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Teamsters shreading Polar quality of life contract

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Teamsters shreading Polar quality of life contract

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Old 24th Aug 2010, 15:08
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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duty rig and overnights in base

Duty rig at Polar does not stop because you are in base.. you are still guaranteed 65 hours for your line even if you are on a base layover. and all lines never exceed 17 days including days in base as long as there are lines that are 15 days or less that equally off set the 17 day lines.. many of our lines are as low as 13 days. and those too are guaranteed to a minimum of 65 hours. any reserve line is guaranteed 65 hours and 16 days work. If a reserve gets extended we get 4.2 hours duty rig per day or flying time whichever is greater and the 2-4-6-6-hours pay OT on top of the guaranteed rig or flying time. Again OT is added above guarantee or flying time..and we cannot be extended more than 3 days on a reserve line unless he agrees to the assignment.. And they cannot extend you without guaranteeing that you have a flight b4 the extension. Line holders never can be assigned reserve in their line or extended. in either case if those parameters are not met the Polar Pilot can refuse the assignment. If for some reason like a plane breakdown and a line holder; or reserve over 19 days is extended because the Co. cannot get him home.. its 12 hours OT per day guaranteed on top of rig or flying time.

you are misinformed about the Polar Contract.

respectfully your Polar Brother

Last edited by agmonaco; 24th Aug 2010 at 16:18.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 00:40
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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So.. as far as section 25 goes for the Polar Pilots.. Our contract has been decimated. I see so much conflict here. I have never talked to a Atlas Pilot that didn't envy our duty rigs. We can plan our lives at Polar. The company cannot move our days off. So let me ask any of you a question.. Does anyone know what they agreed to on section 25? DW and BK from what I hear were excluded from the final decision. And DW helped write our Polar contract where it was iron clad. The BS of "the company will make it's best effort" lies".... only applied to breakfast for us and many things at Atlas.The Company only made their best effort not to get us breakfast..And Atlas.. where did they ever make their best effort on your contract? Hmmmm. The Polar Pilots are a vital part of this airline.. and deserve good representation. What was received for sacrificing the Polar scheduling work rules?.. was it worth it? We will see... and I bet the new contract is a sieve like Atlas's old one. Our MEC never gave up our rights without a vote like at Atlas. You need DW and BK.. They are a huge asset.. in my humble opinion. The Polar Contract was better contract than the Atlas one in all aspects except hourly pay.. We are all in this together.. Polar Pilots are not going away. JM says our new contract will be one of the best.. compared to whose? Evergreen? Who else fly's 20 days a month and cannot depend on a day off not to be moved now? Yes Atlas has benefited from the way Polar has been treated in the past..all the growth has gone to Atlas and we have been squeezed down to 6 aircraft with many of our flights flown by Atlas. We Polar Pilots are' the red headed step children.. But soon we will all be the red headed step children in a merged seniority list.. I am sure of that..

I hope I am soooo wrong about our new contract......

agmonaco

Last edited by agmonaco; 26th Aug 2010 at 02:41.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 01:14
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Oh God, I think I am going to puke!
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 01:56
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Fr8dog must of just heard about Polar Option 1.. Yaa I'd puke too if I knew I gave that one up for nothing.. That was when the Company gave a Polar line holder a schedule change in his line after he left base.. then when he passed through his base again he could quit flying for the month and go home and still paid his minimum 65 hour guarantee. yaa I am sure our neg. committee gave up that one. and fr8dog?!.. after you're done.. tell me what we got for that work rule!

Last edited by agmonaco; 26th Aug 2010 at 02:15.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 14:43
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Fr8dog must of just heard about Polar Option 1.. Yaa I'd puke too if I knew I gave that one up for nothing.. That was when the Company gave a Polar line holder a schedule change in his line after he left base.. then when he passed through his base again he could quit flying for the month and go home and still paid his minimum 65 hour guarantee. yaa I am sure our neg. committee gave up that one. and fr8dog?!.. after you're done.. tell me what we got for that work rule!
Please explain the logic in such a rule, except to be a pain. This kind of rule is proof that Polar had no plans to ever follow any of these rules because Polar was going to be shut down or sold.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 15:37
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Good news! Delta's hiring. So's Air Tran and Jet Blue.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 18:57
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It is incredible the amount of contempt some' of you have for the Polar Pilots. The majority of you that fly on our aircraft and that I have met are great. For what ever reason these work rules of ours that were negotiated were hard fraught for and agreed to by the company. I am sure there was a lot of give and take in the process. Some of you have the opinion that we were going to cross your potential picket line when you threatened to strike years ago. I find that totally inconsistent with the Polar Pilot group, knowing them so well, considering no Polar Pilot ever crossed our Picket line during our strike. And the belief within our group is totally to the contrary that anyone would cross yours ever. We both benefit from the good points of each others contract as far as future negotiating value to our future contract. Except for what may of happened just now with section 25. As far as the future sale of Polar, I find that amuzing considering how much money we make for AWH. And the Polar Pilot group is a hard workng bunch when we are on duty. 99% on time reliability with Polar and the huge loads. And we want nothing at your expense at Atlas, believe me.We wish all of you felt the same.. obviously not considering some of these remarks.. Divide and conquer.. That hurts us all.
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Old 26th Aug 2010, 20:03
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Time for some rumor control, fact checking and truth telling.

FACT:
  1. DW and BK have been at EVERY meeting.unless THEY chose to no show it.
  2. They AGREED with everyone on the TA. To say that they have been less than honest with you and the Polar pilots would be the understatement of the year.
  3. Dave Bourne has NOT been at any of our negotiations. With the exception of one meeting where he stuck his head in and asked, "how's it going?" He hasn't been involved with our discussions. Ask BK and DW's. Here's what Bourne did do when he stuck his head in. We heard BK asked for his help. Seems someone on the Polar side "forgot" to schedule an arbitration hearing and a guy got terminated. BK then ASKED Bourne in front of everyone for his help. Bourne called the company and got them to agree to hold the hearing. Your guy got his job back.
  4. BK insisted Bourne come to dinner with everyone and had no problem glad handing him and saying it wouldn't have happened without Bourne's help.
FANTASY:
  1. "We have been squeezed down to 6 aircraft with many of our flights flown by Atlas."
MORE FACTS:


Polar artificially grew when the Atlas Classic's were moved to Polar and over 250 Atlas crewmembers were furloughed as retribution for us signing a contract. Those aircraft were Atlas aircraft, yet when they came back to Atlas, Polar demanded that our crewmembers be denied their seats on their own aircraft. During 2001, Bob Fell, your MEC Chairman who had been invited to sit in on our negotiations. BF was advised that the company plan at the time of merger was that Polar's crew force would be approximately 150 pilots for the -400 fleet crew force. This was confirmed to him in a memo from Everett Barber, your ALPA contract administrator who was also there at the negotiations. Here in PDF

The above referenced memo was "missing" during your merger committee's seniority presentation. We had it. And is pissed the arbitrator off that your side eventually admitted to knowing about it, but "forgot" to include it. Then asked us for a "copy." (You can thank Henderson, Hair and Katz for that).

The reason Polar shrank was the direct result of two things. First, the company TOLD your leadership what the merger sized Polar would be in 2001. The fact that BF, BH and the rest lied to you about it is something you need to ask them about. Demand answers why. Truth is, they knew it, our MEC told them they needed to come clean and they decided you didn't deserve to be told.

Remember when Polar was going to be the surviving carrier? Instead of being smart and finding ways to mend fences, your MEC and Negotiating Chairman went out of their way to keep sticking management in the eye. Result? They decided that your leadership couldn't be trusted and they changed their mind about the survivor.

Another fact, your scope is worthless. So are most. As proven by the arbitration that was guaranteed to give you back all your planes, flying and everything else that BH lost. Why? Because as the arbitrator said, you can't argue one sentence, you must prove the totality. And your scope clearly allows the company to operate its business in a manner it sees fit. In reality; as BH "forgot" to tell you, no court in the land will allow a labor group to force a company to operate its enterprise in a manner that is detrimental to the survival of the business. In the extreme, it's called "force majeure" and is used to gut a contract in bankruptcy? The planes, flying and customers belong to the corporation, not the pilot group and Polar found that out.

Do you get more poking them in the eye or flying to Purchase with Prater's toadie Randy Helling and calling them liars before the meeting on scope even before the meeting starts or do you get more by trying to find ways to work together in the beginning? The answer by now should be pretty clear. Standing their pissing on the new guys desk before even saying hello is a guarantee to make him a lifelong enemy under any conditions despite being unprofessional.

BTW, this is the same thing Bobb and Robin Hair did the very first time they met Flynn, who hadn't been on the job but a few weeks. Said the new CEO had to be a liar because he was sitting there with his management team. Not a great way to start a negotiation to say the least.

If you want to know where your jobs have gone, look at Bobb, look at BK. Ask Fell why he didn't "fess up about 150 jobs and no Classic's advised by the company. Look at your negotiators and look at Prater's ALPA. Instead of reigning in the actions of Bobb H, knowing it would cost you jobs, they fed his ego and belief that he was a genius. The same Bobb who told us and our MEC in 2003 that the loss of 250-300 jobs was "acceptable collateral damage" for him to never wear an Atlas uniform. Got to wonder how those guys and their families feel about that.

Poor Bobb. He's living on a junk houseboat tied up in the Bahamas and throwing Jimmy Buffett theme parties. He's a big wheel out there. How many Polar guys are out of jobs because of his ego? How many more jobs will be lost because BK is doing the same thing?

Here is what is really sad. Right now, we'd be finishing up negotiations on our SECOND, post bankruptcy contract if Bobb had shown any integrity and shown any real concern for the Polar crewmembers he claimed he was representing. Instead, we're where we are. And with just one customer, you are at more risk than anyone until this JCBA is done.

And a DFR? Well, I guess if you have guys who want to pull out their checkbooks, so be it.

Last edited by nitty-gritty; 26th Aug 2010 at 21:41.
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Old 27th Aug 2010, 00:01
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting my last thread was not posted but responded to.. Again my point is is that it is incredible the contempt some of the Atlas Pilots have for the Polar Pilots. As far as 250 furloughs were caused to Atlas by Polar is a stretch. B4 the Polar strike we had 11 aircraft and we were shrunk to 7 and now 6. I was furloughed for 14 months a year after the Polar strike.. due to our' reduction. And Atlas does' fly our scheduled Polar flights when Polar Aircraft are in maintenance We never fly Atlas flights. Like I said b4.. the majority of the Atlas Pilots are great. The ones that have such contempt for us is interesting considering we really never had any effect on ACMI. We are scheduled freight for DHL and Polar, but we do kinda compete with Atlas against the carriers they fly for. and we make a ton of money for AWH.. Polar is 99% on time and reliable.. and we are a hard working bunch when we are scheduled to fly.

My' whole point here was the Scheduling rigs that Polar fraught so hard for have been given up and I do not know yet what for except a 17 plus 3 work month. I have heard many of my Atlas Brothers complain bitterly about their work rules or lack there of. I HAVE NOT BEEN ANSWERED YET. What did we get in return for the Polar rigs that were of equal value.. or did we give them up for free?. No one has answered that question..
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Old 27th Aug 2010, 23:41
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man you guys are relentless. agree to disagree and move the F&CK on. quit pointing fingers and figure out how BOTH sides(becoming ONE) can benefit and look to a long term future with this company. sitting here behind the anonimity of a computer is chx sh&T, instead of trying to make things worse, make them better. we will only benefit in the long run. just my 2$.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 20:57
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Amen 747, the collective few are causing more problems with their complaints than providing solutions. If you have nothing to add other than complaining about the other side, how about wrapping your lips around a beer and shut the f..k up until this is all over. If you have a chance to vote then by all means cast your vote, but if all you have to contribute is a bunch of finger pointing and bitching, than keep it to yourself.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 22:37
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An email by President Muckle on 08-20-2010 was put out to the whole of the Atlas/Polar group explaining your issue on sect. 25 in detail.

An email by the whole Atlas/Polar TEC on 08-26-2010 was put out also explained how the Atlas and Polar TEC stood on the issues and explaining such came out.

I would post them, but I thought that only members in good standing should see them and not the masses in general here.

If your not on the list for 1224 email, you chose to be left in the dark or your not a member in good standing and deserve to be left in the dark. More than likely another flunky trying the tactic below.

I believe there was no intent to just disagree here among peers.

This is just another underground effort to sway influence by the Polar TEC (source of the selective information leak), the Polar side of the neg. committee, and the ex Polar MEC to their masses again. I even have a Polar MEC chairperson in print mention how selective information could be put out on these anonymous sites for such purposes. Maybe I should post that, but I imagine I would be immediately barred due to names being included on it. Others have been barred for less on these discussions.

If anyone of the Polar group wants answers, I suggest they call the Atlas side of the TEC or even the 1224 President. It is obvious that the Polar TEC & committees do not say the whole truth, but only what they want heard when they are in a solely Polar group to stir up discontent in the hopes of getting some sort of extra influence (squeaky wheel). I've noticed they refrain from doing so when in a mixed group of the Atlas and Polar guys or committees.

Last edited by nitty-gritty; 29th Aug 2010 at 03:51.
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 01:41
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Nitty gritty said..."It is obvious that the Polar TEC & committees do not say the whole truth." I have never seen them lie. There is no upside to them lying.. Your claims are just words. unsubstantiated.

I was just wondering what Polar work rules were given up for? The truth will be quite evident soon enough when the new contract is finished. I will hold judgment 'till then.

"shut the F..K up" "Chx SH&T" mann those are ur words.. I tried to be totally above board here. People were "puking on me here.. adios.... your words define you.
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 06:28
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting research coming from the negotiating committee - stuff I bet B.K. will not be very forthcoming about: Just two of the comparisons follow. Ready for this?

The average Polar crewmember currently is actually away from home 13.5 hours longer each month than the average Atlas crewmember.

The number of scheduled days off that the company uses from each Polar crewmember is virtually the same as those used for Atlas crewmember 4.5 days PER YEAR average PER CREWMEMBER.

So all this BS is really just BS. Likely the Polar crewmembers will work 13.5 hours per month less and make almost 40% more than they currently make.

Sheeees..... sounds like SOMEONE might have a hidden agenda and is inciting his crewmembers for no good reason. hhmmmmmm.....
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Old 6th Sep 2010, 22:45
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Question

Pylot 747 opines, "...man you guys are relentless. agree to disagree and move the F&CK on. quit pointing fingers and figure out how BOTH sides(becoming ONE) can benefit and look to a long term future..."

I totally agree.

Anyone notice how the Atlas/Polar collective CBA negotiations are dominated by just a few players (ie, Nitty, Beachjet, Fr8dog, Agmonaca, and Islamorada)?

Anyone notice how childish (am too, am not) and how irrational their "points of order" are? Constantly blaming past sins by the other side for the cause of their current predicament . Neither party acknowledging, offering, or suggesting on how to resolve this Hatfield-McCoy feud.

It seems to me that this is a game of perpetual "one-upsmanship."

Kinda reminds of a song by Robert Earl Keen, "...The road goes on forever and the party never ends..."

Sad!

Last edited by JohnGalt; 6th Sep 2010 at 22:47. Reason: spelling
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Old 7th Sep 2010, 00:42
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Anytime you have two groups with strongly held beliefs, there will be debate and rancor. Bringing facts to bear to counter rumor and innuendo is never bad as long as they are verifiable.

What is important is the message to both groups sent last week:


Dear Crewmembers,

This is a Special Message from the Transitional Executive Council (TEC) and your Negotiating Committee. Your Union representatives were in Washington, DC for bargaining August 30, 2010 through September 2, 2010. We did not reach a tentative agreement; therefore, we are now preparing to submit all unresolved issues to the arbitrator for a final and binding resolution beginning October 19, 2010.

Your Union does not fear arbitration. From the beginning, we have said that we will enter into tentative agreements with management when we believe that what management is offering is as good or better than what is achievable through arbitration. If we believe we can get a better result through arbitration, we will not hesitate to reject management’s proposals in favor of litigating our dispute. We remain willing to negotiate, but we will arbitrate to protect the interests of Crewmembers and their families.

Benjamin Franklin said it best when he wrote, “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” Your Union leadership is speaking to you with a powerful and unified voice. Now is the time for Atlas and Polar Crewmembers to close ranks and unify around the singular goal of securing a CBA that rewards all Crewmembers for making the Company one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

The IBT is the largest and most powerful union in North America. The Teamsters represent employees across every craft and class in the airline industry, as well as hundreds of other industries and occupations. With 1.4 million members and vast resources, the IBT defends members’ rights from the cockpit to the halls of Congress and beyond. Rest assured that the pilot leadership at Atlas and Polar, along with every Crewmember and their families, has the full support of the IBT.

Going forward, we want every Crewmember to play an active role in the Union. Build solidarity and don’t let anyone or anything divide us. If you accept the challenge, you are not only helping your Union, you are helping to secure your own and your family’s future. Stay in touch with your Union leadership. If you have a question about your contract, contact a Union steward. Stand up for your rights and the rights of your fellow Crewmembers at Atlas and Polar. We are all in this together. Support the IBT, Local 1224, TEC and your NC. You can count on us. We know we can count on you.

We will provide additional information and updates in the future.

Fraternally,



Capt. Stephen Richards Capt. Robert Kirchner
Co-Chair, TEC Co-Chair, TEC


Capt. Robert Ulrich Capt. Daniel Wells F/O Paul Kvernplassen
Chair, Negotiating Committee Negotiating Committee Negotiating Committee


Observe this was signed by all parties on both sides. As with all negotiations, there is always more than meets the eye; that's why it is never good to bring out specifics of individual portions of a contract without the whole. Simply because nothing is final until the entire TA is signed.

Leverage begins with unity. Both sides must be part of that process.
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