this, i.e. that nobody is guaranteed a job when ( maybe that should read 'if' ) you eventually qualify, that so many of you fail to understand ?
All the time that young men and women are prepared to beggar themselves - in the hope that an airline will employ them - the beanies at the same said airlines will indeed be delighted to allow wannabes to out supply their demand.
Last edited by Old King Coal; 6th Nov 2003 at 15:44.
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Old King Coal
"So, just what is it about this, i.e. that nobody is guaranteed a job when ( maybe that should read 'if' ) you eventually qualify, that so many of you fail to understand ?"
What I fail to understand above is that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a VERY large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!
You are right, this is an industry with VERY few guarantees indeed, and facing this NEW situation where we are now supposed to give away one of those VERY few things that used to NOT be on our ACCOUNT, strongly bothers me.
Your explanation, that it is okay to go into our aviators pocket because the others do, does NOT convince me at all. THIS IS a NEW thing, we PILOTS are NOT used to pay our specific typeratings, and I DO URGE EVERYBODY TO BE AGAINST IT!!!
WHY??? Let me take a look into the future if this trend continues:
Already now they are offering "initial line experience" for those who are passed and qualified for the type (by paying £ 100,- per sector!). This means that a guy who is QUALIFIED to be EARNING the money is working NOT ONLY FOR FREE, BUT PAYING INSTEAD!!!
You do not have to be a genius to realize that the airline won't NEVER EVER give you a permanent job (and start paying you the salary) as long as there are others who will work for free and even bring in some money while doing that. IS THIS WHAT WE PILOTS WANT?
This also means that in the future, the Captain will be the only one in the cockpit who receives the salary!!! (unless they come out with some "brilliant" plan to "train" Commanders as well
What I fail to understand above is that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a VERY large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!
You are right, this is an industry with VERY few guarantees indeed, and facing this NEW situation where we are now supposed to give away one of those VERY few things that used to NOT be on our ACCOUNT, strongly bothers me.
Your explanation, that it is okay to go into our aviators pocket because the others do, does NOT convince me at all. THIS IS a NEW thing, we PILOTS are NOT used to pay our specific typeratings, and I DO URGE EVERYBODY TO BE AGAINST IT!!!
WHY??? Let me take a look into the future if this trend continues:
Already now they are offering "initial line experience" for those who are passed and qualified for the type (by paying £ 100,- per sector!). This means that a guy who is QUALIFIED to be EARNING the money is working NOT ONLY FOR FREE, BUT PAYING INSTEAD!!!
You do not have to be a genius to realize that the airline won't NEVER EVER give you a permanent job (and start paying you the salary) as long as there are others who will work for free and even bring in some money while doing that. IS THIS WHAT WE PILOTS WANT?
This also means that in the future, the Captain will be the only one in the cockpit who receives the salary!!! (unless they come out with some "brilliant" plan to "train" Commanders as well
Last edited by Aviate378; 7th Nov 2003 at 04:41.
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Aviate378 - indeed, and this ( i.e. little or no guarantees of employment ) really should be spelt out to wannabes from the outset, but unfortunately many wannabes are both naive and foolish and seem to think that it will not be they who will be the casualties of the whole process.
But boy do these supposedly smart people bleat when the game isn't going the way they'd like and the goal posts have moved along the way, i.e. they've spent the money and can't get a job - which, I'm afraid to report, many of them won't, wherein the path to the front seats of a shiny jet are stroon with fallen wannabes – these being wannabes who've often spent a small fortune, albeit of their own volition.
So, all together.....
“FROM START TO FINISH, THE WHOLE THING IS A MASSIVE GAMBLE !”
and
”There’s one born every minute !”
W.r.t. that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a very large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!.....
Then don't do it, but it's a free market economy and if others choose to then that's up to them, just as it's your choice not to partake; veritably there are risks involved with both strategies.
But boy do these supposedly smart people bleat when the game isn't going the way they'd like and the goal posts have moved along the way, i.e. they've spent the money and can't get a job - which, I'm afraid to report, many of them won't, wherein the path to the front seats of a shiny jet are stroon with fallen wannabes – these being wannabes who've often spent a small fortune, albeit of their own volition.
So, all together.....
“FROM START TO FINISH, THE WHOLE THING IS A MASSIVE GAMBLE !”
and
”There’s one born every minute !”
W.r.t. that NOW we are supposed to make a COMMITMENT and SPEND a very large sum of money for a VERY SPECIFIC type of training WITHOUT GETTING ANY KIND OF COMMITMENT BACK!.....
Then don't do it, but it's a free market economy and if others choose to then that's up to them, just as it's your choice not to partake; veritably there are risks involved with both strategies.
Last edited by Old King Coal; 6th Nov 2003 at 16:21.
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Just a question for those of you who feel you are being 'forced' 
to purchase a type rating. If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?
Another point, if as I did when I started out on my quest to become an airline pilot, I purchased a Bandeirante type rating after I received my fATPL for £3,500 is that just as abhorrent to those of you who adamantly refuse to be 'forced' to pay for a type rating?
Is it just a heavy jet type rating that you are against being purchased or is it any type rating no matter what type? I purchased my Bandit rating to give me a better chance to gain employment and it was a good move as I was flying for pay on type a week after completing the type rating. It did mean that I spent the next three and a half years flying turboprops, mostly at night, until my first jet job. I fail to understand why many of you don't plan on getting something like a turboprop rating on your licence first and then market yourselves to the many smaller operators and get some good experience and build up the necessary hours.
to purchase a type rating. If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?Another point, if as I did when I started out on my quest to become an airline pilot, I purchased a Bandeirante type rating after I received my fATPL for £3,500 is that just as abhorrent to those of you who adamantly refuse to be 'forced' to pay for a type rating?
Is it just a heavy jet type rating that you are against being purchased or is it any type rating no matter what type? I purchased my Bandit rating to give me a better chance to gain employment and it was a good move as I was flying for pay on type a week after completing the type rating. It did mean that I spent the next three and a half years flying turboprops, mostly at night, until my first jet job. I fail to understand why many of you don't plan on getting something like a turboprop rating on your licence first and then market yourselves to the many smaller operators and get some good experience and build up the necessary hours.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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MadDogDriver has actually raised two issues which are, to my mind, completely separate:
Paying for a type rating - although I agree in principal with the idea that airlines should pay for a type rating, I can also see why the current situation has arisen. Simple market forces dictate that if someone has the money to do something which they think will give them an advantage, they will do that, and the market will accomodate it. They then raise employers' expectations, until what started off as something which one or two rich people might do becomes something which everyone is supposed to do.
Then there's the completely separate issue of:
Hiring people with experience. Sorry MadDogDriver, but with respect you're talking complete crap on this one! Put yourself in an employers' shoes - you have a choice between hirnig two people, one with 250 hours on light piston engined aircraft, and one with 1500 hours, of which 500 are on the type you want him to fly. Which one do you hire? It's a no-brainer. There are no laws against it, and the reason there are no laws against it is because it's common sense. It happens in every industry - I have done a reasonable amount of CV screening in the IT industry, and if I want someone with a bit of experience then the CV of anyone who's straight out of university goes into the bin immediately.
There are three reasons why employers will hire people with no experience. The first is that there are no experienced people on the market. This is clearly not the case in aviation at the moment, and probably won't be for quite some time. But logic dictates that if no one ever hires brand new pilots then old pilots will retire or loose their medicals, and eventually the supply of experienced pilots will dry up. The next reason for hiring brand new pilots is because they are cheaper, something which is particularly important to low-cost operators. And the third is because there is no immediate chance of promotion to the left-hand seat, so experienced pilots won't be interested in the job. Those three reasons exist in every industry.
FFF
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Paying for a type rating - although I agree in principal with the idea that airlines should pay for a type rating, I can also see why the current situation has arisen. Simple market forces dictate that if someone has the money to do something which they think will give them an advantage, they will do that, and the market will accomodate it. They then raise employers' expectations, until what started off as something which one or two rich people might do becomes something which everyone is supposed to do.
Then there's the completely separate issue of:
Hiring people with experience. Sorry MadDogDriver, but with respect you're talking complete crap on this one! Put yourself in an employers' shoes - you have a choice between hirnig two people, one with 250 hours on light piston engined aircraft, and one with 1500 hours, of which 500 are on the type you want him to fly. Which one do you hire? It's a no-brainer. There are no laws against it, and the reason there are no laws against it is because it's common sense. It happens in every industry - I have done a reasonable amount of CV screening in the IT industry, and if I want someone with a bit of experience then the CV of anyone who's straight out of university goes into the bin immediately.
There are three reasons why employers will hire people with no experience. The first is that there are no experienced people on the market. This is clearly not the case in aviation at the moment, and probably won't be for quite some time. But logic dictates that if no one ever hires brand new pilots then old pilots will retire or loose their medicals, and eventually the supply of experienced pilots will dry up. The next reason for hiring brand new pilots is because they are cheaper, something which is particularly important to low-cost operators. And the third is because there is no immediate chance of promotion to the left-hand seat, so experienced pilots won't be interested in the job. Those three reasons exist in every industry.
FFF
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Danny,
What is wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work?
Call me old fashioned if you will, but if I am working for a company that is making money, why shouldn't I make money as well?
£3,500 for a Bandit rating is more affordable than £16.5k for an ATR or £18k for a 737 rating. Even a Shed rating comes in at about £10k. I would love to be able to fly a Baron/Cessna 321/Caravan 2/Seneca on single pilot IFR scaring myself ****less on a rainy February night, but the JAA rules mean that option is closed to newbies until they have reached 700hrs. We are caught in a bit of a conundrum. It is almost as though the JAA system was created *specifically* to produce 250 hour multi-crew F/O's.
If any business is founded on such slim profit margins that the staff are expected to fund the training budget, in this case by paying for a type rating, how long can that business be expected to last?
How many secretaries would the same company be able to recruit if they are expected to pay for their own training? The sums of money involved are different, but the priciple remains the same. Imagine going for an interview as an IT bod, you are offered the job, but the catch is you have to pay your own Microsoft Certified System Admin qualifications at 6,500 pounds, and you will be bonded to the company for a year, and because you are gaining experience in a sought after discipline for the first 6 months you will only be paid 5 pounds for every hour you are needed in the office. I cant imagine many people jumping at that opportunity.
I fully understand the differences between IT and aviation but a type rating is a justifiable business expense, which in my naeive view, allows the airline to make money by having people who can actually fly the aeroplanes, full of passengers, safely and efficiently.
Old King Coal/CH4, the two of you (assuming that you are two separate individuals, of course) obviously have an agenda and a business to promote, but in my humble opinion, your hectoring tone isn't doing you any favours.
What is wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work?
Call me old fashioned if you will, but if I am working for a company that is making money, why shouldn't I make money as well?
£3,500 for a Bandit rating is more affordable than £16.5k for an ATR or £18k for a 737 rating. Even a Shed rating comes in at about £10k. I would love to be able to fly a Baron/Cessna 321/Caravan 2/Seneca on single pilot IFR scaring myself ****less on a rainy February night, but the JAA rules mean that option is closed to newbies until they have reached 700hrs. We are caught in a bit of a conundrum. It is almost as though the JAA system was created *specifically* to produce 250 hour multi-crew F/O's.
If any business is founded on such slim profit margins that the staff are expected to fund the training budget, in this case by paying for a type rating, how long can that business be expected to last?
How many secretaries would the same company be able to recruit if they are expected to pay for their own training? The sums of money involved are different, but the priciple remains the same. Imagine going for an interview as an IT bod, you are offered the job, but the catch is you have to pay your own Microsoft Certified System Admin qualifications at 6,500 pounds, and you will be bonded to the company for a year, and because you are gaining experience in a sought after discipline for the first 6 months you will only be paid 5 pounds for every hour you are needed in the office. I cant imagine many people jumping at that opportunity.
I fully understand the differences between IT and aviation but a type rating is a justifiable business expense, which in my naeive view, allows the airline to make money by having people who can actually fly the aeroplanes, full of passengers, safely and efficiently.
Old King Coal/CH4, the two of you (assuming that you are two separate individuals, of course) obviously have an agenda and a business to promote, but in my humble opinion, your hectoring tone isn't doing you any favours.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 6th Nov 2003 at 21:59.
Point 1. No-one is being forced to buy any training from PPL through to a type-rating.
Point 2. If you extend the buying jobs argument, then anyone who pays for any type of training is trying to buy themselves into the marketplace. Should this be made illegal too?
Point 3.
Well, this is plainly incorrect since many of these pilots paid for much if not all of their training. You could argue that modern aspirants are much better placed to self-fund with the buoyant job market and low interest rates. It wasn't that long ago that if ma and pa didn't have the cash you had no chance. At least you can now get a job to tide you over while borrowing money at sensible rates.
Point 4. Again, not long ago, you were pretty much unemployable without, at least, 700 hrs. So I think overall it's swings and roundabouts. How would you feel about completing your CPL/IR and then told to come back when you had 700 hrs?
Bottom line is that no-one owes you a job. You've paid for much of your training and they're asking you to pay some more. It's crap but that's what market forces are all about. If you don't like it, try Cuba!
Point 2. If you extend the buying jobs argument, then anyone who pays for any type of training is trying to buy themselves into the marketplace. Should this be made illegal too?
Point 3.
Most of today's pilots with more than 3 years of line experience never had to straight-out pay for any training.
Point 4. Again, not long ago, you were pretty much unemployable without, at least, 700 hrs. So I think overall it's swings and roundabouts. How would you feel about completing your CPL/IR and then told to come back when you had 700 hrs?
Bottom line is that no-one owes you a job. You've paid for much of your training and they're asking you to pay some more. It's crap but that's what market forces are all about. If you don't like it, try Cuba!
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Danny
your option of the company paying for the type-rating and a hourly pay of 2 pounds is less risky for the wanabee airline pilot.
Because then you can take a loan for living expense for the six month period. I'd rather take a loan for a job than for a type-rating without the assurance of a job.
Greetings JB
your option of the company paying for the type-rating and a hourly pay of 2 pounds is less risky for the wanabee airline pilot.
Because then you can take a loan for living expense for the six month period. I'd rather take a loan for a job than for a type-rating without the assurance of a job.
Greetings JB
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Dear all,
How interesting are all these posts.
I must agree with Mad Dog especially regarding pilots loyalty.
How could one airline expect from his pilot loyalty when he had to pay for his own rating??
I personnaly wouldnt feel bad about giving a 2 weeks notice if I found a "better" airline.On the other hand,an airline which paid its pilots training therefore giving them them the opportunity to prove themselves and feel "wanted"and appreciated.
I would always make sure that the airline I may have to leave for any reasons doesnt get starnded without someone to take my seat.
Treat your pilots right and they will return the favor 1000 times.
Recently having had an aptitude test with an Irish Airline which if successful will pay for the training,made me realise that there are airlines out there that still have the CLASS more airlines should have.
If given the chance to work for them i will never hesitate to give them all my best during my employement..its all about loyalty!
And to answer another post..there are still plenty of QUALIFIED and EXPERIENCED crews struggling to get a job.
BRegards,
M.85
How interesting are all these posts.
I must agree with Mad Dog especially regarding pilots loyalty.
How could one airline expect from his pilot loyalty when he had to pay for his own rating??
I personnaly wouldnt feel bad about giving a 2 weeks notice if I found a "better" airline.On the other hand,an airline which paid its pilots training therefore giving them them the opportunity to prove themselves and feel "wanted"and appreciated.
I would always make sure that the airline I may have to leave for any reasons doesnt get starnded without someone to take my seat.
Treat your pilots right and they will return the favor 1000 times.
Recently having had an aptitude test with an Irish Airline which if successful will pay for the training,made me realise that there are airlines out there that still have the CLASS more airlines should have.
If given the chance to work for them i will never hesitate to give them all my best during my employement..its all about loyalty!
And to answer another post..there are still plenty of QUALIFIED and EXPERIENCED crews struggling to get a job.
BRegards,
M.85
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As initiator of this thread, I must say that I have actually been able with the cooperation of everyone to prove a point.
That Aviation has become a very hostile industry to be in. Today it is more than ever a "me, myself and I" environment. I know that in the world we live in everybody must look out for their own interest, this was always the case and will always be. But today more than a strugle it looks like a battle. We are at war with ourselves. We elbow our competitors at every chance we get in the hopes of landing the all elusive flight-deck job. We brainwash ourselvelves into thinking that, "such is life", "market conditions prevailing" or any other justification we might deem plausible to ease the frustrations we feel.
Just sample the atmosphere in aviation forums! You can feel the anger, bitternes, frustrations and plain fear in the replies posted to almost any threads, but especially those dealing with pilots on the outside. Pilots that are not employed at the moment. We fire attacks at each other, discrediting or insulting. Why do we do this? Because the current situation leads us to it.
Pilots are people first of all and they expect to be treated as such. They don't expect to be treated with white gloves or given any special treatment....No! What we expect is much more simple. That we are treated with respect, dignity and above all FAIRLY! Just this.
If a company wants you to pay for a type rating...O.k. then on the other hand commit to offering me a decent job upon succesfull completion. Like any relationship it is a give an take issue, you cannot just take in a relationship. If this is what you want you should sollicit the services of hookers....but don't expect any love with it nor for it to be a very long affair. I don't think many of us like being treated as hookers.
Another thing. It is not about new-bies or old-bies. If you have 275 hours freshly out of school or have logged 5000+ hours on heavy jet, these modern employment tendencies will effect us all in one way or the other. Even if you are employed today and feel that this does not apply to you anymore...Think again, what happens if by horrible chance your present employer goes bust or just feels like making you redundant (cut-backs you see, after all the only thing important is "share-holder equity", right?) We are all affected by this, either we like it or not.
This if why I feel that something must be done about it actively. If not, if left alone it will eventually evolve. Time changes eveything. In the future trail and error, supply and demand, hey maybe even legislation will change how hiring and training is done. But my concern is that I live now. I need a job today. I don't have the luxury of time, and many other pilots don't either. We have expenses, mouths to feed, debts to repay, mortgages etc.
Let's not point our guns at each other but at the problem.
That Aviation has become a very hostile industry to be in. Today it is more than ever a "me, myself and I" environment. I know that in the world we live in everybody must look out for their own interest, this was always the case and will always be. But today more than a strugle it looks like a battle. We are at war with ourselves. We elbow our competitors at every chance we get in the hopes of landing the all elusive flight-deck job. We brainwash ourselvelves into thinking that, "such is life", "market conditions prevailing" or any other justification we might deem plausible to ease the frustrations we feel.
Just sample the atmosphere in aviation forums! You can feel the anger, bitternes, frustrations and plain fear in the replies posted to almost any threads, but especially those dealing with pilots on the outside. Pilots that are not employed at the moment. We fire attacks at each other, discrediting or insulting. Why do we do this? Because the current situation leads us to it.
Pilots are people first of all and they expect to be treated as such. They don't expect to be treated with white gloves or given any special treatment....No! What we expect is much more simple. That we are treated with respect, dignity and above all FAIRLY! Just this.
If a company wants you to pay for a type rating...O.k. then on the other hand commit to offering me a decent job upon succesfull completion. Like any relationship it is a give an take issue, you cannot just take in a relationship. If this is what you want you should sollicit the services of hookers....but don't expect any love with it nor for it to be a very long affair. I don't think many of us like being treated as hookers.
Another thing. It is not about new-bies or old-bies. If you have 275 hours freshly out of school or have logged 5000+ hours on heavy jet, these modern employment tendencies will effect us all in one way or the other. Even if you are employed today and feel that this does not apply to you anymore...Think again, what happens if by horrible chance your present employer goes bust or just feels like making you redundant (cut-backs you see, after all the only thing important is "share-holder equity", right?) We are all affected by this, either we like it or not.
This if why I feel that something must be done about it actively. If not, if left alone it will eventually evolve. Time changes eveything. In the future trail and error, supply and demand, hey maybe even legislation will change how hiring and training is done. But my concern is that I live now. I need a job today. I don't have the luxury of time, and many other pilots don't either. We have expenses, mouths to feed, debts to repay, mortgages etc.
Let's not point our guns at each other but at the problem.