Atlas Polar
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dbw
After 30 years and multible failures By ALPA , check United, USAir, Delta, Pan American, Eastern, Braniff, so on It is time for ALPA to close its doors, u failed everyone when it comes to retirement ect so on,!!! A Fireman, School Teacher, Policeman , a sh't house cleaner in NY is better of than a ALPA represented member. Shut urserf down and move on. You have lost ur Way
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Nitty-Gritty,
>Having been present for a fair chunk of what was commented on by the author makes me question how much you work with Capt Walsh and in what capacity.<
I'd say you weren't there. We don't have a dog in your fight, therefore I'm not wasting a lot of my time to duel here. However:
>I’d like to point out that this is the same Pat Walsh who not only worked feverishly to revoke our access and membership in favor of Polar’s in GCAP (the Global Cargo Pilots Alliance)<
Not true. Walsh did not work to "revoke" anything. He does however, think that the Polar folks should be represented in the GCAP while they are still a separate pilot group from the Atlas boys. Considering DHL's ownership is in Polar, not Atlas, and for the moment there is still a Polar pilot group, it makes sense to do this. At the time of that hornswaggle, the 1224 was in charge of GCAP. For reasons that I won't go into they aren't now, and one of our guys at Astar is.
>The same Pat Walsh who joined the Prater/Helling/York/Luby bandwagon and called Dave Bourne a “scab” a “mobster” and a “union raider.” Whom, when I challenged him about his comments at the May ALPA Executive Board, said he was “just repeating what he had heard from higher ups at ALPA.” Real class act.<
Not totally accurate. He did say Bourne was a union raider. Which considering he made a run for the ALPA Presidency and lost, then went to Teamsters and got a job from them running the airline division, seems a pretty fair charge. He didn't say that Bourne was a "mobster" or a "scab". Also, never stated to anyone at the EB that he was "just repeating what he had heard from higher ups at ALPA". What's really classy is editing a letter and posting it without giving them an opportunity to defend themselves.
>You were made aware of Bob Henderson’s comments in January 2007 in Miami when he said in my presence and others that he wanted Polar to be owned by ASTAR so they would not be “scabs” like Atlas was to them or ABX was to you. You’ve said nothing to refute this.<
Interesting. What precisely would anyone expect the Astar MEC to say when he/they were not at this meeting in MIA? Go off on hearsay? Pretty foolish to do that, I'd say. Since no part of your author's other claims as to what Pat said is correct, why would anyone take that as truth?
>DHL had just been forced to suffer through a week of no flying by ASTAR because the weather was below their minimums.<
And this would have anything to do with the topic? Incredibly childish. Further, DHL makes the call on what a/c are operated in their system. Hurray for us though, we've been certified CATII. Finally. DHL had till last year refused to either upgrade our fleets, or pay for CATII certification. We've lectured them about the need for it for years. The weather being referred to had ducks walking for 3 days. This included CATII and most of the time, CATIII capable a/c as well. To whine about something like that shows "no class".
>Given the train wreck that has occurred during Pat’s tenure and that of his predecessor, it would be better to ask their last real MEC Chairman Dan Brannan, to comment.<
Having worked for every MEC that has been on Astar property, I can say that Dan had his good points and his bad points, as does everyone. Dave and Dan had a political alliance. That is why they were best buddies, and formed their own Mutual Admiration Society. The goals they had for themselves didn't work out. I'll let you read into that what you will. If you are really as "involved" as you say, you know exactly what I'm talking about. As to train wrecks, in my opinion there is nothing anyone can/could do to right the ship of DHL. It's like Emery turning in their certificate. If someone ceases to operate, it's game over.
I'll be signing off on this topic now. Engaging any Atlas/Polar thread is like messing with the Tar Baby. The only reason I got on this is for whatever bizarre reason, you decided to try to drag Astar into your Whirlpool of Doom.
>Having been present for a fair chunk of what was commented on by the author makes me question how much you work with Capt Walsh and in what capacity.<
I'd say you weren't there. We don't have a dog in your fight, therefore I'm not wasting a lot of my time to duel here. However:
>I’d like to point out that this is the same Pat Walsh who not only worked feverishly to revoke our access and membership in favor of Polar’s in GCAP (the Global Cargo Pilots Alliance)<
Not true. Walsh did not work to "revoke" anything. He does however, think that the Polar folks should be represented in the GCAP while they are still a separate pilot group from the Atlas boys. Considering DHL's ownership is in Polar, not Atlas, and for the moment there is still a Polar pilot group, it makes sense to do this. At the time of that hornswaggle, the 1224 was in charge of GCAP. For reasons that I won't go into they aren't now, and one of our guys at Astar is.
>The same Pat Walsh who joined the Prater/Helling/York/Luby bandwagon and called Dave Bourne a “scab” a “mobster” and a “union raider.” Whom, when I challenged him about his comments at the May ALPA Executive Board, said he was “just repeating what he had heard from higher ups at ALPA.” Real class act.<
Not totally accurate. He did say Bourne was a union raider. Which considering he made a run for the ALPA Presidency and lost, then went to Teamsters and got a job from them running the airline division, seems a pretty fair charge. He didn't say that Bourne was a "mobster" or a "scab". Also, never stated to anyone at the EB that he was "just repeating what he had heard from higher ups at ALPA". What's really classy is editing a letter and posting it without giving them an opportunity to defend themselves.
>You were made aware of Bob Henderson’s comments in January 2007 in Miami when he said in my presence and others that he wanted Polar to be owned by ASTAR so they would not be “scabs” like Atlas was to them or ABX was to you. You’ve said nothing to refute this.<
Interesting. What precisely would anyone expect the Astar MEC to say when he/they were not at this meeting in MIA? Go off on hearsay? Pretty foolish to do that, I'd say. Since no part of your author's other claims as to what Pat said is correct, why would anyone take that as truth?
>DHL had just been forced to suffer through a week of no flying by ASTAR because the weather was below their minimums.<
And this would have anything to do with the topic? Incredibly childish. Further, DHL makes the call on what a/c are operated in their system. Hurray for us though, we've been certified CATII. Finally. DHL had till last year refused to either upgrade our fleets, or pay for CATII certification. We've lectured them about the need for it for years. The weather being referred to had ducks walking for 3 days. This included CATII and most of the time, CATIII capable a/c as well. To whine about something like that shows "no class".
>Given the train wreck that has occurred during Pat’s tenure and that of his predecessor, it would be better to ask their last real MEC Chairman Dan Brannan, to comment.<
Having worked for every MEC that has been on Astar property, I can say that Dan had his good points and his bad points, as does everyone. Dave and Dan had a political alliance. That is why they were best buddies, and formed their own Mutual Admiration Society. The goals they had for themselves didn't work out. I'll let you read into that what you will. If you are really as "involved" as you say, you know exactly what I'm talking about. As to train wrecks, in my opinion there is nothing anyone can/could do to right the ship of DHL. It's like Emery turning in their certificate. If someone ceases to operate, it's game over.
I'll be signing off on this topic now. Engaging any Atlas/Polar thread is like messing with the Tar Baby. The only reason I got on this is for whatever bizarre reason, you decided to try to drag Astar into your Whirlpool of Doom.
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Not true. Walsh did not work to "revoke" anything. He does however, think that the Polar folks should be represented in the GCAP while they are still a separate pilot group from the Atlas boys. Considering DHL's ownership is in Polar, not Atlas, and for the moment there is still a Polar pilot group, it makes sense to do this. At the time of that hornswaggle, the 1224 was in charge of GCAP. For reasons that I won't go into they aren't now, and one of our guys at Astar is.
Not totally accurate. He did say Bourne was a union raider. Which considering he made a run for the ALPA Presidency and lost, then went to Teamsters and got a job from them running the airline division, seems a pretty fair charge. He didn't say that Bourne was a "mobster" or a "scab". Also, never stated to anyone at the EB that he was "just repeating what he had heard from higher ups at ALPA". What's really classy is editing a letter and posting it without giving them an opportunity to defend themselves.
You claim inside information yet the above two statements indicate how clueless you really are.
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 5th Dec 2008 at 16:24.
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And that's why I don't get in these threads BD. I make a simple statement about why Pat thought Polar guys should be invited, and you twist it around to me blaming it on Atlas guys. Sweet.
I'm far from clueless, and I threw the BS flag first. Go find your own. Hvy, out.
I'm far from clueless, and I threw the BS flag first. Go find your own. Hvy, out.
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Nitty-Gritty,
I am not going to lower myself to respond to all of the personal attacks from an anonymous source. But for the record, I like Dave Bourne and I know that IBT is lucky to have him. I have never called him or any Atlas pilots scabs. Nor have I ever condoned Atlas pilots being called that. By the way, I was not even at the meeting in January of 2007 that is mentioned in the email.
It is true that the Atlas pilots were the first ALPA pilots to conduct a sympathy strike. That is something your pilot group should be proud of. By the way I was silent at that time because I held no position in the union at that time.
I only wrote the letter to the Atlas pilots because ALPA has served our pilot group well though some very challenging times. IBT is also a good union. As I said, only the Atlas pilots can decide which union is best for your group. Good luck.
And regardless of which union wins the election, the Astar ALPA pilots will support the Atlas pilots’ fight for a fair contract.
In Solidarity,
Pat Walsh
I am not going to lower myself to respond to all of the personal attacks from an anonymous source. But for the record, I like Dave Bourne and I know that IBT is lucky to have him. I have never called him or any Atlas pilots scabs. Nor have I ever condoned Atlas pilots being called that. By the way, I was not even at the meeting in January of 2007 that is mentioned in the email.
It is true that the Atlas pilots were the first ALPA pilots to conduct a sympathy strike. That is something your pilot group should be proud of. By the way I was silent at that time because I held no position in the union at that time.
I only wrote the letter to the Atlas pilots because ALPA has served our pilot group well though some very challenging times. IBT is also a good union. As I said, only the Atlas pilots can decide which union is best for your group. Good luck.
And regardless of which union wins the election, the Astar ALPA pilots will support the Atlas pilots’ fight for a fair contract.
In Solidarity,
Pat Walsh
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IBT
Here is what Great Lakes Aviation thinks of the IBT:
Fellow Pilots:
The pilots of Great Lakes Aviation are taking the first steps of a long journey towards a better life, and the beginning of the end for the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 747 as our bargaining agent.
As a newly formed Organizing Committee, your peers have prepared an Application to the National Mediation Board for the Investigation of a Representation Dispute. This document, when paired with authorization cards from a majority of the pilot group, will inform the NMB that there is a dispute regarding our representation with the Teamsters. The lack of support from Local 747 will no longer be tolerated. Our bargaining agent is tasked with a number of administrative duties, and these have been consistently mishandled. The four Executive Committee Chairpersons serving over the last five years have experienced this demoralizing situation firsthand. They have grappled with the Local 747 leadership yet see depressingly little movement on the simplest of issues. As a small pilot group we face a myriad of daunting obstacles. Our bargaining agent should not be one of those obstacles. As for our future representation, the committee is exploring potential options.
In order to determine that a labor dispute exists more than 50% of the pilot group must submit authorization cards for the matter to proceed. These cards are a formal way of petitioning for a representational election. Once at least half the pilots have spoken, the cards will be submitted to the NMB. The NMB will then declare that a dispute exists and hold that representational election, via secret ballot, wherein we will choose our next union. Take careful note, this is a two-step process. Every pilot desiring change must in essence “vote” twice, once via an authorization card to signal a dispute, and again during the election to select our new representation. In the coming days and weeks, ensure that you personally submit a card to a member of the Organizing Committee. We will be in the crew rooms and on the line, asking for your authorization and functioning as walking ballot boxes. Future updates will be forthcoming. To stay informed, get on the mailing list by sending your full name to [email protected].
On a cautionary note, let us remember that the union is us. We cannot buy representation. What we often refer to as “the union” is merely a legal framework. When something actually gets done, whether it is the ability to jumpseat in the cockpit, the recent scheduling letter of agreement, a better hotel, or longer segment times, it is because a pilot went out and did it. The logo on our flight bag stickers, though it must change, matters only so much. The overthrow of Local 747 is a specific solution to a specific problem, yet not a magic bullet. Once the dust settles after our victory, a bigger, longer battle with the company awaits us. Under new representation we will emerge with our fangs out, ready for the fight. As a united pilot group we must act for change now.
Respectfully,
The Organizing Committee:
Fellow Pilots:
The pilots of Great Lakes Aviation are taking the first steps of a long journey towards a better life, and the beginning of the end for the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 747 as our bargaining agent.
As a newly formed Organizing Committee, your peers have prepared an Application to the National Mediation Board for the Investigation of a Representation Dispute. This document, when paired with authorization cards from a majority of the pilot group, will inform the NMB that there is a dispute regarding our representation with the Teamsters. The lack of support from Local 747 will no longer be tolerated. Our bargaining agent is tasked with a number of administrative duties, and these have been consistently mishandled. The four Executive Committee Chairpersons serving over the last five years have experienced this demoralizing situation firsthand. They have grappled with the Local 747 leadership yet see depressingly little movement on the simplest of issues. As a small pilot group we face a myriad of daunting obstacles. Our bargaining agent should not be one of those obstacles. As for our future representation, the committee is exploring potential options.
In order to determine that a labor dispute exists more than 50% of the pilot group must submit authorization cards for the matter to proceed. These cards are a formal way of petitioning for a representational election. Once at least half the pilots have spoken, the cards will be submitted to the NMB. The NMB will then declare that a dispute exists and hold that representational election, via secret ballot, wherein we will choose our next union. Take careful note, this is a two-step process. Every pilot desiring change must in essence “vote” twice, once via an authorization card to signal a dispute, and again during the election to select our new representation. In the coming days and weeks, ensure that you personally submit a card to a member of the Organizing Committee. We will be in the crew rooms and on the line, asking for your authorization and functioning as walking ballot boxes. Future updates will be forthcoming. To stay informed, get on the mailing list by sending your full name to [email protected].
On a cautionary note, let us remember that the union is us. We cannot buy representation. What we often refer to as “the union” is merely a legal framework. When something actually gets done, whether it is the ability to jumpseat in the cockpit, the recent scheduling letter of agreement, a better hotel, or longer segment times, it is because a pilot went out and did it. The logo on our flight bag stickers, though it must change, matters only so much. The overthrow of Local 747 is a specific solution to a specific problem, yet not a magic bullet. Once the dust settles after our victory, a bigger, longer battle with the company awaits us. Under new representation we will emerge with our fangs out, ready for the fight. As a united pilot group we must act for change now.
Respectfully,
The Organizing Committee:
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Great Lakes
I am not in contact with Great Lakes MEC and my ESP has failed but what I will endeavor to do is to inform them of our history with ALPA so that they can make an informed decision.
MOVING ON.....
PS How is HTZA?
MOVING ON.....
PS How is HTZA?
Last edited by atlast; 9th Dec 2008 at 13:33. Reason: Missed the PS first time around
Furlough
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Do they get to vote? I'm sure that the guys affected by the furlough voted within minutes of getting the voting instructions and it wasn't for ALPA from what we are hearing out on the line.
Also, a furlough status retains the right to vote.
DBW
Also, a furlough status retains the right to vote.
DBW
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My understanding is 24, but they are not effective yet again as far as I know.
It has been put out that the entire thing is still under review and I would expect that they will know more after the 1st of the year when the Military flying is better known for the classics.
DBW
It has been put out that the entire thing is still under review and I would expect that they will know more after the 1st of the year when the Military flying is better known for the classics.
DBW
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Any Rumor's going around as to how many pilots could hit the street?
Also, the word on the street from some Polar guys is that the Merger won't happen now, is that still possible after what the NMB said with the single carrier??
Thanks
Also, the word on the street from some Polar guys is that the Merger won't happen now, is that still possible after what the NMB said with the single carrier??
Thanks