Electra at CGN
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deboost
we lost the elevator in an aag electra going into brussels about 10 years ago. the failure was of the hydraulic ram that controlled the elevator , the failure occured at about 1500 feet on the glideslope so we were fully set up and trimmed , the fo asked me if i wanted to deboost the elevator <we had a flight eng on board too> but i chose to fly the thing down and flare using the trim wheel. it was a none event.one thing atlantic did teach you was how to fly a plane.wed all come off dc3,s were electra captains, and were still only in our mid twenties.ah those wrer the days.........
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Hi all,
What a shambles of a discussion!
I've logged around 6,000 hours in P3B & P3C airplanes, not including much simulator time.
Firstly, I wouldn't want to be aboard any L188 that tried to carry out a windmill start on the runway without an PFE!
Having done that maneuver many, many times in training rotations, the FE plays a very important part. He, in fact does all the propellor controls manipulation and calls the progress of the engine acceleration.
The Capt. attempts to keep the whole thing on the runway with the other three power levers, to get to the pre-determined Vr and back to a stand still.
The FO is busy monitoring the airplane acceleration, calling the speeds etc, and assisting with the rudder.
If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years ago now, the FE, after holding the PCO up to about 90 knots, then pulls out on the feather button, calls light-off and engine acceleration to about 40%, (fuel & Ign is already on), at which time the Capt. then starts to decelerate, if he hasn't already done so!
And the whole show stops at the other end with all four engines running.
And yes, somebody asked, you can 'buddy' start in the prop-wash of another turboprop I'm told, but I've never seen it done!
Manipulating the necessary controls during a runway windmill start requires all three crew. I for one would not fly in a two-crew L188 or P3.
If any one of you have tried to pull any one of those boost out handles from the Captns seat, which would have to be fully slid back. You will know that it is very difficult, especially if ANY pressure is being input into the relevent control!
I'm not even going to mention the inflight restart procedure with respect to no FE - nope, I'm not going there - in more ways than one!!
Cheers, I think!
What a shambles of a discussion!
I've logged around 6,000 hours in P3B & P3C airplanes, not including much simulator time.
Firstly, I wouldn't want to be aboard any L188 that tried to carry out a windmill start on the runway without an PFE!
Having done that maneuver many, many times in training rotations, the FE plays a very important part. He, in fact does all the propellor controls manipulation and calls the progress of the engine acceleration.
The Capt. attempts to keep the whole thing on the runway with the other three power levers, to get to the pre-determined Vr and back to a stand still.
The FO is busy monitoring the airplane acceleration, calling the speeds etc, and assisting with the rudder.
If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years ago now, the FE, after holding the PCO up to about 90 knots, then pulls out on the feather button, calls light-off and engine acceleration to about 40%, (fuel & Ign is already on), at which time the Capt. then starts to decelerate, if he hasn't already done so!
And the whole show stops at the other end with all four engines running.
And yes, somebody asked, you can 'buddy' start in the prop-wash of another turboprop I'm told, but I've never seen it done!
Manipulating the necessary controls during a runway windmill start requires all three crew. I for one would not fly in a two-crew L188 or P3.
If any one of you have tried to pull any one of those boost out handles from the Captns seat, which would have to be fully slid back. You will know that it is very difficult, especially if ANY pressure is being input into the relevent control!
I'm not even going to mention the inflight restart procedure with respect to no FE - nope, I'm not going there - in more ways than one!!
Cheers, I think!
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Freightdogg
That was a bizarre reminiscence with which to resurrect this thread.
Which way did you move the trim wheel ? ( I think I know the answer because you're obviously still here), how did you analyse what you were going to do or had you rehearsed it previously ?
What was the rest of the crew's reactions when you briefed them about what you were going to do ? I presume this was all so obvious that a trip to a hold was inappropriate. Anyway I'd just like to know. Stir away.
Flight Detent
You did check the dates at the start of the thread didn't you ? I'm only replying 'cos I didn't see it first time round and can guess the identity of three or four of the contributors. Again I'm guessing but most of them would hardly remember what the fuss was about. As Jones the Steam, I think, commented - the L188 was a two crew aeroplane looking for an excuse for the third man. Whether or not this was a good idea for each particular type is an endless debate. Equally complex or even more complex types are two crew and less complex types are three crew. It was all part of continuous change - DC-4, DC-6, L1049, L188, Comet, VC9, Trident, Mercure etc, etc - evolution. Sooner or later no matter where the cbs were put, the F/E was on the way out. That is except for the bigger aircraft where they were needed for another generation. Personally I think that there maybe a good case for a third operator on the A380 but as I've never flown large, glass aircraft I'm probably wrong.
I can only say that from my experience of three crew aeroplanes that F/Es were never superfluous and prided themselves on making crap cups of coffee. I have been indebted to the sideways facing font of knowledge many times. Swipes at them being only fit for proping up bars, must have come from some strangely ingrained prejudice, but the commercial thrust to do away with waste is completely understandable. Nobody ever made an F/E fly in a company which didn't need them. Those F/Es who want to carp about young skippers invariably can't fly themselves - maybe they can do the driving but that isn't the same -- and I mean no disrespect at all to their situational awareness. Many F/Es are really good pilots when they've had their brains removed - I've had the pleasure of flying with some of them too, but most aren't interested in piloting, they just want to do a good job of what they're paid to do.
I don't think it was a shambles of an argument. There were vested interests and misunderstandings - deliberate or otherwise just like the rest of the BB. Overall, for those with first hand experience I think the two crew operation made complete and safe sense. So far it's justified. How long do you want to be a vulture ?
BS
That was a bizarre reminiscence with which to resurrect this thread.
Which way did you move the trim wheel ? ( I think I know the answer because you're obviously still here), how did you analyse what you were going to do or had you rehearsed it previously ?
What was the rest of the crew's reactions when you briefed them about what you were going to do ? I presume this was all so obvious that a trip to a hold was inappropriate. Anyway I'd just like to know. Stir away.
Flight Detent
You did check the dates at the start of the thread didn't you ? I'm only replying 'cos I didn't see it first time round and can guess the identity of three or four of the contributors. Again I'm guessing but most of them would hardly remember what the fuss was about. As Jones the Steam, I think, commented - the L188 was a two crew aeroplane looking for an excuse for the third man. Whether or not this was a good idea for each particular type is an endless debate. Equally complex or even more complex types are two crew and less complex types are three crew. It was all part of continuous change - DC-4, DC-6, L1049, L188, Comet, VC9, Trident, Mercure etc, etc - evolution. Sooner or later no matter where the cbs were put, the F/E was on the way out. That is except for the bigger aircraft where they were needed for another generation. Personally I think that there maybe a good case for a third operator on the A380 but as I've never flown large, glass aircraft I'm probably wrong.
I can only say that from my experience of three crew aeroplanes that F/Es were never superfluous and prided themselves on making crap cups of coffee. I have been indebted to the sideways facing font of knowledge many times. Swipes at them being only fit for proping up bars, must have come from some strangely ingrained prejudice, but the commercial thrust to do away with waste is completely understandable. Nobody ever made an F/E fly in a company which didn't need them. Those F/Es who want to carp about young skippers invariably can't fly themselves - maybe they can do the driving but that isn't the same -- and I mean no disrespect at all to their situational awareness. Many F/Es are really good pilots when they've had their brains removed - I've had the pleasure of flying with some of them too, but most aren't interested in piloting, they just want to do a good job of what they're paid to do.
I don't think it was a shambles of an argument. There were vested interests and misunderstandings - deliberate or otherwise just like the rest of the BB. Overall, for those with first hand experience I think the two crew operation made complete and safe sense. So far it's justified. How long do you want to be a vulture ?
BS
Last edited by Bert Stiles; 6th Aug 2005 at 23:23.
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we had very little time to think about it really, and also,wed positioned over with min fuel when the thing "locked up". the first thing i did was ask the fo if she could check her controls.of course she couldnt.we then checked the elevator trim and could get almost normal pitch control from that.the landing and flare were a non event. to answer the question as the power came off, i wound about one handfull of elevator trim towards me.i think!!!
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Having performed a few windmill starts (even on the critical engine)myself, I can't see what the problem is. This thread is almost identical to one posted about 2 years ago when another electra was spotted at cgn doing exactly the same. When this next happens at cgn (and most likely will) can we expect a re-run of the whole ....." I think the electra 2 crew mod is a bad idea....." argument, which is what this thread boils down to and not the fact that an electra had to do yet another windmill start.
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in the good old days with Hunting, we never did windmill starts, but I often paxed as the ground engineer on 3 eng ferries.
A nice old aircraft kind regards to all those who still fly them....and used to with hunting
A nice old aircraft kind regards to all those who still fly them....and used to with hunting
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When a turbo prop engine is shut down and the prop blade is not fully feathered the resultant angle of attack of the blade causes the engine to be driven. Amount of windmilling increases with aircraft speed.
A bit like a windmill as the wind increases the sheets go faster hence the term windmilling
A bit like a windmill as the wind increases the sheets go faster hence the term windmilling
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Just for curiosity I used to work on Carvairs with two man crews, but how come the DC-4 which they derrived from needed an F/E ?
By the way our loadmaster handpulled a prop once.
By the way our loadmaster handpulled a prop once.
