Layinlow : I'm sorry bud, I don't get it. I stood up for you and this is how you treat me? I do wear my battlestar; with pride.

Quit Laying Low. Get up and move on!

Atlas/Polar
 

The issue with Atlas, Polar, Management and ALPA is not a unique situation. It is a window into things to come… and ALPA National is doing its best to avoid stoppages in its major income sources.

Atlas and Polar are fairly small entities. If ALPA was a real corporation, these two problem children would be tax write-offs or even perhaps a charitable donation. But they represent more to ALPA as the major airlines become 2 or 3 mega-carriers. Atlas and Polar cannot ever be seen as a smooth merger attempt. They are the message sent to the mega-carriers that smooth mergers will never occur.

Atlas/Polar have an even heavier burden for ALPA- the Cato factor. Mr. Cato was considered for a higher position with a real airline as his management techniques, while quite unusual, were effective. Mass firings and brutal divisive tactics against a unified labor force, formed a pattern that ALPA did not want to face at their major sources. Now, with an incompetent merger process marred with delays, labor strife, and severe financial losses, Mr. Cato has been effectively “contained” at Atlas/Polar, FOREVER! (President Reagan’s prized tactic is extremely effective, but slow in results.) Keep this disciple of Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn in a position where he cannot harm the real airlines!

So, Atlas/Polar is the front line defense in the upcoming merger process where airlines will become like Walmart… U-mart Air, D-mart Air, and NW-mart Air, are all pervasive entities of the future. ALPA National would rather contain them now - Launch the drones!

Atlast
 

Excuse me, battle star ? Where and when did you walk ? We all eagerly wait your answer. If you earned it, now you throw it away for Teamsters ! You make us laugh in the industry.

Good question. I know it wasn't Miami. The only Atlas brother didn't walk but did refuse to cross the line. He was fired, then rehired and is a Captain.
Great guy too. The others, embarked and disembarked at the back of the building. Maybe they were walking there and we just didn't know it. The Miami Springs PD limited us to the front of the building. I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt.

Rob Rilly : Not only did I refuse to cross your virtual picket line at JFK Bldg 23 you guys got it all on video! AND when the Port Authority Police arrived and declared it a non legal picket line, I still refused even after the Police sent your video team packing. The Connie crew just went straight in to work but we supported you. I don't know what else short of physically bleeding you really want? MOVE ON, because the Industry is not laughing WITH you.

When and if we go to Teamsters I shall take the pin off and replace it with a Teamsters pin because that's what you do when you are in a professional union that the majority of your Brothers & Sisters have voted for. MOVE ON!

BB. BATTLE STAR PINS
SOURCE - Executive Board May 2000
A Master Executive Council, with approval of the Executive Council, may authorize those members who have engaged in a strike against management of that MEC's airline to wear ALPA "Battle Star" pins.
However, no MEC may retroactively authorize or rescind a “Battle Star” authorized by a previous MEC.

To take break from the usual BS here, I thought I would forward some stuff the Polar guys probably don't get from their MEC. We got it on the Atlas side when it was CC'd to the Atlas MEC.

Open Letter to Henderson from Cato in PDF. Mostly on a response to Mr. Henderson's VARS of 04-18-2008. Pretty long and detailed.

Oh, just got this one also.

Press Release of Atlas MEC Chairman Dave Bourne becoming Teamsters Airline Division Director.

Release 05-1-2008 in PDF

Memo form James P Hoffa on it
Memo in PDF

Over 200 Polar Guys got that e-mail, so are you special..... Get over yourself , Nitty!

Sorry to tell you this but, The Industry has LAUGHED at Atlas for a few years now. Since you signed that contract !

Dave's rushing the new frat...what won't he do or say to get what he wants? This will be costly.

Rob Rilly: You certainly come out with some inane stuff but,
is certainly an inane rejoinder.
I look around at other airmen's CBA's and some are good, some are bad, some parts are desirable BUT I would NEVER LAUGH at another professional pilot's CBA . To do so would be the very definition of UNPROFESSIONALISM.
As I said earlier, " the Industry is not laughing WITH you "

MOVE ON!

nitty-gritty : Thanks for putting out the information, good or bad, for all to see and make either informed comment upon or otherwise. :D

cptvac: So you're saying that the new Director of the Airline division of the IBT knowing your particular airline intimately is a bad thing? It will be costly how?

Quit dipping into the broth of inanity and contribute something. MOVE ON!

Dave MUST deliver the Atlas crewmembers to the Teamsters, otherwise he will not have his position for long. Conflict of interest? Dave will promise the world to Atlas crewmembers because of his new position.

The cost will be high to the Teamsters, to ALPA and Polar in the coming Single Carrier battle, and highest of all to the Atlas crewmembers who will make great sacrifices in their leap of faith to benefit a select few. Clear?

Polyp: There certainly is some bickering but also some healthy dialogue in between that hopefully will enable US to move on. That "Real" airline quote
however belongs in the broth of inanity. At the current time, your so called,
" Real " airlines are all bleeding billions of dollars. The cargo carriers are faring from a little to a lot better.

CptVac: Do you really think Dave's new position hinges solely upon Atlas crewmembers coming over? Do you not think it may have something to do with his ability to do the job?
Cost to Teamsters? What cost?
Cost to ALPA? They don't want us. Read their stated position on ACMI carriers.
Cost to Polar? What cost? We'll support you; we just won't be paying for you.
Cost to Atlas crewmembers? No cost, we're moving on!

After I stopped laughing I actually felt bad for the average Atlas crew member. Dave Bourne is a masterful politician to say the least. He has leveraged his pilot group into a new position for himself all the while selling the union members a promise. I know the people on the board are die hard Bourne fans, however, he really used you guys to gain a position for himself. It won't matter what the final vote is, he already demonstrated his capability for the teamsters. He will be there for awhile. What you have to ask yourself is what can he really do for you? There is only so much money allocated towards airlines at the teamsters, I was one at another airline. We never saw them or much money from them. I cannot wonder how the Atlas pilots will not feel used and betrayed. Good luck with the revolt.

Jocko 2000 : Dave has not led " the revolt ". There is no feeling of being used or of betrayal. I'm looking forward to the future; knowing the head of your union is a freightdog is a good thing. Prater & ALPA are anti-ACMI. Teamsters can not be worse. My last outfit was Teamsters and I look forward to the future. Even if " the revolt " is not successful, we are sending a message. WE'RE MOVING ON!

My apologies Atlast, I meant the revolt from the crew members who will have felt used. I appreciate the fact of moving on. I agree with you on that aspect. I agree with and have said it before about putting the strike behind us. Trust me, for all our sakes, I hope everything works out for you guys for we are intertwined. For any Polar or Atlas guy to wish ill will on the other is only self defeating. Who knows the Teamsters could be a good thing, but you have to admit that the timing on all this is a little fishy. Someone once told me a saying and I think it is probably correct, "Perception is reality". Watch what people perceive because that is going to be the reality they accept. All in all, good luck.

jocko2000 True dat!:ok:

Sir or Madam,
I meet you halfway, as i am in fact, no believer in coincidence either. However, about "Perception is reality". Remember that your perception is tainted by your judgement, which is changeable and that "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Fancy ways of saying, "We'll see!"

REVOLTING and MOVING ON!

"I can’t believe all this bickering between the crews of these two freight carriers. I work for a “real” airline; one that carries passengers."

Chris, How dare you! and with your stock at $5.06 and ours at $62.00 :=

Nitty letter was from Cato. 'Nuff said

Mr. Polyp, As of 1400 Z today AAWW $62.49 JBLU $4.98 Guess all of those pax make the big $$ yup!:D

Moving On...
 

layinlow: We all appreciate getting to look at these documents. In the furtherance of truth and the understanding of other Professional Pilots, why don't you post them instead? I'm sure Nitty would appreciate the break and allow him to MOVE ON.

Interesting, in a Kevin Bacon way or maybe not:

'Nuff Said is attributed to Stan Lee from Marvel Comics. Marvel comics emerged from a company called Atlas Comics.

Nice catch!
On the serious side though. Over the years the Atlas MEC and those on this forum have touted how the Atlas MEC has done this for them, done that for them, has an inroads to various ALPA committees, I could go on and on. Now we know that this was all poppycock. If I were and Atlas crew member I would ask how my money was being spent, and how much real effort was being made my Bourne in my behalf while he was in behind the scenes scheming. You don't really believe this came out of the blue do you? This had to be a long process. Given the close relationship with Cato and the council, I would be very careful in jumping into the bed with those two (didn't you throw out one of your committee chairman when you found him to be a Cato mole?). Come on now, why did Cato send a letter meant for the Polar MEC to the Alas MEC?
If the Atlas crews jump to the Teamsters, that is their choice, I just hope they do it with their eyes wide open. To me, there is something definitely rotten and stinks to high heaven. Whether it is Bourne/Cato, Bourne Teamsters,Bourne/Teanmsters/Cato, or something else, don't let your exasperation with the slow pace of the Polar negotiations cloud your good judgement. Things are never, ever, greener on the other side of the fence. And if after all that, you feel it is your best interest, bon voyage!

Give me a Break!!!!!
 

rob rilly


If they're laughing, it's not too loud. I'm willing to compare W2's with a lot of other industry guys, who have endured furloughs, pay and benefit cuts, downsizing due to the cost of rising fuel. At Atlas Air, we did not furlough or cut pay while in babkruptcy, we're still hiring, getting 2 more 400's this year and will be taking delivery of brand new 747-8's in a little over 2 years from now, our stock is at an all time high, and lets not forget our record profit sharing checks $$$$$

I'll admit our CBA is not the best, but I'm willing to work with our MEC to get a better contract next time around, would have been better if we were a combined work force to take on the company, but many polaroids think they're better off going it alone...good luck

Moving On...
 

Trash hauler: Considering what a crappy contract we have, I and others, believe our MEC has done a great job.
As for where our dues money is going, it would appear that an extremely large chunk of it is going indirectly to the Polar MEC. We however keep paying because that is what Union brothers and Sisters do.
As for the copies of Cato's letters to our MEC, it's Cato mileage. He's extremely good at what he does. The old divide, conquer, manipulate routine. If he thought he could get an extra millimeter of leverage, he'd do it in a Purchase minute. Come on, think about it; you know the guy. One little CC to our MEC has got you wound up a little more than that millimeter eh? He's winning.
As for Dave's new position, I think he's going to be great and to have the head of the airline division know your position first hand is a tremendous boon. As to how he got there, is it not analogous with being at an airline and sending your resume out to other airlines? Ever done that?
As for greener on the other side, we're about fed up with how ALPA has paved over our yard. WE'RE MOVING ON!


Oh by the way, trash hauler is an anagram of ATLAS ERR HUH!;)

I have friends at most of the majors, and they don't find my Atlas pay and schedule to be a funny matter at all. For example I am making more, and home more, than one guy who is a United Checkairman--and been there longer than I have been at Atlas.

And then there is this. My pay at Atlas: $172/hour plus 13% profit sharing. If I were at Polar: $147.

The Polar pilot group, or parts of it, have always looked down on Atlas. And then they got bought by them when they were expecting to "save" United, FDX or UPS. All this noise flows from that.

742 Well Son, as you get older you'll find money wasn't everything. Quality of life would have been better. Good Luck to you. I got mine, retired to play golf.

moving On...
 

Rob Rilly: Congratulations to you. This is not an easy job to navigate through to the other side. Enjoy your Golf; I'm pleased that YOU'VE MOVED ON.:ok:

.

Jan: Home for 17 days.
Feb: Home for 16 days (Airline Feb, one day from Jan and Mar included).
Mar: Home for 15 days.
Apr: Home for 14 days.

Good luck in retirement.

:ok:Cato can send the Polar pilots to the top of the world ... His fuel bill will soar to the same height.

I could see that happening very easily.

Then they would move the flying to someone else as they have done in the past.

Merging would probably solve this whipsawing between the groups that has been going on since Polar was purchased so many years ago. Worked to Polar's advantage at one time when they thought their scope clause would allow them to gain others flying and keep it for themselves -forever- not thinking that it was going to happen to them later on during their negotiations. The scope clause only changed slightly the tactics the holding company uses on moving the flying back and forth.

And it will continue until we are merged.

"Ultimatum" and "Conspiracy". How incredibly accurate.

Moving On...
 

cptvac: Sir/ Madam,
I'm not sure if our understandings are the same, but it seems like we are starting to agree. Perhaps we are starting TO MOVE ON and it's all due to BOURNE, albeit Jason! :ok:

Moving On...
 

BettyLou: This is not the posting of a Professional Pilot!

I believe that if you have a problem, redress is thru your MEC via your CBA.
Remember, " MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME "

MOVE UP & MOVE ON!

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!

Moving On...
 

BillyBob521: What sort of rejoinder is that? What exactly are you referring to? If you are looking for an answer, please ask a question; If you are posting a rumor, please be a Professional Pilot. WE'RE MOVING ON! JOIN US.

I wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole. Good luck been with teamsters seen it, it sucks. Make sure you have you teamsters Fee I think it is 150$ to join then you pay your dues. I hope it works out for you and your professional pilots!

Moving On...
 

Excellent reply BillyBob521; there's nothing like good healthy discussion and I believe you have contributed nothing like good healthy discussion.
I could be wrong, so why don't you explain your position? Isn't it something to do with a black kettle on the end of a 10 foot pole? I'm sure there is a Professional Pilot link in there somewhere.
Anyway, we appreciate your recognition of our professionalism and we're sure it will work out because WE'RE MOVING ON!

A phrase by Polar to support Bobb ! How cute......Now you are Movin' On

Too funny

Moving On...
 

:=I don't think so!

Rob Rilly:
" MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME " was uttered during Southern Air Transport's drive to unionize (The original SAT) back in '97/'98 and I don't think we were the original coiners of the phrase then! I've still got some of the little round stickers somewhere. It predates Bobb by a long stretch!

WE REALLY ARE MOVING ON!:D

Incidentally, POLAR first started by bootstrapping off of Southern's Certificate. Now there's a link!