Bellyhold capacities

[The SSK]

Could someone give me a rough idea of the available tonnage for freight on a passenger 744, 777, 787, 330, 340, 380? Say, on a 6000km sector with an 80% pax load factor.

Context is - do the aircraft coming onstream have significantly greater uplift capability than the ones they replace ... are we facing overcapacity at a time when the market is depressed anyway (of just beginning to emerge from a huge depression).

Thanks, The SSK

[SMT Member]

Can't help you with all of those types, but the 77W and 77L have a maximum certified lower-deck capacity of around 52 tons. The holds are certified for loose-loading, if anyone fancies having a go at 6 hour turn-around times. Whether or not the capacity can be fully utilised, is of course a question of MTOW vs MZFW vs MLAW and various performance restrictions.

[G&T ice n slice]

Hummm...

trouble with trying to give a 'ball park' type set of numbers is that no-one ever agrees with anything..

has to do with the "volume" payload as well as the "weight" payload. The volume payload is determined by the way a carrier handles the baggage issues and how well those are handle - a carrier with a well-tuned system will release "baggage" capacity to their cargo colleagues in time for the cargo side to take advantage of any increase. Carriers with badly-tuned systems sit rigidly on their baggage capacity right up to close out (and then blame the cargo people for not utilising all the spare space, been there ...)

Effectively a flight starts its life in the CRS at 1 year ahead, assumes 100% pax LF and that determines the nbr of containers for baggage and then what's left is allocated to cargo.

So on a 744 that might mean that cargo is allocated 5 pallets (usually) plus 4 containers.

using "average" cargo densities roughly that translates into 5 x 2,500kg on pallets and 4 x 1,000kg in containers

So thats 16,500 kgs.

A well-oiled system will gradually change the baggage ratio releasing volume to the cargo side.

But as a very rough guide on a 6000kms sector, none of the widebodies is going to be payload limited these days.. so here goes from experience

744 16,500Kg
777-300 19,000Kg
777-200 17,000Kg
A340 18,500Kg
A330-300 18,500Kg
A330-200 15,000
787 still only the little one but around 16,500Kg
A380 16,500Kg (it seems a bit of a strange beast under the floor)
B767-200 10,500
B767-300 14,500
all to the nearest half tonne

These are averages on "good" cargo sectors from various sources.

I could go into detail, but that costs you money....

[118.70]

Interesting to see your figures.

I had just been reading a response that AICES (Association of International Courier and Express Services) submitted for the consultation on night flights which gave the impression that new A380 planes were well short of freight capacity :

The Government should take into account in forward planning the pressure that will be put on bellyhold express freight at Heathrow as a result of the move to A380 aircraft. These aircraft could actually restrict air freight movements and lead to movement of materials and associated jobs and infrastructure to other European airport hubs. Despite its significantly greater size and passenger carrying capacity, the A380 has around 50% less cargo carrying capacity than a Boeing 777-300 which is currently the optimum aircraft for carrying bellyhold freight. For example two 777-300 aircraft carry the same number of passengers as one A380, with up to 18 canisters of freight whilst the A380 carries only 4 of the same size cans. The Department needs to consider the impact on express of such a change in aircraft usage given the potential impact on the wider economy.

[G&T ice n slice]

Well, the A380 is a bit of an odd beast under the floor.

Emirates are suggesting that for cargo 3 LDP pallets & 5 LDC

QANTAS are suggesting 5 LDP & 3 LDC

LDP= pallet 88 or 96 by 125
LDC= your generic baggage container

It is probable that there is less cargo capacity by volume (not weight) but it is highly dependant on all-up-pax (more pax = more LDC for baggage = less cargo)

It is not in the 777-300 class cargo wise

(an remember I was taking numbers (a) out of my head but they're usually fairly accurate and (b) I did say "good" cargo sectors. It'd be a different sert of numbers if I selected a icy monday morning from Europe in January...

[Cough]

Have a look at an Emirates Cargo page to get an idea how good the A380 is

[G&T ice n slice]

I know.

Without giving away trade secrets, they're generally doing a LOT better than that on quite a few sectors, as far as I can tell.

I suspect that they are very nimble when it comes to maximum utilisation of the under the floor.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Spoke with an Airbus guy recently and he acknowledged the 380 wasn't designed for much belly cargo. It's not until the 359 comes online that Airbus will have something to compete with the 773.

Also understand BA have modded their 388 for more cargo on LHR/JNB route. Not sure what the mod is or why others haven't followed suit.

[G&T ice n slice]

Looking at the Airbus online docs.

the forward hold has :
option (1) 20 LDC or 7 Pallets
option (2) 22 LDC or 7 Pallets

I'm guessing that would be combinations of
6 LDC 5 pallets
12 LDC 3 pallets


The rear hold has
option (1) 16 LDC
option (2) 6 LDC and 3 Pallets
option (3) 6 pallets. I must assume that the additional 3 pallets are located for-aft in the space between wheel-wells. (a la Emirates)

Emirates are obviously fixing their configuration around 22 LDC and 6 pallets total

Qantas appear to be fixing the config around 18 LDC and 5 pallets. Which is a bit odd, because I make that 2 LDC short even on the option (1) configs by Airbus. QF are saying the cargo cap with 100% pax is 5 pallets plus 3 LDC.

In both cases I would anticipate cargo loads as:
EK 6 pallets = 12,000 to 15,000Kg (volume limit fairly average cargo)
QF 5LDP+3LDC = 12,500 to 15,500 (ditto)

That's on a non-payload limit op as per the original question i.e. 6,000 Km and making no allowances for extra cap through handover un-needed LDC from pax.

The whole lot goes out the window if you use a lower average cargo density of course.

[The SSK]

Thanks G'n'T I'n'S

That's just what I was looking for. Cheque is in the post.

744 16,500Kg
777-300 19,000Kg
777-200 17,000Kg
A340 18,500Kg
A330-300 18,500Kg
A330-200 15,000
787 still only the little one but around 16,500Kg
A380 16,500Kg (it seems a bit of a strange beast under the floor)
B767-200 10,500
B767-300 14,500
all to the nearest half tonne

So it all depends what replaces what, If a 773 replaces a 744, capacity is up. If an A380 or 787 replaces a 333/340, capacity is down
If a 773 replaces 333/340 or a 380 replaces a 744, not much changes. Anything replacing a 332 will increase the uplift.

Context is - do the aircraft coming onstream have significantly greater uplift capability than the ones they replace ... are we facing overcapacity at a time when the market is depressed anyway (of just beginning to emerge from a huge depression).

Hypothesis not proven

[G&T ice n slice]

I think there were a couple of step-changes

(1) the arrival of the DC10/L1011/747

(2) replacement of the above with the MD11 & 747 BUT on many routes the replacement of the above with the 767 was for cargo retrograde

(3) I think it was the A340 that first made me start checking a lot of numbers when AC started transatlantic and averaging 20-23 tonnes westbound ex LHR & FRA

(4) the 777 family

Tha A380 is like the 747, good for pax but less of a cargo lifter, unless you have the Combi version (ah, but not yet fior the A380 and the 747-8i)