Those who are always happy to criticize management... If you dont like management of your airline why are you still there? You can quit any time. Or you were happy with management as long as they were paying you salary? Don't you think that airline buncrupcy hits management as it hits you or even worse.

If you are telling that management of this particular airline always been a bunch of idiots who have no clue how to run an airline why you joined them or not left them year ago?

There are always 2 sides of the story.

I worked for Cougar and as far as I can tell KN is an xxxxxx from Dudley who has no idea of how to run an airline.The few times I have seen him I was less than impressed. Everybody says look what a job he did at Sabre but if he was that clever why didn't he go to Excel with the rest of the management of Sabre or was it they didn't want him.The 2 cargo a/c went to Tucson , its a strange place to send a/c that are urgently needed for another contract. My guess is he wasn't paying his bills which he was fomous for.Yes I am bitter he owes me money !

Fossils....
 

Dear Miss T fayed you're damm right....

cargo one & one world seems to belong to those dinosaur species that drain our economy.....
Mister Freud would be interested with those individuals they both identify themself as " ONE " cargo or world that says a lot ....... no wonder !!!
one should go back to school and start spelling properly "buncrupcy" before addressing us a lecture

Hey Miss T stand firm !

Pax vobiscum

Ladies & Gents, I detect this thread becoming personal. Discuss/argue the subject by all means, but attack the argument not the person.

Thanks
CR2

Those who like to point spelling or typing mistakes to others should go to language issues discussion forum I think.
International forums assuming non-native english speakers, and before one sending me to school I would like to ask how many languages he knows. English is my 3rd language and I honestly think that for the person who using 5 languages on daily basis my English is quite fluent.

Returning to the topic, no doubt that many of us fail to see/undestand/accept the second side of any story and pretend to use own opinion as the one and only true.

CR2 point taken but these people have been shafted by one person who openly said he would look after them. He's a cxxxx and that's a fact.

Mes excuses
 

cargo ONE tout le monde peut se tromper, et je ne suis pas le dernier...
Bist du uberrascht ???das war kein schlecht Idee als ich kann auch Deutsch reden , schreiben und selbtverstandlich sprechen...bist du ja zu frieden ?
You are right we all do mistake ....one of the reason they send us in to Simulator training on a regular basis,I wish that the same professional approach prevail one day at management level......

Gruss Gott, au revoir, asta pronto, ciao, sayonara, dasvidania, ma salama !

der Auslander

Well, predictable responses when a few home truths are pointed out. I am just challenging the views of those posters who have obviously descended into comfortable stereotypes and tarred their viewpoints with a very simplistic outlook,

Management = Bad
Aircrew = Good

What a childish way of looking at things. Miss "T" where did I say I don't expect ethics from management? Seeing as you obviously have not read the comments I made, I'll repeat them to you,
FACT: Thare are two sides to every story. Now that might not fit into your comfortable and safe way of looking at the world, but it DOES not make it untrue. Have you been through bankruptcy proceedings? I have seen at close quarters and it is a horrendous experience. The idea that the owners/managers will walk away with a "sackfull of cash" is ludicrous and it is a fact that long after the closure, when pilots are flying for new airlines and have long forgotten about the airline, the owners will still be chased by creditors and lawyers and will still be going through the courts.

I have a foot in both camps, I'm retired a few years, my last job was Captain on the 747-400F, I'm involved with an airline having invested money and taken a postion with them. And after looking at this business close up I can tell you by far the easier option is sitting at FL350 scratching your arse, drinking a coffee and letting the FMC fly the Flight plan. This business is extremly difficult and when times are bad, there comes a point where you can no longer juggle the money to try and fend off creditors. It all comes to a halt.

So Miss T, try and actually read what people write, where did I say I objected to a womans point of view???
I hope you don't conduct your business in the same hysterical manner!

Oneworld22
By owning running your own airline you have certain resposibilities to the staff you Employ. I know there are Good crew and bad crew but the same must go for management. I think you will find most of the people at Cougar would be happy if they were just paid for the work they have allready done.Yes it would be nice to get notice pay etc but all we want is money we have earned!
So why if it is so difficult being the boss with so much to lose why do you invest your money in airlines?
By the way we never had coffee and whats an FMC these were 727s you know

Stagecoach, of course there is good and nad managers as there are good and bad aircrew. That's my point, that there are two sides to all this. I'm trying to challenge the conventional view held by so many that it's always management that's at fault and pointing out the realties of what happens when things go wrong. I invested because it was a good investment, still is if the business climate picks up. I don't own the airline or anything, I work in the commercial side. Seeing close up the pressures that exist for the owner though, is a real eye opener, believe me. And that's the risk in business, if it works out you can earn a lot of money, but if it doesn't you're liable to lose everything. That's the part people never focus on of course, they will always look at the successfil businessman and tut-tut the big money they will make, but will never look at the huge amount of failures that occur all the time.

Yawn...yawn...yawn !!!
 

Here we go again....a new lecture
Mister OOOOONNNNEEE world !!!! please give us a break.....!
Ted, I' m gonna walk the dog !!!

Lets say..........
 

Lets say you were KN and you put all you got into starting up your own airline. It aint easy, no one says it is, but you put your best foot forwrd and get it up and running. You aint got limitless funds to do it and cash flow has to be stretched to the limits as no one in aviation pays up front.

You provide jobs and training along the way and shoulder the burden when things dont go to plan. Yer customers smile one day and boot you out the next. You have to keep going and you cant please all the geezers all of the time.

As an employee, all you have to worry about is when your next pay cheque is coming. As KN, there must be thousands of things going around your head each night as you put the job to bed.
You might argue that if you make your bed, then you must lie in it but after all that has gone on, do you think that if no one bothered sticking their kneck out, then a lot of people wouldnt have had the experience of a job in aviation?

You joined, you flew and you got payed. When it all went wrong you lost a months salary. If you lost more than that, then perhaps you should have made a move earlier. The ministry of self importance raises it ugly head here when you read these posts. Lots of self opiniated, ego trip people who think the world owes them a favour and just because they have a bit of paper to say they made the effort to be a crew member:it doesnt give you the right to think that you are Gods gift to aviation.

Being shafted by a company is one thing, but shafting a company that has for the main part, done you some service is bang out of order.

Get a life.

Coop

3000psi, whoever the hell you are, if you represent the standard of pilot that Cougar employed, no wonder the airline went under!

What poor airline are you now pestering for a job? God help them........

Why not try and respond to points made and read other points of view? I hope you don't behave like this in the cockpit.

coopervane, well put.

coopervane yeh, like how much he should keep for himself and stash in the bank and how much NOT to pay his staff......;)

Well Said!!!!!!!
 

Viking 9 and 3000 PSI, Well Said Guys!:E :ok: ;)







Cool 4 Cats:cool:

Coopervane
Are you a relative of KN or are you sleeping with him as you allways come out with how good he is. If you have not worked for Cougar you would not know what really went on . I can tell you that 99% of the crews ,ops , and grd engs gave 110% to get the airline going and make it a good place to work. I can assure you that KN will not be a porper , If you look at the charge for the company KN put very little in as it go's most of the things were tied to banks.He still has his Motorbike racing team and that can not be cheap

No i dont sleep with him.

I worked for Sabre.

He gave me a break for which I will always be grateful.

He had the motor bike team before Cougar.....but I guess u worked that one out as its called SABRE RACING Derrrrrrrrr

And I still stand by what I said.

So if you have moved on to a new airline, why not move on and slag them off. You seem to be good at it.

Coop.

PS I dont have rose coloured glasses, I am just in touch with the real world.

:ok:
PPS And I guess when he starts up again you wont be applying
PPPS. Regarding what KN put in to Cougar ...seem to remember him purchasing November Delta, and the two Miami Air 727s not to mention paying for the Super 27 conversion from the proceeds of the sale of Sabre to Excel. A minor detail.

Sub-standard pilot
 

Sorry if I offended you...
your approach is way too subjective to be of interest to others, like coopervane what's your point ?!?! what are you trying to tell us both..... your lack of tact and consideration towards my colleagues and their family landed flat on this topic .
as far as the crew standard is concern , yes they were all far better than me..... they did not resign !!!

Coopervane
Non of the Cougar a/c were owned by KN If you checked the name plates they were all owned by american banks.The engines were owned by BF Goodrich as we know.If you check the accounts for the company you will see KN did invest some money but not a lot by airline standards.
His motorbike racing company is Sabre sports actually eeeerrrrr!
I can understand that if he let you become an F/E with Sabre you are gratefull but I am sure you do not know the facts about Cougar.I'm sure in the past you have not been shafted by an airline but I can tell you when you are you will change your mind.

3000psi & Miss T Fayed, well said, 3000psi is a first class class pilot you could not ask for a better person and pilot and yes please forgive him with his English its not his first language but speaks three languages that I know of! Thats better than me.

Yes I agree with most of you "posters" except oneworld and coopervane.

It is unfortunate that cougar went down but all who worked there saw the writing on the wall and just hoped that the inevitable would not come. In the end all we want is to be paid what we are owed and earned and move on!
SEE YOU IN COURT!

727 MAN -You Hit The Nail On The Head!
 

727 MAN - Well Said!



SEE YOU IN COURT!!!




We're all counting the Days Now!

Lets Take our time on this one, one day at a Time!:p


Cool 4 Cats!:cool:

Hey Coop, stop winding people up and get the pre-flight done on Charlie Alpha, we are off for a pint in Tel-Eviv !!!! Hurry up man.....:) :ok:

Some very interesting points of view. If only we lived in an ideal world where all motives were altruistic.

Individuals, groups and organizations start businesses for one reason only, TO MAKE MONEY. I'm afraid that you have to "speculate in order to accumulate", and the resources required includes financial funding, workers, capital assets etc., etc., etc. A statement of the obvious, but, BUSINESSES NEED WORKERS AND WORKERS NEED JOBS! QED!

It's also obvious that there are many facets to managing a business. This includes an understanding of the VARIOUS components required to ensure good cash flow. Sorry, but if one feels that the task is too onerous, then as they say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"!

Effectively management of a business, or the crew on an aircraft, should rely on mutal trust (creditibility). In reality, some overcome this in the short-term by motivating staff with larger than normal wages.

And Coopervane, I agree with you, if you don't like the company then get out. But, unless the "supply and demand" cycle is in your favour, can you you tell me how that can be achieved? Easy to say though, eh?

I understand from one of the Cougar guys that the two areoplanes were contracted to TNT. So, unless TNT reneged on their payments, the company should have had good cash flow. But, what was the cost base? And and and and and ???????????

Guys, is the company in Administrative Receivership, or is it operating under an Administrative Order? Different things. You all need expert legal opinion to determine whether your treatment has adhered to recognised procedure.

I wish you all well, especially in finding new employment. But, don't ever be grateful to any company for simply employing you, because they also NEED you to enable them to function, and so create wealth ( shareholder valve ).

One World, on the face of it, you've made some reasonable points. In my opinion however, they are rather simplistic, and I am sure that you don't apply the same approach in your commercial negotiations. Ultimately though, you completely devalue your contribution with the crass statements in your last post. Okay. it's summer, too many G&Ts, and the wife's nagging. Forgiven.

No, I've never worked for the mentioned NK. I am a Captain with a "major", a qualified accountant, and a Director in a couple of my family (non aviation) businesses. But I am still learning new things every day!

I've just wasted my time with the last post! Thanks Inverted Flik, that Cooper vane is a card!

Nice one! What a winderupper you are Coopervane, you naughty boy! Have one for me when you get there.

Sounds like a really funng guy so have a great stop Inverted Flick.

Happy flying.

yes 2 cargo aircraft were flying for TNT and were good payers, or as good as anyone else :bored: As for good cash flow, I suspect it flowed into someone's pocket (or pockets) :mad:

STAGECOACHDRIVER

Talking of the motorcycle racing team, the new "mansion" just down the road on the A120 looks better every day too? Must still be money around somewhere? Say no more.

If you are involved in a work related incident as an employee there will usually be an investigation to determine the cause.

Likewise, the law enables a similar recourse if there is any suspicion of management wrongdoing. This can involve the DTI, the Serious Fraud Office and even the CAA, to name but a few.

In some circumstances, directors, and managers can also be found personally liable. There are very clear legal responsibilities imposed on directors, and even a Limited company will not afford protection to any violators.

You folks really need the service of a specialist solicitor who can guide you through the necessary procedures for the advancement of your case.

IT IS YOUR LEGAL RIGHT.

Good luck.

Stage Coach Driver
 

I,ve been shafted on more than one occasion and still smile.......you should try it.

I admit I dont have Cougar's books to scrutinise but I know that KN did own ND and NI at Sabre as I was involved in engineering at the time. The American 727's were his at one point and I suppose like many others he sold them and leased them back.

I said my piece so good luck with the job hunting as thats what I need at the moment!

Coop

CooperCargoOneWorld!
 

Same !!!!e, Same plan for Future Cougar set up, Hey? :yuk:





Cool 4 Cats:cool:

ATLANTIC AIRLINES AND TU204F
 

Just saw that Atlantic Airlines CVT are applying to the UK CAA to takeover the management deal of the SU- reg (egyptian regd) TU204F aircraft that fly for TNT.
This was/still is being done under the auspices of Cougar.:8

Everyone is having a go at KN .OK he is the ultimate guy to have a go at but what about the little guy who was supposedly in charge of the pilots and their welfare. I hear he is still there and getting paid sounds a bit strange.:ok:

The WEE Man!
 

Well Papa Noel, there's eight Pages on this thread on Freight Dogs alone!

So I am sure THE WEE MAN, is checking his underwear quite often!Little *****

:mad:


Cool 4 Cats:cool:

papa noel maybe the little guy is learning Egyptian ;)

Gawd!
 

Papa Noel

Your biterness is blinding.

You give to much credit to Capt F.
Capt Fossil and Obergrupenfuhrer/Chief petty officer DH probaly had a lot to do with the end of Cougar as well as a few others but only in an indirect and incompetent way.

I think it is safe to say that only one man at Cougar knew what was realy going on and only one man has all the answers.

He has got away with it. Court action etc none of you will get him that way.

It would appear that everyone except KN are losing sleep and money over the demise of Cougar.

If you are that pis*&d at him and want revenge.

You all know where he lives ( you can't miss it).


Go kill his carp!



The end.



EXXon-Valdez

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

I wouldn't waste my time or energy on any of them. We all know who is to blame but the best thing to do is to move on. What goes around will always come around..........:ok:

Omnes vulnerant sed ultima necat.....
 

EXXon valdez,

Macte Animo Generose Puer , Sic Itur Ad Astra !!!j(':suspect:')

Could this Capt Fossil be the down market Del Boy character from up north? Fan of the Inland Revenue?

Beware of working for Bodge It and Scarper Airlines.

What a shame, no tears shed here though.
Suprised they managed to keep going this long.
Sure to be another buget, bodged airline with the same people to start up soon.
Wonder if the management can get along and run a company properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P!s up ion a brewery comes to mind :D :D :D :D

You will all find out very soon!

parcelpuppy you involved too then ?? God help aviation if this "wee man" is who I think it is.......:mad:

bacardi walla,

Not involved. Just 1 of 258 creditors keeping a very close eye on every little detail of this scam.