Atlas Air preparing to Strike
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 32
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From: southern calif.
Kids'
contrary to popular misconception the eu pilots of AACS (gss is just a subset of aacs, so they are not stand-alone, they are all FAA certificated and atlas trained and paid) are cheaper than mainline, that is not correct, in fact AACS pilots are paid substancially MORE than Atlas Mainline pilots, and enjoy a large number of perks and so on that are denied the mainline pilots, not to mention being shielded from being made 'redundant' as has become the fate of over 200 of their far more senior mainline crewmembers. AACS is a sham organization, and GSS is a front for Atlas, pure and simple. The issue has never been eu vs. us, it has always been mgt. vs labor, and I see shortly that the folks at AACS will be in the position of taking sides in that arguement in a very public manner come the first week in July. Remember folks, the people who would cross a picket line to fly struck cargo/airplanes at Atlas would do the same thing to all the carriers in the eu, scabs have no loyalty wherever they come from.
contrary to popular misconception the eu pilots of AACS (gss is just a subset of aacs, so they are not stand-alone, they are all FAA certificated and atlas trained and paid) are cheaper than mainline, that is not correct, in fact AACS pilots are paid substancially MORE than Atlas Mainline pilots, and enjoy a large number of perks and so on that are denied the mainline pilots, not to mention being shielded from being made 'redundant' as has become the fate of over 200 of their far more senior mainline crewmembers. AACS is a sham organization, and GSS is a front for Atlas, pure and simple. The issue has never been eu vs. us, it has always been mgt. vs labor, and I see shortly that the folks at AACS will be in the position of taking sides in that arguement in a very public manner come the first week in July. Remember folks, the people who would cross a picket line to fly struck cargo/airplanes at Atlas would do the same thing to all the carriers in the eu, scabs have no loyalty wherever they come from.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
Partyreptile,
Contrary to your misconception, the GSS pilots will not be FAA licenced or trained by necessity, only by co-incidence. GSS was set up in response to the CAA's inistance (thanks to the continous and persistant pressure from BALPA), due to British Airways long term 'flagging out' of their World Cargo contract to Atlas. GSS pilots will have to have JAA licenses regardless of any FAA licences they may hold, and the rgiht to live and work in the EEC - just as GSS has to be 51% EU owned.
You can argue that this situation is a sham and that GSS is just another fron to AACS or Atlas, but these are the facts.
Contrary to your misconception, the GSS pilots will not be FAA licenced or trained by necessity, only by co-incidence. GSS was set up in response to the CAA's inistance (thanks to the continous and persistant pressure from BALPA), due to British Airways long term 'flagging out' of their World Cargo contract to Atlas. GSS pilots will have to have JAA licenses regardless of any FAA licences they may hold, and the rgiht to live and work in the EEC - just as GSS has to be 51% EU owned.
You can argue that this situation is a sham and that GSS is just another fron to AACS or Atlas, but these are the facts.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
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From: wherever I lay my hat...
Actually, Dan Winterland, BALPA couldn't give a monkeys about flagging out - especially when the client is BA. It was the IPA that managed to get things on a fairer footing.
It's great to see Brit pilots flying for BA rather than Yank ones nicking their jobs. Lets hope the same thing happens at AZ, EK, AF, TNT etc.
It's great to see Brit pilots flying for BA rather than Yank ones nicking their jobs. Lets hope the same thing happens at AZ, EK, AF, TNT etc.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 36
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From: Remulak
Hang in PartyReptile,
In the past , and in the future the SCABS will get it in the end.
I can't wait. they can all go and work in the big bad EU.
the only reason we have 65000 ALPA members in the U.S.A is because we can!!
In the past , and in the future the SCABS will get it in the end.
I can't wait. they can all go and work in the big bad EU.
the only reason we have 65000 ALPA members in the U.S.A is because we can!!
Person Of Interest
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 842
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From: Keystone Heights, Florida
Broke...
A couple of my friends just got hired over at Southern...not a great job by any means, but not a lateral move when one considers they're moving from a narrow body without a type, to a wide body with the type rating paid for...
What would you call them if they end up with some of Atlas' contracts?
Hopefully you won't end up like your name...Broke...but then again, you have your 65,000 brothers to hit up for a handout if it comes to that...
A couple of my friends just got hired over at Southern...not a great job by any means, but not a lateral move when one considers they're moving from a narrow body without a type, to a wide body with the type rating paid for...
What would you call them if they end up with some of Atlas' contracts?
Hopefully you won't end up like your name...Broke...but then again, you have your 65,000 brothers to hit up for a handout if it comes to that...
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 36
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From: Remulak
I once have worked at Southern Air Transport. Big Bad Wide Body,,,, narrow body Pay! . I think you missed the point . It was a ref to Atlas Alpa Contract . and just support for PartyReptile dude . Hey good for your friends , not sure what your getting at but Southern flying Cargo has nothing to do with with Provisions of title II of the Railway Labor Act . so to your question , your friends with thier new job is just what it is , Dudes flying Boxes during really bad hours to really bad parts of the world for really really really BAD Pay!
Later
Later
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
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From: Europe
Dan Winterland,
Your saying that GSS is not Atlas......
Who paid for your type rating, licence (FAA initialy)????
Where is your head office or should I say which office space do you share?????
Are you flying a new contract or was it an Atlas Air contract????
I have the answers to the above questions if you don't, please email me......
Your saying that GSS is not Atlas......
Who paid for your type rating, licence (FAA initialy)????
Where is your head office or should I say which office space do you share?????
Are you flying a new contract or was it an Atlas Air contract????
I have the answers to the above questions if you don't, please email me......
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 107
From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Incidently the "new" Souther Air's pay scale and conditions of employment is a true copy of Atlas's.
Got a job offer from Southern Air September 2000, but turned it down due to lack of adult compensation.
The chief pilot said he understood.
Hope there will be no strike over at Atlas, but can understand why the drivers are ticked off.
Is there any contact between the pilot groups of Atlas and AACS?
As in "What if" there is a strike.
Would any of the AACS guys be loyal and call in sick, or simply refuse to fly struck freight?
Where is the Polar guys in all this? Is there anything in Polar's ALPA contract about flying for carriers on strike?
Good luck...
Got a job offer from Southern Air September 2000, but turned it down due to lack of adult compensation.
The chief pilot said he understood.
Hope there will be no strike over at Atlas, but can understand why the drivers are ticked off.
Is there any contact between the pilot groups of Atlas and AACS?
As in "What if" there is a strike.
Would any of the AACS guys be loyal and call in sick, or simply refuse to fly struck freight?
Where is the Polar guys in all this? Is there anything in Polar's ALPA contract about flying for carriers on strike?
Good luck...
Top Dog
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,098
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From: Close to FACT
Perhaps slightly off topic. I hear 5Y rented a VIP chalet & provided hospitality at the YMX F1 Grand Prix for a staggering amount of money ie $ 6 figures (and the first number wasn't a 1 or a 2...).
Top Dog
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,098
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From: Close to FACT
Watch it or I'll ban ya!
How was work? All went fine in MUC, got in and out before Atlas did in this morning!
Anyway, as you say, back to the topic...
How was work? All went fine in MUC, got in and out before Atlas did in this morning!
Anyway, as you say, back to the topic...
Last edited by Hogg; 12th June 2002 at 11:14.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
GTI 001,
I don't think I need to e-mail you as I know the answers to your questions. They are.....
1. Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd / Me.
2. Crawley, West Suusex, UK.
3. No contracts, just the same old Virgin routes.
But I know what you're trying to say. However, in the eyes of a Brit outsider - with regards to your other comments, the situation appears as such:
1. Technically GSS is not Atlas. It is majority owned by a EU company.
2. GSS will be flying the ACMI contract that Atlas flew for the British national airline. Atlas will soon have to stop flying that contract on the demands of the UK CAA. GSS was created to fly that one contract. If GSS didn't fly it, someone else would. But not Atlas in it's present form - i.e. a non EU operation.
These are of course my own assumptions, but heavily based on the facts.
I don't think I need to e-mail you as I know the answers to your questions. They are.....
1. Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd / Me.
2. Crawley, West Suusex, UK.
3. No contracts, just the same old Virgin routes.
But I know what you're trying to say. However, in the eyes of a Brit outsider - with regards to your other comments, the situation appears as such:
1. Technically GSS is not Atlas. It is majority owned by a EU company.
2. GSS will be flying the ACMI contract that Atlas flew for the British national airline. Atlas will soon have to stop flying that contract on the demands of the UK CAA. GSS was created to fly that one contract. If GSS didn't fly it, someone else would. But not Atlas in it's present form - i.e. a non EU operation.
These are of course my own assumptions, but heavily based on the facts.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 33
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From: Asia
Another rEAL disaster looming?
Heard a discussion among several very committed Atlas pilots in ANC last week re: the upcoming strike - specifically, whether or not the Atlas / AACS pilots based at STN would fly during the strike.
The gist of it was that the Atlas 'mainline' pilots regard their AACS cousins as potential 'scabs'; and that those who crossed the line and flew would be hounded forever more...
As an interested and well-intentioned outsider, I introduced myself and asked the following question:
- Did not the STN-based pilots each have an individual employment contracts not with Atlas but with the wholly-owned subsidiary company? and
- With no union representation at the STN base and no provisions in their individual contracts to withhold their services in support of their 'mainline' cousins, would not the STN pilots who did support the strike likely forfeit their jobs with no hope of going back to work? and
- Would the 'mainline' pilots protect those AACS pilots who stayed out in sympathy by refraining from a 'back to work' agreement ending the strike until the AACS jobs were restored (as the UAL pilots did for the '570' pre-hires in the mid-eighties)?
To my surprise, no one at the table could offer an informed response.
I further asked if their was sufficient excess capacity at Polar to generate a revenue stream that would see the company through an extended strike, to which the group responded "the Polar guys won't screw us".
I then went on to ask "what if Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings [the parent corporation to Polar, Atlas, and AACS] sells, and they (sympathetic Polar pilots), are assigned 'extra section' flights under their own call sign - in other words, not 'struck work')"?
Would not Polar pilots who withhold their services from their own company in sympathy to the Atlas pilots
(a) be conducting an illegal job action since they have not been released by the National Mediation Board to pursue self help? and
(b) expose ALPA to potential legal action and penalty in the same fashion as the AA pilots after their illegal 'sickout' some years ago? and
(c) expose Polar pilots individually to potential discipline or termination in similar fashion to AACS pilots who withheld their services?
Clearly I had 'crossed a line' (pun intended) with such questions, for the response that came back was "Whose side are you on?"
Regretting having become involved in the conversation in the first place, I expressed my sympathy for their plight and my support for their cause and before wishing them well and saying goodbye.
As I left the encounter, I could not help but feel
- the suspicion that the implications of a full-on strike (as opposed to a slowdown or sporadic interruption of services) may not have yet been communicated among their group; and
- the fear that these brave men and women might 'fight the good fight' only to go down the same road as the Eastern pilots 13 years ago...
"...we won the battle but lost the war..."
Someone please say it won't be so.
The gist of it was that the Atlas 'mainline' pilots regard their AACS cousins as potential 'scabs'; and that those who crossed the line and flew would be hounded forever more...
As an interested and well-intentioned outsider, I introduced myself and asked the following question:
- Did not the STN-based pilots each have an individual employment contracts not with Atlas but with the wholly-owned subsidiary company? and
- With no union representation at the STN base and no provisions in their individual contracts to withhold their services in support of their 'mainline' cousins, would not the STN pilots who did support the strike likely forfeit their jobs with no hope of going back to work? and
- Would the 'mainline' pilots protect those AACS pilots who stayed out in sympathy by refraining from a 'back to work' agreement ending the strike until the AACS jobs were restored (as the UAL pilots did for the '570' pre-hires in the mid-eighties)?
To my surprise, no one at the table could offer an informed response.
I further asked if their was sufficient excess capacity at Polar to generate a revenue stream that would see the company through an extended strike, to which the group responded "the Polar guys won't screw us".
I then went on to ask "what if Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings [the parent corporation to Polar, Atlas, and AACS] sells, and they (sympathetic Polar pilots), are assigned 'extra section' flights under their own call sign - in other words, not 'struck work')"?
Would not Polar pilots who withhold their services from their own company in sympathy to the Atlas pilots
(a) be conducting an illegal job action since they have not been released by the National Mediation Board to pursue self help? and
(b) expose ALPA to potential legal action and penalty in the same fashion as the AA pilots after their illegal 'sickout' some years ago? and
(c) expose Polar pilots individually to potential discipline or termination in similar fashion to AACS pilots who withheld their services?
Clearly I had 'crossed a line' (pun intended) with such questions, for the response that came back was "Whose side are you on?"
Regretting having become involved in the conversation in the first place, I expressed my sympathy for their plight and my support for their cause and before wishing them well and saying goodbye.
As I left the encounter, I could not help but feel
- the suspicion that the implications of a full-on strike (as opposed to a slowdown or sporadic interruption of services) may not have yet been communicated among their group; and
- the fear that these brave men and women might 'fight the good fight' only to go down the same road as the Eastern pilots 13 years ago...
"...we won the battle but lost the war..."
Someone please say it won't be so.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
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From: Europe
B747 400 CA,
Pilots in 'mainline' Atlas lost their jobs 2 years ago when AACS was created....
Who are they fighting against????? Atlas Air?????
Atlas air does not own any assets, it's only a business name.
Atlas air Holdings owns everything, time will tell but 'mainline' is dead......
July will be a very busy month......can't wait!!!!
Pilots in 'mainline' Atlas lost their jobs 2 years ago when AACS was created....
Who are they fighting against????? Atlas Air?????
Atlas air does not own any assets, it's only a business name.
Atlas air Holdings owns everything, time will tell but 'mainline' is dead......
July will be a very busy month......can't wait!!!!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,627
Likes: 2
From: UTC +8
No doubt, if the mainlanders walk then the AACS boys will become very busy. And in case of a sustained work stoppage, there'll be vacancies to fill at AACS. Especially left seat vacancies which would provide irresistible opportunities for prospective mainlander scabs.
Something was learned from the group dynamics of the ComAir pilots: A strike which had lasted several months without producing one (non management) scab! It was the "tightest" pilot group on record. Will the Atlas pilots be this strong and determined?
There are no desperate situations, only desperate people.
Something was learned from the group dynamics of the ComAir pilots: A strike which had lasted several months without producing one (non management) scab! It was the "tightest" pilot group on record. Will the Atlas pilots be this strong and determined?
There are no desperate situations, only desperate people.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: USA
Atlas Air is actively shopping their 5 new 747's around to other airlines. Seems Atlas has no work for them and wants another airline to take delivery. What are the chances some other carrier can find a use for them though if Atlas can't place them?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,780
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
GTI001...enjoy your new found windfall....remember the folks who made it all possible....the very atlas mainline crew who made it all possible...so enjoy.....live by the sword....die by the sword.....cheerio