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-   -   Cargolux details requested! (https://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs/205896-cargolux-details-requested.html)

Jungleland 24th Jul 2006 13:32

80% of CV pilots commute?!
One good thing about the new CWA... it seems to be somewhat better for those who commute. At least something. Maybe.

CR2 25th Jul 2006 01:57

Did the delegation resign en masse yesterday? Heard it was on the cards after having been stabbed in the back.

ray cosmic 25th Jul 2006 02:32

Aedius; The future for CV looks better for CV than for LG;its as simple as that.
It might be tough, but at least you'll have a future, which on the q400 is still the question.

Aedius 25th Jul 2006 15:48

You're certainly right about the uncertain future with the Q400s and like I said, I don't mind doing 15-16 days rotations every month for a few years but I highly doubt that anyone will be pleased with his social life if this continues for the next 20-30 years. Flying 747s to exotic destinations is nice but will certainly not help to forget the time you won't spend with your family & friends, especially not after 5-10 years.

I would try to join CV immediately if I only knew that that there might be a chance that things get better someday because at least in LG I know that the roster cannot become much worse because we're already pretty close to the limits.

Of course everyone has different priorities in his life and I'm looking for a company in which I can stay till the pension (if only possible) and that's why I don't think that CV is the best choice if things remain as they are. I could be wrong but I don't believe that many will stand the test of time at CV if things don't improve.

acmi48 25th Jul 2006 19:44

for my info will there be any firework display on the 31st as the invisible ink runs of the lcgb signed copy of the cwa ,and will the 2 little smart cars be ferrying around pickets:)

IOLAR60 28th Jul 2006 11:32

Thank you for your responses LUXFREIGHT and AEDIUS.

luxfreight 31st Jul 2006 09:29

To IOLAR60, it's a pleasure mate,and if I where you I'd try join as soon as possible, mainly to get on the seniority list. FDP's will get better and so will the CWA.

To bigiron, thank you for editing the swearing out of your attack on me. Maybe I deserved it, maybe I didn't- but we are democracy and I think I'm entitled to my own opinion. I was put off trying to join the board when I heard about colleages getting phone calls telling them to withdraw their canditure (for the board),after that I felt that my opinions would not gell with the kleck and your above reasoning does not apply.So please don't generalise.I have had my ramblings on this thread and had a go at CST which I deeply regret now.I truely suspect that you are a very nice person but fighting the lux system is robbing you of your sense of humour. All I can wish you now is Good Luck!!!


Buster Hyman 31st Jul 2006 22:20

Resignations? :eek: Geez, you guys wanna ask the Aussie pilots at CV about 89!

CR2 1st Aug 2006 06:13

No 89. Repeat no 89! :=

Buster Hyman 1st Aug 2006 08:32

Sorry Ratty...:O

cargoflyer 1st Aug 2006 09:32

Originally Posted by CR2
No 89. Repeat no 89! :=

no... why not.... :E

CR2 1st Aug 2006 11:36

'Coz I said so :}

Seriously, it gives nothing but grief. Try your luck on the Dunnunda forum if you wish, though Buster will tell you it'll last a max of 5 mins.

cargoflyer 1st Aug 2006 12:13

Originally Posted by CR2
'Coz I said so :}
Seriously, it gives nothing but grief. Try your luck on the Dunnunda forum if you wish, though Buster will tell you it'll last a max of 5 mins.

ok ok... :ok:

Buster Hyman 1st Aug 2006 13:03

5 mins if yer lucky! Serious grief ensues and bitter arguments continue...


...where were we?

PrettyBoy 2nd Aug 2006 10:21

Well, it appears that the saga continues. The union representing the pilots (the same union that signed the CWA against our will but promised to cancel their signature should a majority of the pilots vote NO) has yet again lied and now refuses to withdraw their signature despite the fact that a vast majority of pilots did vote NO. The Management of course is behind all this and surely must have put a lot of pressure on the unions for them to betray their members.

So, what is a promise worth? When what you say and what you do is two different things, all trust is broken. This is the precise reason the pilots has fought so hard the last 3-4 years to put in clauses in the future CWA that would protect the pilots against a rough company in a rough country.

For those of you considering joining this company be aware that this is how it works in our neck of the woods.

Aedius 2nd Aug 2006 11:25

Thanks for the info, it's much appreciated!

CR2 2nd Aug 2006 11:36

Well, it won't be long now before we start negotiating the next CWA.

HighLoader 2nd Aug 2006 11:48

The union is representing ALL CV employees under the CWA, not only the pilots.

CR2 2nd Aug 2006 12:12

Quite right Highloader. I for one (as ground staff) was not impressed with our bit of the CWA. Unfortunately most of my "bretheren" did not agree; some of them had their own agenda (ie trying to get the Delegation ruled invalid so they could get themselves on unelected - thats another story though). I'm disgusted with the entire affair & feel sorry for those people who put in an enormous amount of effort, only to be stabbed in the back by the people they were looking out for.

HighLoader 2nd Aug 2006 12:59

I totally agree. I am also on the ground and our part is very unimpressive indeed. :hmm:

I also feel sorry for those delegates that really tried hard to get something done and I can understand their disappointment.

But I had not heard about attempts to get the delegation ruled invalid though :ooh:. The way the delegation was voted was not pretty, but it was legal. I knew about the "voting instructions" the pilots had and voted for ground staff only. It didn't help much, did it. But as you mentioned, it won't be long now before the next one :} and if I hear about pilots' "voting instructions" again, I will make sure everyone on the ground is aware of it. I am not saying that there should be no pilot on the delegation, but I don't want a delegation consisting of only pilots. I don't feel represented.

Anyway. I'm glad i's over now (it is, isn't it?)

PrettyBoy 2nd Aug 2006 14:55


If the ground staff was soo unhappy with their CWA, how come you voted yes? It appears that the pilot-only delegation was able to get an agreement that the ground staff was happy with but not an agreement the pilots was happy with. Who won in the end??? This is not the issue. Just look back to 97-98 when ground staff ignored the pilots. The opposite did not happen now.

Don't expect too much with the next delegation (I'm sure you will get a majority next time!) because the company can still completely ignore you and instruct the unions to vote their way. It is such a pity we can't work together, and I just don't just mean pilot/ground staff, but really employees and employers! This short sighted attitude has already led to previously motivated staff now being fed-up and running scared. Too bad. This used to be a good company to work for where we did not have to clean our dirty laundry in public to avoid being fired.....

HighLoader 2nd Aug 2006 15:57

You say ground staff are happy with it, pilots are not? Well maybe one group is just easier to please than the other.

And did I say I was unhappy with the CWA? :bored:

Let's say I'm OK with it. Nothing much changed for us anyway. A slight salary increase and more I don't see... Thanks for not ignoring us. :ok:

If two parties cannot work together, it is rarely the fault of just one side.

And by the way, I am this evil and rough company you are talking about and so are you.

Buster Hyman 2nd Aug 2006 22:39

I'll just throw my 2c in from a distance.

It is almost a given that pilots & groundstaff are diametrically opposed when it comes to conditions and agreements. Could it be that groundstaff think the pilot group is overpaid & underworked? Could the pilots think that groundstaff are overpaid & underworked? Who knows for sure? The thing is, that the company (and that's all airlines managements) know this and use it to their advantage.

As Ratty has asked, I wont go into specifics, but I was at the coal face when this very issue raised its head in Dunnunda & the Pilots went it alone. The combined weight of the airline, government & the apathy of the other employees meant that the Pilots were crushed & the face of aviation in Australia changed forever.

Now, I obviously don't know all the specifics of what you lot are up against, but as a former employee of CV and having thoroughly enjoyed my time there, I would hate to see the employees at loggerheads against each other, whilst the company sits back & watches. The only way forward is together and you need to sort out your differences before that happens.

Pray it's not too late.

Good luck!:ok:

ray cosmic 3rd Aug 2006 07:20

Now that something is signed, continue with the true Luxembourgisch model: secret meetings behind closed doors.
As long as there is no reverse in T&C, you can be happy already in todays world.
Next door -at the other airline- everyone who is a bit qualified is using his or her elbows to jump ship. Not pretty at all..

cargoflyer 3rd Aug 2006 07:35

i wish this so-called delegation - may there be now pilots or non-pilots - would have spent so much of there time and energy to look after 100+ people`s interest just under 2 years ago... :yuk:

May your cotton socks be blessed and have fun dealing with the "financial heroe`s" (caused thats what is driving this company nowadays.. make a quick buck, and forget about the rest)... - enjoy :E :ok:

don`t think the folks - at the other airline down the road - are alone checking their qualifications... there are a fair number of "former CV" employees trying to avoid staying too long on a sinking "49/51pct show-boat"... :rolleyes:

@ all - be happy you have a CWA... other people are not so lucky :ugh:


PrettyBoy 3rd Aug 2006 08:24

My point is, the way this issue has been dealt with is not correct. Some one mentioned that we should be happy just having a CWA but when we haven't signed and agreed to it then there is not really an AGREEMENT anymore.

I'm glad other groups are reasonably happy with what they got but please don't get into the habit of ignoring your colleagues who still have great concerns. I suspect that should the ground staff have the majority now they would have done what they did last time... ignore the minority. But again, this is not the issue this time. What is happening now can happen to you two years from now.

Aedius 8th Aug 2006 13:07

8 LG Pilots just got greenlighted to start at CV in January 2007.

Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.

ray cosmic 8th Aug 2006 16:06

Originally Posted by Aedius
8 LG Pilots just got greenlighted to start at CV in January 2007.

Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.

Really? Do you know for sure? As far as I know there were 6 who were delayed and nothing final was known yet..

Aedius 8th Aug 2006 20:14

yes, 2 will be allowed to leave LG in September, something which you certainly knew for a few weeks, and the other 6 just got their confirmation from the management for next January the other day.

ray cosmic 8th Aug 2006 21:45

Well, that's great news then!
One of them was not aware of this fact this afternoon.

It must be said full credit in this goes to the current LG CEO, the new LG DO and the ones involved in CV. The amount of flexibility displayed by CV, in combination with the sympathy received from forementioned LG people is unique.:ok: (with a littlebit of help from LCGB..)
Hope for you things remained this way by the time you made up your mind, Aedius!;)

Aedius 9th Aug 2006 10:53

I can't really agree with your opinion eventhough I know that it is shared with several people from our management.

I don't think that most of the pilots leaving LG now thought of LG being a flight training school for CV but rather decided to leave LG because they saw no future within LG and didn't like the idea of becoming a Q400 captain in 15 -20 years when they have the possibility to fly 747-800s around the world and earn more money within a more "future-proof" company.

At least that's the way I see, and most probably the reason why I will try to switch over to CV. In fact, only 6-8 months ago, I never thought of leaving LG but that changed now because of the doubtful future of LG and not because I believe that my "CV flighttraining" is now complete. No offense though.

ray cosmic 9th Aug 2006 23:22

Originally Posted by From Dusk Till Dawn

Could you please explain what you mean by "earning more"?
As far as I can compare both Payscales, the monthly basic salary is at least 400-500 brut higher in LG than in CLX!
Any update is highly appreciated.

You gave the answer yourself by using the word "brut".
The first year you'll lose, but after that you'll be back at your old level; net that is, not brut.

Aedius 12th Aug 2006 12:07

It's rather an "end-result" than a "brutto salary" thing.

LG employees are going to have a salary freeze for the next 3 years, allowances are higher at CV than at LG and CV employees got for the last few years a real nice profit-share bonus where at LG the bonus has been mediocre to almost non-existing.

Another point which will determine your real, net salary in the long run is the perspective of becoming a captain. With the present situation my upgrade to captain will take at least twice as long as it would be the case if I join CV right now.

Of course you'll also have to consider the future of LG. What will have happened to LG in 10 years? "Swissair to Swiss" phenomenon anyone?

Boxshifter 12th Aug 2006 15:59

With the changed profit sharing formula in the new CWA I think you wont see the sums payed during the last couple of years.

ray cosmic 13th Aug 2006 18:48

True, LG salaries won't be frozen.
Most LG pilots, if not all have already the 3500 hours, certainly after reaching the 600 hrs 747.
Meaning the brut basic salary after these 600 hours is €4800, instead of the plm. €5300 an LG FO makes. After that the rises are comparable; around €150 p.m. rise p.a.
That's indeed a difference, but the allowances etc. should compensate for that. And don't forget, these €500 are taxed as well, making the difference even smaller.
Now if you look at the extended career, if salaries at LG remain the same over the years, you'll reach your max FO salary in scale number 8, being €6221,87 with the 737 and current index.
You'll be stuck there, until your upgrade.
With CV you'll continue (as far as I understand) up till FO scale (god forbid it will take that long to upgrade) 31, being €9231,19 at today's index.
So, not a dramatic difference, but that in combination with all the other factors involved makes CV for most of LG the company of choice.

Jungleland 14th Aug 2006 07:00

Hear the CV-pilot makes about 1500/month in average as per diem. Up to 1st of August it was in USD, but know in EUR. (4/hour away from LUX for FO and 4,50/hour for CMD. Working about 15 days/month).

What per diem is it in LG? Per hour or sector or day?


Aedius 14th Aug 2006 09:46

At LG you get paid for working days, depending on the number of duty hours you had each day.

Less than 6 hours: 16,66€
More than 6 but less than 12: 25.00€
More than 12: 50.00€

My average for a busy month is around 430€

trancada 15th Aug 2006 22:31

But how long is expected to up-grade as Comander in Cargolux?
Is the company hiring now ?
If one of you, well...I believe flew Airbus Fly By Wire before being type rated on 747-400 how was your adaptation ?

TheRednosedReindeer 16th Aug 2006 09:12

@ all who consider joining CV:
1. Upgrade Perspectives:
We have a very unbalanced age structure. A huge bunch of pilots are around 30-40 years old. Meaning that an upgrade based solely on others retiring, would take very, very long. In short: Your upgrade totally depends on ongoing expansion. It's a snowball game....
When I joined, there were just a few guys being upgraded after only 2 years of service (having considerable previous experience), due to rapid expansion.
Right now, upgrades take place after 7 years. When it's my turn, I'll have close to 10 years. Any future perspectives depend on the devellopment of upgrades/year. At present: aprox. 20, so 200 people in front of you means 10 years. But don't count on it! We've had virtually no upgrades i.e. in 2003 - don't think this can't happen again...

2. Working conditions:
Yes, the newly signed CWA contains some slight enhancements. The main thing being, that the 3 "floating" OFF-days must now be granted in a block of 3. The main problem is though, that this new CWA has only a limited continuation after its expiry in 2008, namely 9 months. If no new agreement is found by then, we'll be down to legal limits!! That means, the company can then, basicly push through ANY claims because time plays for them. That's why I'm quite pessimistic about future working conditions - they will IMHO be a mere matter of market laws.

3. Rostering practice:
Anything is possible - just don't expect anything! There may be trips that you like, but don't complain if you get a few s**ty rosters in a row....
The worst thing are 24h layovers, getting in at night, to leave again the same time next night! If you get that constantly, you'll wish you'd rather fly island-hopping on a piston-plane....

In Cargolux, seniority means everything. There are unfortunately a lot of guys at the top of the list who couldn't care less whether you can get your life organized at all or not. Don't expect to get a single vacation request with low seniority - it will be allocated somewhere in February and November. There has been an attempt to fix this, but failed, because too many old guys have an outdated attitude of "everybody has to go through the same hardship like I had to".
Same with the bidding for trips + OFF-days: With only few people behind you, there's no point in even bidding for anything at all - the system will not even make it down to you. Also, the AIMS bidding system that CV uses is Web-technology of the 80s (=takes a lot of time to work your way thorugh).
Once you get your lucky upgrade after, say 10 years, the whole thing starts over again.

5. Salary and Per Diem:
The statements in this thread on salary are quite correct.
Just PLEASE don't calculate the Per Diem as part of the salary, especially if you're not used to long-haul-ops. You'll yet have to find out for yourself, howmuch of the 96 EUR per day you'll need on the road. You're not going to make many friends by only dining at McDonalds. Apart from eating, you may need some money for certain activities, that make life on layovers bearable in the long run. Some play golf, some tennis, sightseeing, etc. etc. All this doesn't make it a great life, it just keeps you from getting depressive, which you will if you spend your time only in your room. Of course, the shorter the layovers get, the less chance you'll have to spend money...

6. Travel on company A/C
There could be some nice opportunities of taking your wife/girlfriend along on a trip. But always exciting! All of a sudden some horse grooms pop up (or some relative of the CEO), and she gets bumped off at Melbourne (lots of stories of that kind).
Travel with kids: very, very limited...

7. Culture in CV and LUX
Whowever thought that there was still some cooperation between management and pilots, shoul know better by now. It seems that at least some key persons in management hate pilots. There seems to be a great lack of mutual understanding. Not a good precontition for your working atmosphere.
The LUX system looks great at first, with nice laws about money (salary index, low tax however progression is strong here too), vacation (comes on top of any OFF-days), state benefits for kids....
The catch is, that LUX is not a real democracy in terms of separation of powers. The Luxies all know each other, and corruption is a big issue. So there's no real enforcement of law available for you, at least don't count on it...

8. Company strategy for the future
I'm not sure if there is any. We had a very capable CEO until 2001, Heiner Wilkens, who really put the company on the track we're on. He initiated the expansion, and I believe the current management has finally got it that this has to continue. All management is currently doing, is keeping track. If any turbulences ever arise, I doubt very much that they will be capable of steering us through.

Bottom line: Decide for yourself if this offers indeed a career perspective for you. Give it a 2nd thought!

Aedius 16th Aug 2006 12:36

wow, thanks a lot.

This information is more useful and interesting than I could have ever asked for.

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