Janes Aviation Ltd
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: manchester
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So sorry to read that but thank you for the update. The 748 was a venerable workhorse that outlived the competition .Full marks to those involved in keeping her flying for so long.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spoke with a lady from the Isle of Man recently.
She said after Emerald let the Island down by terminating services there was no way the people of the Isle of Man would have them back - the new service was boycotted.
A shame it all ended like this - no matter what the reason it seems there was never any chance of success.
RIP
FOK
She said after Emerald let the Island down by terminating services there was no way the people of the Isle of Man would have them back - the new service was boycotted.
A shame it all ended like this - no matter what the reason it seems there was never any chance of success.
RIP
FOK
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: manchester
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is rather typical of the attitude of some of the natives of the island .I recall in my time with Manx Airlines that these minority but nonetheless vocal tribe seemed to consider that Manx Airlines was actually owned and therefore deemed to be the servant of the residents.!! Nothing could have been further from the truth, yet history repeated itself when Emerald Airways provided freight and then passenger services ,initially the competition brought down the price to the benefit of the islanders but economics of scale meant that the best intentions of Emerald could simply not continue, basically it had to have payback and make a profit on the route as a private operator,it was not after all an extension of the Island social services with unlimited funding.
The freight operation soldiered on providing a lifeline to the island in all weather conditions ,particularly so in adverse weather conditions when the ferry operations had to be suspended.The islanders seemed to appreciate the crews efforts then.
In the final analysis Emerald Airways cessation of providing this essential service was outside of their control ,and regretfully for all concerned removed a vital lifeline to the island ,a fact not lost on Andy Janes who made it his mission to eventually bounce back and reinvest in a new Airline to once again provide this user friendly service to his old customers,sadly ,and despite his solid belief and personal investment in this project ,the reality was stonewalled by the very people that he was providing and underwriting the service for.
History repeats itself,over the many years of Manx aviation history many airlines have hit the buffers endeavouring to provide a service to the island and this is the acid test because as private ventures they have to make a profit to continue and yet some Manx people seem to hold the view that they have a god given right to an air service at the lowest cost'
My advice to these individuals is to wake up and smell the coffee,no commercial Operator is going to provide a locost service unless the Manx taxpayers are prepared to underwrite it ,and as this is unlikely then they have to bite the bullet and pay the going rate.It is a quite simple reality check,some may have escaped to a small Island in the Irish Sea but the real world actually does continue to exist beyond the Manx horizon.
The freight operation soldiered on providing a lifeline to the island in all weather conditions ,particularly so in adverse weather conditions when the ferry operations had to be suspended.The islanders seemed to appreciate the crews efforts then.
In the final analysis Emerald Airways cessation of providing this essential service was outside of their control ,and regretfully for all concerned removed a vital lifeline to the island ,a fact not lost on Andy Janes who made it his mission to eventually bounce back and reinvest in a new Airline to once again provide this user friendly service to his old customers,sadly ,and despite his solid belief and personal investment in this project ,the reality was stonewalled by the very people that he was providing and underwriting the service for.
History repeats itself,over the many years of Manx aviation history many airlines have hit the buffers endeavouring to provide a service to the island and this is the acid test because as private ventures they have to make a profit to continue and yet some Manx people seem to hold the view that they have a god given right to an air service at the lowest cost'
My advice to these individuals is to wake up and smell the coffee,no commercial Operator is going to provide a locost service unless the Manx taxpayers are prepared to underwrite it ,and as this is unlikely then they have to bite the bullet and pay the going rate.It is a quite simple reality check,some may have escaped to a small Island in the Irish Sea but the real world actually does continue to exist beyond the Manx horizon.
Bring back the Dak!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now re-read that last post and substitute Jersey and Guernsey for the IOM. Same mindset. EVERYBODY knew when the papers were late, and the name of the accursed airline. I used to live there, and am well-familiar with it. Not once an appreciation of the often-tremendous efforts to provide a service. (And as for the States' historical treatment of the only large indigenous airline of some 30 years ago, well!!!!!! Invite the Sicilians up and show them how to REALLY run an island!).
I even found myself doing it for a short period with jet equipment.........after a short while we dropped it as being a no-win poisoned chalice, and went off to do far more rewarding things. The Island mindset often chooses to try and ignore the bigger picture, and its vital influence on their very cosseted existence, and people and organisations suffer as a consequence.
I even found myself doing it for a short period with jet equipment.........after a short while we dropped it as being a no-win poisoned chalice, and went off to do far more rewarding things. The Island mindset often chooses to try and ignore the bigger picture, and its vital influence on their very cosseted existence, and people and organisations suffer as a consequence.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The major problem with that is that the customer is always right. They might be deluded or daft, but without them you are stuffed.
I don't understand the obsession with the IoM, in reality the conditions both in weather and economic terms aren't exactly conducive to having a long term healthy service.
If the no-frills mobs aren't interested in running services there, there's probably a reason for it.
Why Emerald kept persisting with a service that was a noose around their neck I'll never know, but most of the management decisions left me confused on a daily basis anyway.
I don't understand the obsession with the IoM, in reality the conditions both in weather and economic terms aren't exactly conducive to having a long term healthy service.
If the no-frills mobs aren't interested in running services there, there's probably a reason for it.
Why Emerald kept persisting with a service that was a noose around their neck I'll never know, but most of the management decisions left me confused on a daily basis anyway.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason the 'no-frills' boys don't fly there is because the runway is a bit too short for a B737 (or so I have been told - I remember asking the question once, but I must say I never checked the performance data mainly because there wasn't any, which I suppose is the answer to the question?!).
Embraer 145 I think I am right in saying is about the largest civil jet you can get in - apart of course from the venerable 146.
This does not auger well for the future when the turboprops are no more and the 146 has been retired - having said that the Dash 8 is providing the service at the moment and no doubt will do for a number of years to come.
Anyone know if the Embraer 170/190 has the performance to get in and out?
FOK
Embraer 145 I think I am right in saying is about the largest civil jet you can get in - apart of course from the venerable 146.
This does not auger well for the future when the turboprops are no more and the 146 has been retired - having said that the Dash 8 is providing the service at the moment and no doubt will do for a number of years to come.
Anyone know if the Embraer 170/190 has the performance to get in and out?
FOK
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hasn't the runway been lengthened at Ronaldsway, or was that in my imagination?
Still, at 1700 odd metres, it is a bit short for the 73.
Still, at 1700 odd metres, it is a bit short for the 73.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 7th Jun 2009 at 18:12.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the risk of being shot down in flames FROM MEMORY I think the shortest runways used by B737s are approximately 1800 metres - 17/35 at Aldergrove (at 1891m) for example which, as far as easyJet SOPs are concerned, is the limit.
Runway 26 at the IOM is 1754m LDA, which must just fall under the minimum. I'm sure this is correct although I no longer have the figures to prove it.
If the runway has been extended my only comment is that they should have paid a bit more and added those few extra (economically) crucial metres.
FOK
Runway 26 at the IOM is 1754m LDA, which must just fall under the minimum. I'm sure this is correct although I no longer have the figures to prove it.
If the runway has been extended my only comment is that they should have paid a bit more and added those few extra (economically) crucial metres.
FOK
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know for certain my, then, employer was operating B737-300's in/out of IOM as far back as circa 1991 for the hoteliers etc. to take their holidays at the end of season.
I cannot recall the destinations but would have been at least as far away as spain which would have been enough fuel for a circa 2.5 hour sector included in the TOW.
And if an A318 can get in and out of LCY then IOM would be a piece of cake
I cannot recall the destinations but would have been at least as far away as spain which would have been enough fuel for a circa 2.5 hour sector included in the TOW.
And if an A318 can get in and out of LCY then IOM would be a piece of cake
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just found this (unsubstantiated) data file on the web.
It shows a minimum LDA required for a B737-800 as 1,852 metres at sea level.
This sounds about right, as I stated before.
Having landed the B737-300 and NG series on an 1800 metre runway it certainly is not a 'piece of cake', particularly in bad weather and/or at night (40 flap, autobrake 3) and not something that is done as a matter of course.
I still think there would be limiting performance (or commercial considerations) for the B737 at the IOM.
FOK
It shows a minimum LDA required for a B737-800 as 1,852 metres at sea level.
This sounds about right, as I stated before.
Having landed the B737-300 and NG series on an 1800 metre runway it certainly is not a 'piece of cake', particularly in bad weather and/or at night (40 flap, autobrake 3) and not something that is done as a matter of course.
I still think there would be limiting performance (or commercial considerations) for the B737 at the IOM.
FOK
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Belfast city is about 1830m with lda's less than that and ryanair operate their -800's into there. Maybe your figures are at max landing weight?
Maybe Janes will move their ops office to Nairobi?!
Maybe Janes will move their ops office to Nairobi?!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: lancashire
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-bejd. Last I Heard About The Dear Old Girl Was That It Might Be Going To Lpl Old Airport As A Sort Of Gate Guard. They Were Trying To Get Her There With The Min Amount Of (further) Damage. I Believe There Is A Team Of Enthusiasts/spotters Who Would Like A Challenge. Dear Lord Have They Not Seen Her !!!!!!!!!!!
Good Luck
Good Luck
17/35 at Aldergrove (at 1891m) for example which, as far as easyJet SOPs are concerned, is the limit.
The 1799m would apply if the airfield is Code 3C (usually because the runway is less than 45m in width), whereby CAP168 restricts declared distances for TODA or ASDA (whichever is greater) to 1799m.
SEN is a case in point where its hoped for runway extension is planned to offer only 1799m ASDA, although the paved surface will be longer than this.
SEN is a case in point where its hoped for runway extension is planned to offer only 1799m ASDA, although the paved surface will be longer than this.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, you're right - the 1800m figure was the First Officer operating limit and perhaps coincidentally close to the minimum LDA required.
However, I still remember IOM was out of bounds for the B737. If they have operated out of Ronaldsway maybe it was at a reduced TOW? I wouldn't like to comment whether the limitation was an operational one or simply due to economics.
FOK
However, I still remember IOM was out of bounds for the B737. If they have operated out of Ronaldsway maybe it was at a reduced TOW? I wouldn't like to comment whether the limitation was an operational one or simply due to economics.
FOK