Howz Cougar Doing??
Engineer:
I have already clearly stated that I know less than nothing about Super 27s. It may well be that you need full chat to get the thing off the ground for all I know.
All I know is that we always derate when it is at all possible (which it is 99% of the time) and it causes a hell of a lot less noise for the attenuators near to the runway to pick up.
Actually, a lot of noise violations are caused by some really p*ss-poor tracking by the crew after take-off and I have witnessed some amazing performances over the last 40-odd years.
PS. Please note that the callsign is JW411 and not JW411a.
I have already clearly stated that I know less than nothing about Super 27s. It may well be that you need full chat to get the thing off the ground for all I know.
All I know is that we always derate when it is at all possible (which it is 99% of the time) and it causes a hell of a lot less noise for the attenuators near to the runway to pick up.
Actually, a lot of noise violations are caused by some really p*ss-poor tracking by the crew after take-off and I have witnessed some amazing performances over the last 40-odd years.
PS. Please note that the callsign is JW411 and not JW411a.
Engineer:
My apologies; I thought you were asking a type-specific question and not a general one. Without getting myself into a nit-picking discussion about the finer points of Performance "A", perhaps I could give you a rather basic explanation of "derate" or "reduced thrust" take-offs?
It is often the case that an aircraft is not being operated to its absolute limit. For example, if the runway is much longer than that actually required or the load means that the aircraft is below its optimum weight for a given runway then a derate take-off is possible and allowed.
There are of course many other considerations such as obstacles and terrain considerations after take-off to be considered. We pilots consult performance tables called RTOGs (Regulated Take Off Graphs) and they will tell us for any given set of conditions exactly how much we can safely derate by.
From the noise point of view this is obviously desirable. A 10% reduction in take-off power would probably result in more than a 10% reduction in noise (but I'm only guessing).
On the debit side, the take-off run will obviously be longer and the aircraft will not climb quite so quickly. However, it is doing all of this whilst making a hell of a lot less noise! When it comes to the positioning of that particular airport's noise attenuators, it might not be quite so easy to make a choice.
For example, is it better to upset the people in the car park of Birchanger Services on the M11 or the entire populace of Bishops Stortford?
The other huge advantage of doing derate take-offs is that they are so much kinder on your engines. We should always be kind to them for you never know when you are really going to need them. Quite clearly, if you derated on every take-off versus going at full power on every take-off, it would not take rocket science to work out which engine is going to last the longest.
In fact, some engine manufacturers give credit for derate take-offs. When I flew DC-10s every single derate was faithfully entered in the tech log (even if it was just 1%) and due credit was given by GE.
I hope this is of use.
My apologies; I thought you were asking a type-specific question and not a general one. Without getting myself into a nit-picking discussion about the finer points of Performance "A", perhaps I could give you a rather basic explanation of "derate" or "reduced thrust" take-offs?
It is often the case that an aircraft is not being operated to its absolute limit. For example, if the runway is much longer than that actually required or the load means that the aircraft is below its optimum weight for a given runway then a derate take-off is possible and allowed.
There are of course many other considerations such as obstacles and terrain considerations after take-off to be considered. We pilots consult performance tables called RTOGs (Regulated Take Off Graphs) and they will tell us for any given set of conditions exactly how much we can safely derate by.
From the noise point of view this is obviously desirable. A 10% reduction in take-off power would probably result in more than a 10% reduction in noise (but I'm only guessing).
On the debit side, the take-off run will obviously be longer and the aircraft will not climb quite so quickly. However, it is doing all of this whilst making a hell of a lot less noise! When it comes to the positioning of that particular airport's noise attenuators, it might not be quite so easy to make a choice.
For example, is it better to upset the people in the car park of Birchanger Services on the M11 or the entire populace of Bishops Stortford?
The other huge advantage of doing derate take-offs is that they are so much kinder on your engines. We should always be kind to them for you never know when you are really going to need them. Quite clearly, if you derated on every take-off versus going at full power on every take-off, it would not take rocket science to work out which engine is going to last the longest.
In fact, some engine manufacturers give credit for derate take-offs. When I flew DC-10s every single derate was faithfully entered in the tech log (even if it was just 1%) and due credit was given by GE.
I hope this is of use.
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I think I must suffer from blackouts as I can not remember ever doing anything than a std dep from LGG , yes we do do the turn at 4.3 miles as per sid. You are correct though we do not do reduced pwr t/o,s it has been found that this is the most effective way of keeping the noise down on our a/c.The a/c does meet full stage 3 but as you should know with a lot of stage 3 a/c it does not mean you can just blast off willy nilly and not ring the bells, you have to carry out a proceedure ,change of flap setting and cutback of pwr ot 1000aal. you must also be good at your sid tracking . So these are the areas where you can get improvement from.
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Cougar Leasing are planning to operate a 50 seat VIP passenger aircraft from April 2003 using a refurbished Super 27 B727/200 aircraft.
The plan is to remove the aircraft from service at the end of October 2002 and to give it a complete overhaul both inside and outside.
During the overhaul the interior will have a transformation by having 50 business class seats fitted each with facilities for the use of personal laptop computers, and individual DVD players will be available with a good selection of DVDs available from the onboard library. The will be a lounge with settees and tables plus a bar area, changing rooms each fitted with hand basins, and luxury toilets. Long-range fuel tanks will be installed
allowing the aircraft to operate non-stop across the Atlantic.
Outside there will be a new livery giving the whole aircraft the look of luxury.
The plan is to remove the aircraft from service at the end of October 2002 and to give it a complete overhaul both inside and outside.
During the overhaul the interior will have a transformation by having 50 business class seats fitted each with facilities for the use of personal laptop computers, and individual DVD players will be available with a good selection of DVDs available from the onboard library. The will be a lounge with settees and tables plus a bar area, changing rooms each fitted with hand basins, and luxury toilets. Long-range fuel tanks will be installed
allowing the aircraft to operate non-stop across the Atlantic.
Outside there will be a new livery giving the whole aircraft the look of luxury.
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New Livery are they mad..... the design of those super 727`s are selling the product for them they are the most eye catching aircraft in Europe at the moment probably the world.
Cat-club what are they going to put on the tail when the 737 arrives.
Cat-club what are they going to put on the tail when the 737 arrives.
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Personally, I think the cat face would look better spread right across the tail and nbr 2 intake and the title "cougar along the forward fuselage but under the window line. As for another type - Mmmmmm who knows ?? 
Oops pardon me
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Puuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Well seems u guys are hanging in there....as for the livery.....well seems fine to me unless you fancy a big meeeowwwwwww down the side. Heard some of you guys might be loaned out to ACL for a spell....any chance you could bring one of them hot ships with you...ours are like de tuned reliant robins.
So can you dispell the TNT contract rumour......I have heard TNT,s own 727,s have finished so they are either trucking the stuff or you guys are on overtime!
As for 737,s well got one too few engines and they are as common as muck....stick with the queen of the skies and dont go down that boring low cost operator route. Its a breath of fresh air to see someone doing it different and long may it continue. I bet you could keep your planes full with eager spotters just wanting to experience the thrill of a 0.88 cruise
and a speed brake like someone,s cut the wings off!
Talk Mr Newnham into doing a few airshow flypasts....it works for Atlantic and reminds the public of what a slick looking aircraft Mr Boeing used to make.
One last queery.....has November India been cut been up yet? Lady Patricia was a fine ship and deserves a better end.....how about turning her into a restraunt at Stansted!!
November Delta is featured in this months Airliners Mag in an Arkia Leasing article resplendent in the Sabre Livery.
Well good luck all you Cat Club members and keep yer chin up!
So can you dispell the TNT contract rumour......I have heard TNT,s own 727,s have finished so they are either trucking the stuff or you guys are on overtime!
As for 737,s well got one too few engines and they are as common as muck....stick with the queen of the skies and dont go down that boring low cost operator route. Its a breath of fresh air to see someone doing it different and long may it continue. I bet you could keep your planes full with eager spotters just wanting to experience the thrill of a 0.88 cruise
and a speed brake like someone,s cut the wings off!
Talk Mr Newnham into doing a few airshow flypasts....it works for Atlantic and reminds the public of what a slick looking aircraft Mr Boeing used to make.
One last queery.....has November India been cut been up yet? Lady Patricia was a fine ship and deserves a better end.....how about turning her into a restraunt at Stansted!!
November Delta is featured in this months Airliners Mag in an Arkia Leasing article resplendent in the Sabre Livery.
Well good luck all you Cat Club members and keep yer chin up!
Have toolbox, will travel
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Lady Patricia
Where would the lovely Lady P be these days?
She is/was machine.. I spent many a day riding her around the states when she was on short-term lease to my former employer.. She never let me down after our hangar crew worked her bugs out.. She just needed a can of 2380 from time to time.
As a matter of fact, I recall sharing a "moment" with one of our trolly dollys late one night in the aft lav on that fine aeromachine.. Nothing like a lil lovin at FL330.
Good ole G-BNNI
Ahhh, the memories..
She is/was machine.. I spent many a day riding her around the states when she was on short-term lease to my former employer.. She never let me down after our hangar crew worked her bugs out.. She just needed a can of 2380 from time to time.
As a matter of fact, I recall sharing a "moment" with one of our trolly dollys late one night in the aft lav on that fine aeromachine.. Nothing like a lil lovin at FL330.
Good ole G-BNNI
Ahhh, the memories..
Stage 3??????
I think that you might find that the cumulative delta noise difference between the hushkitted B727 certified limit and the Stage 3 limits is less than 1 dBa. There is also a certain logic to climbing a noisy aircraft on full power and the highest climb rate, it makes sense that an aircraft this noisy is doing so.
Mutt.
I think that you might find that the cumulative delta noise difference between the hushkitted B727 certified limit and the Stage 3 limits is less than 1 dBa. There is also a certain logic to climbing a noisy aircraft on full power and the highest climb rate, it makes sense that an aircraft this noisy is doing so.
Mutt.
Last edited by mutt; 5th Jul 2002 at 12:58.
Engineer
I didn’t say that the aircraft cannot meet the certification. What I said was that the aircraft was within 1dBA of the certification limit based on the cumulative totals for takeoff, lateral and approach noise levels.
For comparison, a B747-100 is 3 dBA quieter than a hushkitted 727-100.
My data comes from having to establish with the DGAC a list of aircraft that we were permitted to operate into CDG at night. Neither of the two above are permitted regardless of the stage-3 certification.
If you want to show that your aircraft is different, give me the certified noise levels from the AFM.
Cheers
mutt
I didn’t say that the aircraft cannot meet the certification. What I said was that the aircraft was within 1dBA of the certification limit based on the cumulative totals for takeoff, lateral and approach noise levels.
For comparison, a B747-100 is 3 dBA quieter than a hushkitted 727-100.
My data comes from having to establish with the DGAC a list of aircraft that we were permitted to operate into CDG at night. Neither of the two above are permitted regardless of the stage-3 certification.
If you want to show that your aircraft is different, give me the certified noise levels from the AFM.
Cheers
mutt
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Mutt
Point taken but it is my impression that the 727 operated is a 200series with 2 -217 and a -17A engine in the centre. Correct me if I am wrong. In this respect one would imagine that the aircraft noise certification would be better than that of a 74 100.
Looking for a good web site that can specify stage 3 requirement if any one knows one
Point taken but it is my impression that the 727 operated is a 200series with 2 -217 and a -17A engine in the centre. Correct me if I am wrong. In this respect one would imagine that the aircraft noise certification would be better than that of a 74 100.
Looking for a good web site that can specify stage 3 requirement if any one knows one
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G-BNNI Lady Patricia
Continuous Ignition
Lady Patricia is in London Southend in a very stripped state. Having over 1000 hours in her since I flew her in Dan Air and Sabre, I've seen her look much better.
You also wanted the web address of the unofficial boeing 727 web site.
http://www.boeing-727.com/
Coopervane[U]
What a novel idea turning the old girl into a restaurant! It is a shame that the BAA at Stansted charge so much for parking. I think by the time one has covered the overheads of parking catering and security the head price per meal would be circa £500.00 per head without the wine or stealing the crockery and cuttlery.
Lady Patricia is in London Southend in a very stripped state. Having over 1000 hours in her since I flew her in Dan Air and Sabre, I've seen her look much better.
You also wanted the web address of the unofficial boeing 727 web site.
http://www.boeing-727.com/
Coopervane[U]
What a novel idea turning the old girl into a restaurant! It is a shame that the BAA at Stansted charge so much for parking. I think by the time one has covered the overheads of parking catering and security the head price per meal would be circa £500.00 per head without the wine or stealing the crockery and cuttlery.
Oops pardon me
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Lady Patricia
Well if those meanies at Stansted cant accomodate Lady Paticia as a Cafe the there is always room in my back garden......Maybe those inspection dudes at Heaveylift can look again at the old girl and get her put back together...I have seen a lot worse 727,s flying around and a lot older too. Come on ....reverse the trend ....spend a few bob and get her flying again.........always was an aviation romantic rather than a bean counter.
I mean .......all you inovators at Cougar......and i am sure she would make a great SUPER....regards
I mean .......all you inovators at Cougar......and i am sure she would make a great SUPER....regards
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Lady Patricia
It would take a magician to restore her to any semblance of her former glory especially "for a few bob" I've seen vultures leave more on a carcass after they have finished.
I personally am open minded about miracles, but on this occasion I would be inclined to recommend that you pay a visit to her at Southend and pay your last respects! I believe that she has even received her last rites! I will always try to remember her in either of her resplendent liveries (Dan-Air, Sun Country, or Sabre) cruising up where she belongs in excess of M .81
This is not to say that if enough individuals felt sorry enough for her that she could not be restored (at huge expense) for the sake of nostalgia. She would make a lovely corporate aircraft if someone wanted to give her a good home. Any takers?
I personally am open minded about miracles, but on this occasion I would be inclined to recommend that you pay a visit to her at Southend and pay your last respects! I believe that she has even received her last rites! I will always try to remember her in either of her resplendent liveries (Dan-Air, Sun Country, or Sabre) cruising up where she belongs in excess of M .81
This is not to say that if enough individuals felt sorry enough for her that she could not be restored (at huge expense) for the sake of nostalgia. She would make a lovely corporate aircraft if someone wanted to give her a good home. Any takers?