DHL/ATLAS/POLAR Connection?
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Oh come on now nitty! For years now you and your minions have touted the fact that ALPA national had about had it with the Polar MEC and how Bourne et al. was in their good graces. Now you say they're smoking Bobb's pipe? Outside of being a disgusting statement that should require an apology to Henderson, Hair, and the entire ALPA management, it flies in the face of all that has been written in this, and other forums.
It is obvious to me that your council has some serious explaining to your union on why they cannot seem to give what they promised. Blaming it on others will not fix anything since you figure nothing is wrong. Well, obviously it is. Assuming you're successful in moving to the Teamsters, what you would do when the first decision came down against you? Where would you run to next?
Believe it nor not, I would like to see a merger. I really would although it might not mean a return to of displaced crew members, on either side of the aisle. If the Polar side is demanding that their scope clause is honored and it is not then they have a gripe. However, if the Atlas side is right, they have a gripe. The bottom line is that not everyone is going to get every job back (that is the issue isn't it) and the sooner everyone steps back and takes a deep breath nothing will get resolved. The enemy here is the company, not the unions.
Here is a novel idea. Have everyone study each others scope clause. A little knowledge on where the other side stands can only benefit everyone. Gleaning from your previous posts, ALPA has cut off your fundings. Could it be that they felt the money would be better spent on what they consider the winning side. Remember, they are stewards of a lot of money from a lot of councils, not just yours and Polars. They have to assess how to use it wisely.
It isn't the best way to put it but let's hope that both sides win and AAWH loses.
It is obvious to me that your council has some serious explaining to your union on why they cannot seem to give what they promised. Blaming it on others will not fix anything since you figure nothing is wrong. Well, obviously it is. Assuming you're successful in moving to the Teamsters, what you would do when the first decision came down against you? Where would you run to next?
Believe it nor not, I would like to see a merger. I really would although it might not mean a return to of displaced crew members, on either side of the aisle. If the Polar side is demanding that their scope clause is honored and it is not then they have a gripe. However, if the Atlas side is right, they have a gripe. The bottom line is that not everyone is going to get every job back (that is the issue isn't it) and the sooner everyone steps back and takes a deep breath nothing will get resolved. The enemy here is the company, not the unions.
Here is a novel idea. Have everyone study each others scope clause. A little knowledge on where the other side stands can only benefit everyone. Gleaning from your previous posts, ALPA has cut off your fundings. Could it be that they felt the money would be better spent on what they consider the winning side. Remember, they are stewards of a lot of money from a lot of councils, not just yours and Polars. They have to assess how to use it wisely.
It isn't the best way to put it but let's hope that both sides win and AAWH loses.
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This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
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ALPA has cut off your fundings. Could it be that they felt the money would be better spent on what they consider the winning side. Remember, they are stewards of a lot of money from a lot of councils, not just yours and Polars. They have to assess how to use it wisely.
Mark - time to step away from the crack pipe.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 29th Apr 2008 at 02:39.
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Most Polar pilots that post on here are merely parroting what Bobbrobin tell them too.
Atleast you make us all laugh
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Lets see, US Air council 41 gets pulled and a trustee replaces them by ALPA order. Charges brought by Atlas MEC for the same things USAir council 41 did which are mirrored by Polar's MEC. ALPA now says that they can do anything they want if they are Polar in about a 180 degree turn from the council 41 decision of replacement by trustee. Gee, do you think that was politically generated?
Polar and the @170 member council recieves over twice (@ $900,000) and gets an outside attorney for their grievances which are filed to take flying and A/C from Atlas. Versus the funding of Atlas @700 member council gets which is less than half that of Polars. BTW Atlas funding was cut again just this week at Atlas and only regular staff attorneys that say everything costs to much to represent grievances. Even now ALPA is refusing to pay already agreed upon costs we spent on Polar's strike of about 1/4 mil. in expenses. You know, the one we went on in sympathy for Polar. The first sympathy strike in ALPA history cargo carrier to cargo carrier. The agreed upon amount by both sides (National and Atlas), but that was under a different more honorable President.
Since Atlas was not supporting the current president during his election, Atlas has suffered at Polar's gain at ALPA. You gotta love politics. It has so little to do with what is right.
It is pretty obvious. Since the change out in Presidents, Polar has been getting favored. That's not to say they were not taken care before that.
With the Teamsters, we have support. About 1.4 million that won't let the freight on the A/C let alone fly it. With ALPA, we have a sister airline more than willing to fly our A/C or cargo anywhere as proven in the past during our count-down to strike so many years ago. In as much asking for asking for relief to fly the struck work and A/C ahead of time. I won't even get into the flying and A/C they acquired during our negotiations prior to that they now claim as their own forever and always.
I don't even want to go into how NWA and Exective Administrator Helling (NWA) entering this covering themselves in this over the DHL flying. I'm sure they are covering themselves in this already. Just by his current actions.
What is the Atlas membership left with? We certainly can't count on ALPA or Polar to do the right thing. Let alone hold up to their promises.
Polar and the @170 member council recieves over twice (@ $900,000) and gets an outside attorney for their grievances which are filed to take flying and A/C from Atlas. Versus the funding of Atlas @700 member council gets which is less than half that of Polars. BTW Atlas funding was cut again just this week at Atlas and only regular staff attorneys that say everything costs to much to represent grievances. Even now ALPA is refusing to pay already agreed upon costs we spent on Polar's strike of about 1/4 mil. in expenses. You know, the one we went on in sympathy for Polar. The first sympathy strike in ALPA history cargo carrier to cargo carrier. The agreed upon amount by both sides (National and Atlas), but that was under a different more honorable President.
Since Atlas was not supporting the current president during his election, Atlas has suffered at Polar's gain at ALPA. You gotta love politics. It has so little to do with what is right.
It is pretty obvious. Since the change out in Presidents, Polar has been getting favored. That's not to say they were not taken care before that.
With the Teamsters, we have support. About 1.4 million that won't let the freight on the A/C let alone fly it. With ALPA, we have a sister airline more than willing to fly our A/C or cargo anywhere as proven in the past during our count-down to strike so many years ago. In as much asking for asking for relief to fly the struck work and A/C ahead of time. I won't even get into the flying and A/C they acquired during our negotiations prior to that they now claim as their own forever and always.
I don't even want to go into how NWA and Exective Administrator Helling (NWA) entering this covering themselves in this over the DHL flying. I'm sure they are covering themselves in this already. Just by his current actions.
What is the Atlas membership left with? We certainly can't count on ALPA or Polar to do the right thing. Let alone hold up to their promises.
http://atlasforteamsters.com
I've found their statements at atlas for teamsters factual to the behind the scenes system at ALPA. If your a legacy carrier or "scheduled" , your in good graces. If not, give us your dues and go away.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 29th Apr 2008 at 03:53.
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With ALPA, we have a sister airline more than willing to fly our A/C or cargo anywhere
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So your saying that Polar never flew Atlas A/C and routes prior to the Atlas strike countdown? Then later requested relief to fly even more Atlas A/C and routes prior to the strike release.
Kind of like "which came first the egg or the chicken." Doesn't really matter. Polar did it first hoping to keep the flying with their scope clause. Didn't work out that way in the end. Polar then yelled that Atlas were scabs if they didn't give it back plus all of the remaining flying when it was Polar's turn at negotiations and strike. ALPA National said BS to it when you called us scabs after we held a sympathy strike for Polar. Then here we are.
You need to sit back and think just what Polar did to help. I think it was "we'll monitor the loads from Purchase". Followed by a "we want relief from the struck work rules" about 20 minutes prior to the release for Atlas.
With friends like Polar and inaction by ALPA National, I can see why we are going Teamsters.
I don't expect an intelligent answer from you, looking at your previous posts. Just putting it out there for those at Polar that think for themselves.
Kind of like "which came first the egg or the chicken." Doesn't really matter. Polar did it first hoping to keep the flying with their scope clause. Didn't work out that way in the end. Polar then yelled that Atlas were scabs if they didn't give it back plus all of the remaining flying when it was Polar's turn at negotiations and strike. ALPA National said BS to it when you called us scabs after we held a sympathy strike for Polar. Then here we are.
You need to sit back and think just what Polar did to help. I think it was "we'll monitor the loads from Purchase". Followed by a "we want relief from the struck work rules" about 20 minutes prior to the release for Atlas.
With friends like Polar and inaction by ALPA National, I can see why we are going Teamsters.
I don't expect an intelligent answer from you, looking at your previous posts. Just putting it out there for those at Polar that think for themselves.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 29th Apr 2008 at 06:07.
Teamster
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I don't think you understand the grievance process there nitty. Just because you file a grievance doesn't mean that ALPA has to pay for the representation. When I worked grievance, there were times when we felt that the grievance was not valid. We informed the crew member that we would file the grievance and support it but he would have to provide his own attorney costs. An average cost was about $5000 per grievance. If he won, then he got the money reimbursed. Have you thought that maybe ALPA is having reservations over these ongoing grievances that you file that you always seem to lose?
I have a question. If you do go to the Teamsters; Is your present contract kept in force until a new one is negotiated (usually talking several years); what is your support percentage; how long will this process take place and finally; if and when a merger is completed, has anyone thought of how the representation will be handed between the two competing unions?
I do have one more question; has anyone in your union looked at what, if anything, your present council would benefit with any merger. I would hate to see a lot of good people get hoodwinked and jump off a cliff for some self-serving act of a few.
I have a question. If you do go to the Teamsters; Is your present contract kept in force until a new one is negotiated (usually talking several years); what is your support percentage; how long will this process take place and finally; if and when a merger is completed, has anyone thought of how the representation will be handed between the two competing unions?
I do have one more question; has anyone in your union looked at what, if anything, your present council would benefit with any merger. I would hate to see a lot of good people get hoodwinked and jump off a cliff for some self-serving act of a few.
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Very good joking response from you, nitty. You accused Polar of almost flying Atlas A/C. But Atlas really does fly Polar Freight and Contracts. GET OVER YOURSELF ! Good luck with the Hoffa Group .....
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I'll say just that. There was no Atlas/Polar connection other than we shared the same ALPA attorney back then. We met with your council in Everett Barber's offices and fully supported you then. When Fell put out that ill advised letter, we furiously jumped on it and had it voided within two days. We floated a recall petition against Fell for the letter. There are some, I believe, that use selective data to advance their causes or cover their missteps. Look at all the facts. You should have struck!!!
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Originally Posted by rob rilly
You accused Polar of almost flying Atlas A/C. But Atlas really does fly Polar Freight and Contracts. GET OVER YOURSELF ! Good luck with the Hoffa Group .....
Trash-
The current contract would be in force. It's at http://atlasforteamsters.com for a lot of the answers. Let alone under the NMB and RLA rules if you want to download that and go through it. I would suggest doing so as an independent check. More than likely, we will be considered under single carrier status such as the AWA-USAir situation I put up for download a page back in pdf.
As far as time lines, it would probably be quicker than the current merger - no merger BS PID fiasco at ALPA that is serving just a few and holding up any contract negotiations merged or not on either the Atlas or Polar side.
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I don't know myself. My answering would only be conjecture. Good question to ask though. They have an email address for questions at the site under Q's and A's. Judging from the responses I got so far and how long it took, they are probably funneling some of the hard questions through a lawyer. They seem to be posting a number of them over there.
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Joetommy
You hit upon a great idea...it would be very telling if ALL of the Atlas leadership would resign and assure its members that they will hold no place at your new union. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
Bourne (and Cato) have been hatching this plan for over a year. ALPA has been aware (as has Polar) and is remiss in not dealing with it. Central to the effort is the same cast of characters retaining their lifestyle. Their backdoor tactics have fallen flat at ALPA...they continue to work this Teamster angle hard with Cato and demonize the "uncooperative" Polar folks.
Big sales point will be negating the Merged Seniority List...
I sincerely hope that all of the Atlas crewmembers ask hard and thoughtful questions before going down the Teamster road and rewarding Bourne and Cato. They have been footing the bill for the benefit of a handful of political hacks long enough. In their hearts, they know its true.
You hit upon a great idea...it would be very telling if ALL of the Atlas leadership would resign and assure its members that they will hold no place at your new union. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
Bourne (and Cato) have been hatching this plan for over a year. ALPA has been aware (as has Polar) and is remiss in not dealing with it. Central to the effort is the same cast of characters retaining their lifestyle. Their backdoor tactics have fallen flat at ALPA...they continue to work this Teamster angle hard with Cato and demonize the "uncooperative" Polar folks.
Big sales point will be negating the Merged Seniority List...
I sincerely hope that all of the Atlas crewmembers ask hard and thoughtful questions before going down the Teamster road and rewarding Bourne and Cato. They have been footing the bill for the benefit of a handful of political hacks long enough. In their hearts, they know its true.
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You guys are so worried about the strike, this single carrier plan is about 10x worse in regards to union busting than anything in the past. For a union to work with a company to bust another union is incredible. I do not know how any pilot can feel that they are getting a fair representation if there is collusion between the company and union. Don't get me wrong, I understand that a union and company need to work together for a common goal, however, this is too much. I would hate to face the industry to explain this one, you may think jumpseating now can be uncomfortable, just wait. I hope that this is just a rumor, please someone deny it.
By the way, doesn't someone out there think its foolish to blame pilots for the routes they fly. I somewhat understand the argument that people feel that their are backroom deals going on but for the most part it is really out of anyones control. I hate that pilots are getting screwed out of career progression, however, does anyone across the aisle have anything to do with that? Maybe so, I would like to hear the argument on what should be done. Refuse the work? I haven't seen anyone do that.
Also, while I got the floor and before I get hammered, How come there is no clear discussion on why it is in Polar's and Atlas's best interest not to merge? How merging would be a detriment to both airlines overall. Or I tell you what, what is the benefit of merging when there is no clear scope protection in place? I'm sorry but it seems that the Atlas pilots do not have the same priority on scope and seniority as the Polar guys. I believe their are 3 different senority lists at Atlas being; Atlas pilots, FE's, and Stanstead. If there are more let me know? As far as scope, the whole Standstead affair should of never happened. Also, watch your back on this company out of Ireland, just another avenue to outsource.
Look, overall, I think everone should be working together towards something. Discussing the strike and Fell over and over does nothing. Maybe, we should be discussing all the altercations that seem to be happening between the two groups and how to stop it. When it comes to an airplane diverting because of a disagreement at 35,000 feet, we all will be sorry and embarrassed.
Back to the Springer show.....
By the way, doesn't someone out there think its foolish to blame pilots for the routes they fly. I somewhat understand the argument that people feel that their are backroom deals going on but for the most part it is really out of anyones control. I hate that pilots are getting screwed out of career progression, however, does anyone across the aisle have anything to do with that? Maybe so, I would like to hear the argument on what should be done. Refuse the work? I haven't seen anyone do that.
Also, while I got the floor and before I get hammered, How come there is no clear discussion on why it is in Polar's and Atlas's best interest not to merge? How merging would be a detriment to both airlines overall. Or I tell you what, what is the benefit of merging when there is no clear scope protection in place? I'm sorry but it seems that the Atlas pilots do not have the same priority on scope and seniority as the Polar guys. I believe their are 3 different senority lists at Atlas being; Atlas pilots, FE's, and Stanstead. If there are more let me know? As far as scope, the whole Standstead affair should of never happened. Also, watch your back on this company out of Ireland, just another avenue to outsource.
Look, overall, I think everone should be working together towards something. Discussing the strike and Fell over and over does nothing. Maybe, we should be discussing all the altercations that seem to be happening between the two groups and how to stop it. When it comes to an airplane diverting because of a disagreement at 35,000 feet, we all will be sorry and embarrassed.
Back to the Springer show.....
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Originally Posted by cptvac
I sincerely hope that all of the Atlas crewmembers ask hard and thoughtful questions before going down the Teamster road and rewarding Bourne and Cato. They have been footing the bill for the benefit of a handful of political hacks long enough. In their hearts, they know its true.
Your comments and opinion probably just reinforce Atlas going to Teamsters considering how well you have worked with Atlas crews in the past. If you don't like it, then it must be good for Atlas crews.
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Any Atlas crewmember that knows Dave Bourne and John Caputo, know that their agenda is Dave Bourne and John Caputo. Blaming Polar for their failures and "Working Together" with a management that can't even abide by the Atlas CBA, weak as it is, has got to be wearing thin with any thinking Atlas crewmember...
The immediate goal of just demonizing and getting rid of Polar (with a little help from Cato) hasn't worked out. Bourne/Caputos self-serving behavior has had NOTHING to do with representing the interests of Atlas crewmembers or labor in general.
Simplistic accusations and revisionist history are not going to be enough when Atlas crewmembers start asking the tough questions. Thats when the closed door meetings and promises of Daves "special" relationships at the Teamsters will start. It will be interesting to see how much faith the group will place in more of this backdoor nonsense.
The immediate goal of just demonizing and getting rid of Polar (with a little help from Cato) hasn't worked out. Bourne/Caputos self-serving behavior has had NOTHING to do with representing the interests of Atlas crewmembers or labor in general.
Simplistic accusations and revisionist history are not going to be enough when Atlas crewmembers start asking the tough questions. Thats when the closed door meetings and promises of Daves "special" relationships at the Teamsters will start. It will be interesting to see how much faith the group will place in more of this backdoor nonsense.
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It Sure Fits
CAPT "VACuous"
Definition:
Pronunciation:
\ˈva-kyə-wəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin vacuus
Date: circa 1660
1 : emptied of or lacking content
2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane <a vacuous mind> <a vacuous movie>
3 : devoid of serious occupation : idle
I always laugh when I see your posts as they always follow the above definition!
Definition:
Pronunciation:
\ˈva-kyə-wəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin vacuus
Date: circa 1660
1 : emptied of or lacking content
2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane <a vacuous mind> <a vacuous movie>
3 : devoid of serious occupation : idle
I always laugh when I see your posts as they always follow the above definition!
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Sorry, Couldn't resist the Vacuous poke; enough Fun, Move On!
Bourne ,Caputo and Low are about self sacrifice. They answer the phone 24/7 and go to bat. If you watched the video, Dave is taking an LOA which means a loss of longevity; that is going to bat. If we go to a different union and they get elected they'll be going back to the line if we want them to. Read the Dave Allen letter to Polar crewmembers regarding how we feel about blame. It's over, move on!
The only truth in your whole diatribe is the fact that we have a weak CBA. That's why we want a new one and have done since the last one reached it's expiration. We want to move on!
Getting rid of Polar is a ludicrous statement to accuse our MEC of. We put our jobs on the line to support you and your strike. That's over with, with absolutely no thanks, but let's move on!
Accusations of working with Cato to demonize and get rid of Polar are absolutely straight out of cloud cuckoo land. Please back that up or move on!
Atlas crewmembers are asking tough questions but it's not about our MEC it's about the total lack of support at ALPA national level and what we Atlas pilots can do about it. We...are moving on!
The only truth in your whole diatribe is the fact that we have a weak CBA. That's why we want a new one and have done since the last one reached it's expiration. We want to move on!
Getting rid of Polar is a ludicrous statement to accuse our MEC of. We put our jobs on the line to support you and your strike. That's over with, with absolutely no thanks, but let's move on!
Accusations of working with Cato to demonize and get rid of Polar are absolutely straight out of cloud cuckoo land. Please back that up or move on!
Atlas crewmembers are asking tough questions but it's not about our MEC it's about the total lack of support at ALPA national level and what we Atlas pilots can do about it. We...are moving on!