Will Atlas actions effect Polar as well?
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I'm not so simple to believe that our groups would fall in love, but it is very simple that we would be better off together than being used against each other. We do need to put the hate to the side and work on collective future for the better of both groups. So we both can start getting ahead with our financial futures. Part of why I like the push to Teamsters. Circumvents the currently established ALPA hate climate among both carrier group MECs and National's favoritism and will get it done. Funny how ALPA only got interested in the long going (@2yrs+) Atlas/Polar merger again during the Prater Administration after the Atlas for Teamsters movement while at the same time ALPA National puts others carriers on the fast track day one without so much as a seniority agreement (NWA/DL for example).
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Has anyone approached the Polar MEC about moving to the Teamsters? I doubt it. If Bourne would have stayed with Atlas and then proposed the Atlas moved, it sure would have looked better than moving to the Teamsters. The former MEC's cozy relationship with the AAWH management is well known. No wonder the Polaroids smell a fish. I could be wrong but still....the thought is still there.
Bottom line though, is the two groups better get together because, no matter what the mindset, the slugs at AAWH would shut the operation down in a minute if they thought it was in their interest. If you think they really cared about the you, you are sorely mistaken. They worry about one thing, how to squeeze the company dry then walk away. One a joint effort can fight these lowlifes. You better start talking to each other or you will perish.
Bottom line though, is the two groups better get together because, no matter what the mindset, the slugs at AAWH would shut the operation down in a minute if they thought it was in their interest. If you think they really cared about the you, you are sorely mistaken. They worry about one thing, how to squeeze the company dry then walk away. One a joint effort can fight these lowlifes. You better start talking to each other or you will perish.
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The former MEC's cozy relationship with the AAWH management is well known.
Just because someones style of negotiation is not the fist pounding, adversarial, take the company down in flames style that the Polar MEC is well known for, does not mean they are cozy with management. Interest based negotiations is finding those areas of an issue where both parties have common goals and interests and negotiating from there. I am sure that the Polar MEC sees this as kissing up to management but from our perspective, it seems to be working. That is what negotiations is after all. Give and take, compromise. In this economy and this day and age, the old styles of intimidation will not work. There is just too much competition out there willing to take our jobs for $50/day. We have to be reasonable and at least make an attempt to find common ground.
the slugs at AAWH would shut the operation down in a minute if they thought it was in their interest.
If you think they really cared about the you, you are sorely mistaken.
They worry about one thing, how to squeeze the company dry then walk away.
One a joint effort can fight these lowlifes.
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I'm sorry Beaver but I just cannot see it that way. While the goals may be lofty, the fact is management is not your friend. How many times has your contract been violated? If they were so honorable, then I would agree with your premise; but the fact is that they constantly violate your CBA just as they did ours. There should never be a need for the grievance process. You can suck it up and let them get away with murder while you work toward a better agreement, which will never happen, or you can stand up to them and use the only tactic available to force them to actually bargain in good faith, which they never will. True, no one wants to force an airline to closure and loose a paycheck, but to let fear of loss of pay affect your judgement is just plain wrong. The company does not want that either so there some leverage.
We have two different groups, one who was bought by the company, who decided to ignore the CBA that went with the purchase, and another group that sees it as trying to take their jobs. The Poloroids feel the Atlas group and circumventing their jobs by using Polar as an ACMI customer. What the truth is can only be worked out by the respective parties to sit down and actually work toward a common goal of fighting management forcing them to honor the respective CBA's. Then collectively work toward a new combined contract that prtoects everyone's job. The collectively force them to honor the CBA. Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!
We have two different groups, one who was bought by the company, who decided to ignore the CBA that went with the purchase, and another group that sees it as trying to take their jobs. The Poloroids feel the Atlas group and circumventing their jobs by using Polar as an ACMI customer. What the truth is can only be worked out by the respective parties to sit down and actually work toward a common goal of fighting management forcing them to honor the respective CBA's. Then collectively work toward a new combined contract that prtoects everyone's job. The collectively force them to honor the CBA. Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!
Last edited by trashhauler; 23rd Jun 2008 at 14:27. Reason: spelling
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Why do you still care Trash?
In any case, both will be Teamsters soon enough, and Bobbbb will have to go back to the line
trashhauler: <<Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!>>
In any case, both will be Teamsters soon enough, and Bobbbb will have to go back to the line
trashhauler: <<Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!>>
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Cozy Relationships
I have to agree with "Beaver Driver". I have confidence in our Bourne and our MEC in general. If the Management/Union relationship works, and if "cozy" can lead to "letters-of-agreement", then COZY-UP!. Sure, they are arch-enemies, and both are working toward opposite extremes, "Lower crew costs versus higher compensation". That said, if the two can hammer out a mutually beneficial agreement, so be it. When it cost the company, I know, and we all know, COZY ain't gonna do ****. That's when we get militant, why before?.
I also know I'm gonna get my arse chewed here soon enough, about grievances, management's lies, ect. Probably all true. The time to fix those is during contract negotiating. It ain't gonna get fixed sooner.
I also know I'm gonna get my arse chewed here soon enough, about grievances, management's lies, ect. Probably all true. The time to fix those is during contract negotiating. It ain't gonna get fixed sooner.
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To H; I still have a lot of good friends there and although I've traded blue for brown, I still care.
As for First Step, you make a lot of good points, but if the company has not honored your contract now, and there is no stand taken, how do expect them to honor any future agreements?
If you think I have a dim view of management you are right. I have sat through too many grievance hearings at TWA. I've seen too many management shenanigans to look at things any other way. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
As for First Step, you make a lot of good points, but if the company has not honored your contract now, and there is no stand taken, how do expect them to honor any future agreements?
If you think I have a dim view of management you are right. I have sat through too many grievance hearings at TWA. I've seen too many management shenanigans to look at things any other way. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
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"In any case, both will be Teamsters soon enough, and Bobbbb will have to go back to the line"
I think the way Bobb looks at it is he gets to go back to the line. How can flying not be a whole lot better that wading through this swamp?
I think the way Bobb looks at it is he gets to go back to the line. How can flying not be a whole lot better that wading through this swamp?
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No not really. I just have some questions about the whole thing.
It appears that quite a few who post on here have no real interest in Polar any more. So why continue to fan the flames? Quite a few others have never even met the Atlas MEC or heard anything about what that MEC is doing other than from Mr. Hendersen and his supporters. Wouldn't it be smart to find out for yourselves? I am just wondering how a person can accuse the Atlas MEC of such a thing without no real knowledge to back it up.
In the same post the gentleman, who is not even at Polar anymore, said many argumentative things that could conversely be applied to the Polar pilot group and the way they treat management.
For instance, I heard that when Mr. Flynn first arrived on scene, he held a meet and greet get together for both MECs and himself. The Polar group showed up in their uniforms (that they hadn't worn in years) and when it was Hendersen's turn to talk, instead of greeting the new CEO, he began a diatribe about the various grievances and problems the Polar council had with the company. I just think that the Atlas MEC's approach may have been better. "Welcome to Atlas Mr. Flynn. We look forward to working with you. You can call me any time if you have questions or problems." I know that there is a lot of animosity towards Mr. Cato from the Polar MEC. Most of it is probably justified. But Mr. Flynn just got there. This is but one example of the kind of adversarial relationship that the Polar MEC fosters with Atlas management. I guess I would rather have the type of relationship with management that retains the ability to communicate.
And I am a lot of fun to fly with - and I look forward to having you in my cockpit.
It appears that quite a few who post on here have no real interest in Polar any more. So why continue to fan the flames? Quite a few others have never even met the Atlas MEC or heard anything about what that MEC is doing other than from Mr. Hendersen and his supporters. Wouldn't it be smart to find out for yourselves? I am just wondering how a person can accuse the Atlas MEC of such a thing without no real knowledge to back it up.
In the same post the gentleman, who is not even at Polar anymore, said many argumentative things that could conversely be applied to the Polar pilot group and the way they treat management.
For instance, I heard that when Mr. Flynn first arrived on scene, he held a meet and greet get together for both MECs and himself. The Polar group showed up in their uniforms (that they hadn't worn in years) and when it was Hendersen's turn to talk, instead of greeting the new CEO, he began a diatribe about the various grievances and problems the Polar council had with the company. I just think that the Atlas MEC's approach may have been better. "Welcome to Atlas Mr. Flynn. We look forward to working with you. You can call me any time if you have questions or problems." I know that there is a lot of animosity towards Mr. Cato from the Polar MEC. Most of it is probably justified. But Mr. Flynn just got there. This is but one example of the kind of adversarial relationship that the Polar MEC fosters with Atlas management. I guess I would rather have the type of relationship with management that retains the ability to communicate.
And I am a lot of fun to fly with - and I look forward to having you in my cockpit.
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 24th Jun 2008 at 01:15.
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As long as I am on furlough, I am still part pf Polar and I do care. Will my position ever come back, probably not, but I still care and when I see the adhominum attacks against people I consider a friend, of course I will respond.
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I thought you took the money and ran, offered to some of the Polar FE's. You still have recall rights after that? I'm not really up to date on that one, but I remember Heilhaavir mentioning it at one time about you.
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Low,
I assume you meant ad hominem, which means to attack the man not the problem. I have been reading this forum for a long time under one name or another, and have not seen too many posts attacking Mr. Henderson personally. However, his behavior and the issues he has created are, by virtue of his office, open to criticism; especially when the proof is open for all to read in the remedies suggested in the various grievances he has filed.
Unlike the Polar guys who have, in the past, insisted on calling the Atlas Vice Chair names, accusing the Atlas MEC chair of colluding with the company with no proof, calling others scabs with no proof, and generally focusing on people instead of issues. Most of the time when that type of ad hominem attack happens it is because the attacker has no real argument or case. The words you used are nice and prove you are intelligent I guess. But in your case they are totally inappropriate.
As others have said, including some Polar guys IIRC, it would probably be better if you let it go. Quit stirring the pot. Focus on your job at FedEx. The Polar guys that are left have this one well in hand. It is probably time to quit pontificating on your new companies dime and, As someone else said, move on.
I assume you meant ad hominem, which means to attack the man not the problem. I have been reading this forum for a long time under one name or another, and have not seen too many posts attacking Mr. Henderson personally. However, his behavior and the issues he has created are, by virtue of his office, open to criticism; especially when the proof is open for all to read in the remedies suggested in the various grievances he has filed.
Unlike the Polar guys who have, in the past, insisted on calling the Atlas Vice Chair names, accusing the Atlas MEC chair of colluding with the company with no proof, calling others scabs with no proof, and generally focusing on people instead of issues. Most of the time when that type of ad hominem attack happens it is because the attacker has no real argument or case. The words you used are nice and prove you are intelligent I guess. But in your case they are totally inappropriate.
As others have said, including some Polar guys IIRC, it would probably be better if you let it go. Quit stirring the pot. Focus on your job at FedEx. The Polar guys that are left have this one well in hand. It is probably time to quit pontificating on your new companies dime and, As someone else said, move on.
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Miami Freight<<I think the way Bobb looks at it is he gets to go back to the line. How can flying not be a whole lot better that wading through this swamp?>>
Does he not know how to delegate?
I think that 100hr guaranty to make a few phone calls, write what others have prepared for him, and do what a few men of law tell him to do, is a pretty good deal in itself. He can't be THAT busy EVERYDAY...
Does he not know how to delegate?
I think that 100hr guaranty to make a few phone calls, write what others have prepared for him, and do what a few men of law tell him to do, is a pretty good deal in itself. He can't be THAT busy EVERYDAY...
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this is exactly what management wants. divide each group, so even if you merge them, both will be so bitter that working together against management will probably never happen. you need to put aside your differences and realize labor always needs to support labor
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I think the last batch of responses was some Polar infighting rather than the usual Atlas/Polar fighting.
Rightfully so with the facts at hand and in reality.... Something that has been in absence on one side of this equation for some time.
Now, lets get back to Atlas crew bashing vs reality and unifying...
Rightfully so with the facts at hand and in reality.... Something that has been in absence on one side of this equation for some time.
Now, lets get back to Atlas crew bashing vs reality and unifying...
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Does he not know how to delegate? I think that 100hr guaranty to make a few phone calls, write what others have prepared for him, and do what a few men of law tell him to do, is a pretty good deal in itself. He can't be THAT busy EVERYDAY...
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H, unfortunately there are not a lot of volunteers to take on the task of fighting grievances,etc. We miss that loyal support that you used to provide. BTW, how's that Captains seat at Focus working out for you?
Heilhaavir is offline Report Post Reply
H, unfortunately there are not a lot of volunteers to take on the task of fighting grievances,etc. We miss that loyal support that you used to provide. BTW, how's that Captains seat at Focus working out for you?