Sounds like Fedex and DHL are trying to work out a deal.

Thanks
 

Dear Sapco2,

Thanks for the kind sentiment. Hopefully things will work out well for all of us on both sides of the Atlantic who make their living from those funny yellow packages!

Hey guys, read the date of the article, its Calender Week 6. At that time Zumwinkel was still CEO and rumours were rife. All was supposed to be revealed in March but, due to the turmoil at the top, a wishy washy holding statement came out and more is now expected in May. And, no, DHL cannot afford to give up the US completely, it just needs to stop it bleeding the rest of the company dry.

RT

If the right plan is set into place DHL should do fine in the US market. The people DHL has to worry about is the AAWW management when it comes to bleeding the company dry. A very few AAWW "leeches" could do alot of damage if you let them. Be careful DHL !! VERY CAREFUL !!!!

MEC Jumps Ship!
 

Wow, Bourne (Atlas MEC Chairman ) jumps ship.

If you say so.

Yes, it looks like he has. I believe his good-by video is Here on You Tube.

Dave was one of the few within the upper levels of ALPA that had any level of integrity for the job he was elected to do, despite all of the years of B.S. favoritism for votes council to council at ALPA National that elected the latest President (P).

Maybe he could see the writing on the wall one way or another. Of course, it could have been ALPA National cutting him off at the knees at every turn for a more favored non ACMI council.

Maybe it is the new effort to get rid of ALPA National at Atlas Air for Nationals lack of support? Just got one of their mailings tonight. Pretty convincing info.



USAPA was first, maybe Atlas is next. Time will tell.

Hard to maintain your ALPA position when you are at the center of the Teamsters organizing effort (in violation of ALPA by-laws)...

Wonder if the Atlas membership will follow him over so he (and a couple of others) can get the jobs they really want and Cato is satisfied. Again.

Working together...

Lets see. A pilot group with large numbers of PanAm, TWA and former regional pilots....

I will tell you this. I have not heard one word--not one word--in support of ALPA in the past few days. Not from guys who fought the Eastern battle to the bitter end, not from guys with 20+ years of ALPA committee work, not from guys who were instrumental in getting ALPA onto the Atlas property in the first place. Not one word.

And it is not just Atlas. It was not long ago that the idea of a USAirways, Northwest or United leaving ALPA was unthinkable. Now all of them may be gone in short order. And it all comes down to ALPA's butchering of mergers.

Bottom line.
 

The bottom line at ALPA is that the older guys feel they got sold out on their retirements and the younger guys feel they got sold out on Age 65.

Everyone is a loser with ALPA!

:ok:

I'll tell you this, I am not an ALPA fan. I was at TWA before American and they haven't changed a bit. Trying to play both sides. But to suggest they are favoring one over the other is just plain nuts. Let's see, Polar has an iron-clad scope clause, Atlas does not. Atlas files section 8 charges against the Polar MEC then resigns. Polar goes on strike and get little support from ALPA or Atlas (and don't give me the old line, let me see the names of those who walked the line with us or who refused to cross the line, so far I see a handful). Now the Atlas MEC up and resigns leaving the union, in the middle of several grievances, leaving the section 8 charges in the wind, and Cato happy. Yep you guys have one great council there. Polar, on the other hand has a working MEC, several grievances that support our CBA, nothing more, nothing less, and 100% support from those furloughed and working. Sorry guys, I think Polar has the better deal, no matter what the outcome.
I cannot believe that this will not believe that this will turn into another delaying tactic.

Layinlow - You don't even work for Polar anymore so to debate you is pointless. Your entire post is incorrect - the entire thing. Time to go back to your desk at FedEx - I wonder, are you using company computers to post here? One small point once again - the "iron clad" scope clause hinges on one phrase. That phrase is "complete operational merger." It doesn't look so iron clad to me in light of the structure of the company.

Captvac - well they finally let you back on here. But once again you couldn't be more wrong. I suppose you are crowing about your (lack of) section 8 findings. That's ok. I guess using 800,000 dollars of ALPA money to file a resolution to take flying away from your ALPA brothers, brothers who contributed to that 800k - to actually harm their pilot group is your idea of solidarity. It ain't mine.

Dave resigned because ALPA owes us almost 300K for money our council spent to support the Polar strike. And no matter how many forensic accountings we do (four at last count) they agree that they owe it to us but refuse to pay it.

He resigned because he is getting NO support from ALPA national. They have even cut off all funding to our council. Hard to attend to grievances with no money.

He resigned because ALPA national is allowing Polar to use an outside attorney to drive this whole buggy and when Atlas files a grievance it gets ignored. Or when Dave attempts to talk to Prater he will not even return an MEC chairmans phone calls or e-mails or even registered letters.

He resigned because his constituents gave him a mandate to explore another union (by majority vote) and he didn't like the conflict of interest that this engendered.

He resigned in recognition that he might be part of the issue - the issue of a lack of contract driven by Bobb and Robin that has cost all of us millions of dollars in bargaining power. I wonder if Bobb would have the stones to do that. I doubt it.

He resigned because ALPA national is going down fast - they don't want cargo pilots in their group. Not Polar, not Atlas. They want to be a legacy passenger airline union. Fine with us - we will go away. But wait they say - we NEED your dues money so we can pay Polar's attorney - hmmmmmmm........

I call on Bobb to have the same sort of integrity that Dave has shown.

What about Bobb?

Just a little perspective here.

Atlas total annual ALPA council union budget is around $230K and has about 700 pilots. All Atlas grievances are done by in house ALPA contract administrators (lawyers) by ALPA National funding mandate. Atlas just recently received more budget cuts from National. All travel expenses were recently stopped. Previously agreed upon payment from ALPA National for expenses during our sympathy for Polar have gone unpaid. An amount in excess of the Atlas councils annual budget.

Polar on the other hand was approved (by most likely President Prater himself due to its amount) $800k just for an outside lawyer one years billings which is outside normal ALPA guidelines. $800K for an outside lawyer before we even mention Polars normal budget for their council of @170 crewmembers. Looks like someone has a buddy in high places that don't like ACMI guys and an Executive Administrator from Northwest who has an interest in getting the DHL flying back to NWA.

Looks like ALPA National could get hit with a Duty of Fair Representation lawsuit (DFR) here.

Probably easier and quicker to just decertify ALPA since we have so many fair weather friends there and it looks like that is going to happen.

http://atlasforteamsters.com

Sorry
 

:ok:Sorry Whale, I have no dog in this fight, and I am new to this forum, but it seems ya'll rolled the dice and lost so your trying to move your game to another table. So sorry, enjoy your battle stars the Polar crew members won for you!

hmmm.... well lets examine my "loss." I am a Captain at a growing airline with expanding flying, airplanes on order, a huge route structure, and based where I want to be based.

And the Polar guys - down to 5 airplanes by fall. Everyone based in ANC by September. Very small and shrinking route structure and limited or no opportunities to upgrade with possible furloughs in June.

You're right I lost....

But lets think about this for a min. If we had NOT had the Robbobin show, we all would have been merged and BOTH groups as ONE would have been negotiating for a contract well over a year ago - in an expanding or growing economy. Instead we are BOTH losers because of the robobbin pride effect. We are both going to be (together anyways I might add) negotiating for our pay raises and new contract in the current economy.

So tell me again who lost and who won? Seems to me that boobroobin created a situation where there are NO winners - except the company who must be dancing an Irish jig when they think about it. The ONLY loss is to ALL crewmembers both Polar and Atlas.

Thanks Bobb
Thanks Robin
Thanks Mark

from those you have royally screwed.

Got to thinking about it a little. If ALPA does as they did with USAPA and AWA, they will declare that the Atlas and Polar groups as a single carrier to try and counter the decertification vote by combining them and keep the dues paying Atlas membership they have turned their backs on but still want their money. 170 Polar to 700 Atlas crewmembers.

Wouldn't that be contrary to the current Polar wants and desires of not merging and give credence to an arbiter to the fact that there is a merger happening? I think ALPA is hurting for money now and any money coming in would dictate financial decisions versus the politically purchased votes from certain councils for the current ALPA president. ALPA is really bleeding out financially now. It was in the red a few months after Prater took over. It has only gotten worse by magnitudes since then.

On something more thread oriented. Heard that there might be some 737's coming on at DHL flown by Astar and then the ABX DC-9's will be pickled. Anyone heard this one?

So you are saying that if ALPA declares single carrier status, which they are likely to do, then the arbitrator will have no choice but to see this as a "complete operational merger."

Interesting.

How Dare You!
 

I earned my battlestar and I wear it with pride. I put it all on the line for you. However, I'm starting to ask myself, " what for? " I'm not asking for anything in return and don't expect to see any of those " beers for life ". What I never expected is this foul tasting, misdirected, vitriol for my troubles.

Gritty
Better reread the relevant law on single carrier status. ALPA can't "declare" single carrier status for anyone. They can "apply" to the NMB for single carrier status as the representaive of a particular labor group and go through the hearing process to prove their case. The other labor group involved can agree or disagree. A reading of the recent TWA/American single carrier proceedings before the NMB pretty well sums up the whole process.

Whale
I think you misunderstood the intent of my post. First, I still work for Polar, albeit in furlough status but that is not the point. OK, I am furloughed and I doubt very seriously if the job will ever come back. However, I am very comfortable with my MEC. When things got rough, he didn't resign "out of the blue", he hung in there. So things haven't turned out as well as some had hoped; so what. I have noting but praise for my council, not only for what they have done, but for what they are trying to do.
That was the intent. Now, what are you going to do? You have to, first find a replacement, get him or her up to speed, defend your grievances, fight for the merger you so desperately want, and fight with management at every turn. That is a mighty tough road to plow my friend. While you still have two probably capable council members, you have to admit, it is the Captain's position that drives the ship, and right now it sounds like you are rudderless, I hope not.
As for finances, I have no idea why national did what you say they did, but it makes no difference now, it is done. Resigning with no warning, to me, is not the way to go. I hope Bourne reconsiders.

My bad. I should have said petition for single carrier status from the National Mediation Board. Either side can do it. I don't really want to get into the nuts-n-bolts of it. That would take a couple of lifetimes.

It has happened recently with US Air during their push to leave ALPA. Which did just recently concluded with ALPA being decertified.

Here is the NMB ruling on the single carrier (USA and AWA) status. It concluded that it was a single carrier in it's findings.

Here in PDF


Just curious, how long of a period do Polar crews have for the right of recall? I know they have gotten new hires in the last year. Did everyone refuse recall?

Gritty
USAIRWAYS and AWA meet the criteria for a single carrier.
Atlas and Polar are a very different situation.
AAWW presents Atlas and Polar to the public as different airlines. They have separate operating certificates with the stated intention of keeping both. Both have separate flight operations management teams. These major items plus a few minor ones like uniforms make this situation very unlikely to result in a finding for single carrier status.

Same HQ,
Same management
Same Payroll department
Same scheduling department
Same dispatch center
Same travel department
Same Training Center
Same Publications and manuals
Same Safety Department
Same Maintenance Department and mechanics
Same ground personnel where we have them (same contractors where we don't)
Same Web-site
Same Ops-specs (verbiage - exact copies)
Same Legal Department
Same HR Department
Polar CP interviews Atlas candidates and vice versa
FAA approved Multiple Operating Certificate Training Program

and the real test - Polar cannot exist ie. does not have the infrastructure to exist outside of AAWH.

Management has already merged the company and the pilots. They are just waiting to get the merged seniority list done. Waiting for Bobbrobbin - as are the rest of us who just want to get ON with this thing so we can get to a contract.

I dunno sounds like one company to me.

Whale,

Under which certificate would the pilot group operate?? Extremely simple question. Either the Atlas certificate or the Polar certificate. If you dont know. Just say " I DONT KNOW". It has to be one or the other.

I might be Sorry
 

As I said earlier, I have no dog in this fight, but I was there in Anchorage when I overheard the Atlas crewmembers tell the Polar guys they did'nt care about the strike they were making "BIG BUCKS" blank you! I saw the Delta, Northwest and UPS pilots try to convince the Atlas crews not to break the picket line. I also saw the Atlas crewmembers snuck out from the basement of the Marriott almost driving over the picketters. I have heard about several Atlas crewmembers that did go above and beyond, and did on one occasion actually see a Atlas Pilot turn his truck around when he saw the picket line. To those folks I apoligize. The rest get what they deserve! Bourne

Sounds like you're telegraphing Dave and Johns big power play on behalf of Cato, Tom. Been in the works for a year.

Wonder if the Atlas membership are going to pay the tab just so Dave can have the big job he wants at the Teamsters, and Caputo/Alves can keep on keepin on...

WD101
The answer is BOTH. Just like CAL and CAL Micro. It is a thing called Multiple Operating Certificates and is common in 135 world and as you can see from the CAL/Micro operation, also available to the 121 world. Each certificate has to have their own Pt. 119 required DO, CP, and DM but the rest of the operation is interchangeable and pilots can fly routes and airplanes on either certificate. It is not that hard to understand and has been explained to you and others MANY times.

The Polar scope language says "complete operational merger" it makes no mention of "merged under one certificate," or "operating under one certificate" - so it remains to be seen what the arbitrator will say - I don't think you have a leg to stand on but we will see in July.

Billybob - so you do have a dog in the fight. I too was in ANC and I saw those same UPS/FedEx Evergreen SAT NWA cargo et. al. cross the fake polar picket line. Most Atlas crews took steps to ensure that there was no Polar cargo on the airplane. I can guarantee that NWA cargo pilots, UPS pilots, FedEx pilots and all the others cared less and didn't bother (not that they could anyways) to check waybills or physically check cargo to ensure that it was not Polar cargo. One of the "blacked out buses" that came out from the basement and was chased down by Daryl W's wife actually had an Evergreen crew in it. I have heard there are pictures, video, and a van drivers statement to back that up.

So you were blindsided by the emotion of the deal. I can respect that. However, if you had put up a REAL picket line and manned it 24 hours a day like REAL trade unionists then you might have gotten less vitriol from the Atlas pilots. Picketing only when and Atlas aircraft is on the ground specifically targeted the Atlas pilots when they were the only ones supporting you! Of course they are gonna be mad - wouldn't you be? Time for you all to step up and be men. Take ownership of your very poor strategy during your strike. EVERYONE else on the planet carried your cargo. Atlas pilots didn't, or at least tried hard not to.

I can tell you as someone that works at Evergreen we had crews checking for Polar AWB #'s on our flights out of HKG and PVG. I can also tell you we had some delayed flights because they found some pallets with Polar AWB #'s
and the crews would not move the planes till the pallets were removed. We also had a pilot working for EIA that was married to a Polar pilot that made sure that all the crews knew to look for the Polar AWB #'s. They would look at the cargo docs or they could check the AWB stickers on the pallets. I am not saying that every crew did this but I know a good number of them did.

Also Evergreen was staying at the Sheraton back then and I think that crew that was chased down in the crew bus was coming from the Airport to the hotel.

I know our guys did what we could to make sure there was no Polar cargo on our flights.

Sid,
And I am not accusing you. All I was really saying is that you crossed a Polar picket line (I know - if there was not an Atlas Airplane on the ground it was probably only a truck parked kitty corner from the FAA building with a sign on it) to fly YOUR airplanes - you searched for Polar waybills as did most Atlas crews. But they are accusing us of crossing their picket line to fly OUR airplanes when many many other crews did the same thing; crossed a Polar picket line to fly their own airplanes. We also looked for Polar waybills. For most other crews it was not even on their radar. And knowing how the FedEx and UPS operations work, it would be impossible to do. The Polar guys were so busy trying to plan their strategy to target Atlas pilots that they "forgot" to tell us that there were TWO numbers that designated Polar. Or perhaps they didn't know.

In any case MOST Atlas pilots did the same checked the waybills they could and inspected the cargo they could see. Remember however that it is also really hard to check hundreds of way bills and inspect ALL cargo (and all sides of every pallet) on a 747 freighter in the one hour turn we had in ANC. Heck the Loadmasters in ICN could have buried the waybills and put the cargo in the lower cargo deck and we would NEVER see it in a one hour turn in ANC.

I am glad to know that I was wrong and that Daryl's wife was chasing the van coming from the airport. Kind of hard to tell in the video.

Atlas guys did what we could also - in fact did more than we should have for a group that has demonstrated how much they hate us.

I was curious how long it would take to get to this again.

It is no secret that Polar has President Prater's ear and smoking his pole. Both hating Atlas and ACMI in general. That has been known since President Prater's election selling his influence for votes. When Prater appointed an independent panel to hear an alternative dispute resolution over this issue (as independent as that can be Hah!) they found that all the accusations Polar made were false resulting in an apology from Prater himself.

Link to that at ALPA decision along with some audio:

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172

I know it sounds so much better to BS around the breakfast table in PVG over what so-and-so had heard from a distant third cousin with a sloped forehead during the strike or voicing it to some other carriers crews at the bar, and bulletin boards like pprune. In the end, ALPA National said Polar was wrong despite it having all the political pull in the politics of ALPA. Take it or leave it. I won't even go into what Polar did at the Atlas countdown to strike. National came up with it while Polar is in it's good graces with President Prater, so live with it.

Can we get back to the more germane parts of this thread?

If anyone thinks that DHL is the panacea for all had better read the ASTAR Airlines race to the bottom's thread. The enemy is management styles not other councils.
On a side questions; has anyone heard the results of the section 8 hearing against the Polar MEC? The results were to be out yesterday.

Actually the results were out Friday. The three puppets running the hearing said that an MEC could sell used cars on the VARS if they wished. No duty to be honest. No duty to be fair. No duty of fair representation. An MEC can say anything they want. Guess this will really open things up for Bobbrobin.

WHALEFR8
I'm getting a bit confused. When you win, as in the ADR hearing, it's in spite of the fact you have no friends or support from ALPA.
When you lose, as in the Section 8 hearing, it's because you have no friends or support at ALPA.

It is fun to parrot Bobb on this page. But to have meaningful discussion you need to pay attention to the actual event, not just say what Bobbrobin want you to say.

The ADR came as a result of a lawsuit filed by 128 Atlas pilots against Polar which of course means against ALPA, as ALPA indemnifies the actions of their MECs. The 128 Pilots (well most of them anyways), agreed to accept the ADR - which means Alternate Dispute Resolution - in an attempt to bring resolution to the situation quicker, and with less pain to both groups. In the ultimate no-good-deed-goes-unpunished, they were finally, weeks after the actual award, written a letter by Prater which met the letter of the ADR but certainly NOT the spirit and definitely didn't meet their expectations of a resolution. These 128 pilots, unlike the Polar guys who have ALL their outside counsel bills paid by ALPA, had to pay for their own attorney.

So now how is it that you feel they got some support from ALPA during the ADR? They had to sue ALPA just to get what they got; and it wasn't much.

As an interesting example of what I am talking about, here is the latest letter from Prater and ALPA concerning Capt Beebe's departure. Look at the brand spankey new "letterhead" on the left. See Atlas listed in there anywhere?

Still confused?

It sounds more and more like your council was, and is, a mess. Wouldn't a little introspection be better than blaming others? If h

It sounds more and more like your council was, and is, a mess. Wouldn't a little introspection be better than blaming others? As Pogo once said "We have met the enemy and it is us". Most of the time this is so true.

I just finished reading the atlasforteamsters web site. Especially the letter to Polar crew members. You are kidding aren't you? After so much Polar crew and especially the MEC bashing, not to mention the section 8 charges that were thrown out, that Polar would even consider joining forces with you. I am furloughed at Polar, but I support the MEC. I agree with the previous post. You had better look at yourselves first. Then check out the wonderful job the Teamsters did with the Champion and ABX crews. As much as I detest ALPA, I really think you are making a very big mistake. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, how about assessing what you are doing wrong, then fix it.

So, what did Teamsters do with Champion and ABX?

Teamsters:
Good:
Wrote a good scope
Kept us from being fisted by mainline pilots represented by ALPA
QX and World contracts

Bad:
Business agent died and it only took 7 years to replace the individual with the person that was his secretary

Never, EVER had a professional negotiator

Most dues went to the International. We had an assessment to cover flight pay loss. The percent of dues ended up closer than they advertise.

They also lost a majority of grievances. Especially the ones that REALLY mattered.

Hap-hazard, at best, communication

No support other than what we could cajole from them.

F'ers never even gave me a lanyard.

9 years with them

When UPS bought Champion the union was told there wouldn't be any loss of jobs. The Teamsters bought off on it. Guess what, I sat in Nicaragua listening to a Champion crew lamenting on how the union would not fight for them when the aquisition was complete. Both handed me resumes. Although we didn't have 757's they both got hired.