DHL/ATLAS/POLAR Connection?
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Originally Posted by BELOWMINS
Gritty
Better reread the relevant law on single carrier status. ALPA can't "declare" single carrier status for anyone. They can "apply" to the NMB for single carrier status as the representaive of a particular labor group and go through the hearing process to prove their case. The other labor group involved can agree or disagree. A reading of the recent TWA/American single carrier proceedings before the NMB pretty well sums up the whole process.
Better reread the relevant law on single carrier status. ALPA can't "declare" single carrier status for anyone. They can "apply" to the NMB for single carrier status as the representaive of a particular labor group and go through the hearing process to prove their case. The other labor group involved can agree or disagree. A reading of the recent TWA/American single carrier proceedings before the NMB pretty well sums up the whole process.
It has happened recently with US Air during their push to leave ALPA. Which did just recently concluded with ALPA being decertified.
Here is the NMB ruling on the single carrier (USA and AWA) status. It concluded that it was a single carrier in it's findings.
Here in PDF
Just curious, how long of a period do Polar crews have for the right of recall? I know they have gotten new hires in the last year. Did everyone refuse recall?
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 26th Apr 2008 at 17:11.
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Gritty
USAIRWAYS and AWA meet the criteria for a single carrier.
Atlas and Polar are a very different situation.
AAWW presents Atlas and Polar to the public as different airlines. They have separate operating certificates with the stated intention of keeping both. Both have separate flight operations management teams. These major items plus a few minor ones like uniforms make this situation very unlikely to result in a finding for single carrier status.
USAIRWAYS and AWA meet the criteria for a single carrier.
Atlas and Polar are a very different situation.
AAWW presents Atlas and Polar to the public as different airlines. They have separate operating certificates with the stated intention of keeping both. Both have separate flight operations management teams. These major items plus a few minor ones like uniforms make this situation very unlikely to result in a finding for single carrier status.
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Same HQ,
Same management
Same Payroll department
Same scheduling department
Same dispatch center
Same travel department
Same Training Center
Same Publications and manuals
Same Safety Department
Same Maintenance Department and mechanics
Same ground personnel where we have them (same contractors where we don't)
Same Web-site
Same Ops-specs (verbiage - exact copies)
Same Legal Department
Same HR Department
Polar CP interviews Atlas candidates and vice versa
FAA approved Multiple Operating Certificate Training Program
and the real test - Polar cannot exist ie. does not have the infrastructure to exist outside of AAWH.
Management has already merged the company and the pilots. They are just waiting to get the merged seniority list done. Waiting for Bobbrobbin - as are the rest of us who just want to get ON with this thing so we can get to a contract.
I dunno sounds like one company to me.
Same management
Same Payroll department
Same scheduling department
Same dispatch center
Same travel department
Same Training Center
Same Publications and manuals
Same Safety Department
Same Maintenance Department and mechanics
Same ground personnel where we have them (same contractors where we don't)
Same Web-site
Same Ops-specs (verbiage - exact copies)
Same Legal Department
Same HR Department
Polar CP interviews Atlas candidates and vice versa
FAA approved Multiple Operating Certificate Training Program
and the real test - Polar cannot exist ie. does not have the infrastructure to exist outside of AAWH.
Management has already merged the company and the pilots. They are just waiting to get the merged seniority list done. Waiting for Bobbrobbin - as are the rest of us who just want to get ON with this thing so we can get to a contract.
I dunno sounds like one company to me.
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Whale,
Under which certificate would the pilot group operate?? Extremely simple question. Either the Atlas certificate or the Polar certificate. If you dont know. Just say " I DONT KNOW". It has to be one or the other.
Under which certificate would the pilot group operate?? Extremely simple question. Either the Atlas certificate or the Polar certificate. If you dont know. Just say " I DONT KNOW". It has to be one or the other.
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I might be Sorry
As I said earlier, I have no dog in this fight, but I was there in Anchorage when I overheard the Atlas crewmembers tell the Polar guys they did'nt care about the strike they were making "BIG BUCKS" blank you! I saw the Delta, Northwest and UPS pilots try to convince the Atlas crews not to break the picket line. I also saw the Atlas crewmembers snuck out from the basement of the Marriott almost driving over the picketters. I have heard about several Atlas crewmembers that did go above and beyond, and did on one occasion actually see a Atlas Pilot turn his truck around when he saw the picket line. To those folks I apoligize. The rest get what they deserve! Bourne
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Sounds like you're telegraphing Dave and Johns big power play on behalf of Cato, Tom. Been in the works for a year.
Wonder if the Atlas membership are going to pay the tab just so Dave can have the big job he wants at the Teamsters, and Caputo/Alves can keep on keepin on...
Wonder if the Atlas membership are going to pay the tab just so Dave can have the big job he wants at the Teamsters, and Caputo/Alves can keep on keepin on...
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WD101
The answer is BOTH. Just like CAL and CAL Micro. It is a thing called Multiple Operating Certificates and is common in 135 world and as you can see from the CAL/Micro operation, also available to the 121 world. Each certificate has to have their own Pt. 119 required DO, CP, and DM but the rest of the operation is interchangeable and pilots can fly routes and airplanes on either certificate. It is not that hard to understand and has been explained to you and others MANY times.
The Polar scope language says "complete operational merger" it makes no mention of "merged under one certificate," or "operating under one certificate" - so it remains to be seen what the arbitrator will say - I don't think you have a leg to stand on but we will see in July.
Billybob - so you do have a dog in the fight. I too was in ANC and I saw those same UPS/FedEx Evergreen SAT NWA cargo et. al. cross the fake polar picket line. Most Atlas crews took steps to ensure that there was no Polar cargo on the airplane. I can guarantee that NWA cargo pilots, UPS pilots, FedEx pilots and all the others cared less and didn't bother (not that they could anyways) to check waybills or physically check cargo to ensure that it was not Polar cargo. One of the "blacked out buses" that came out from the basement and was chased down by Daryl W's wife actually had an Evergreen crew in it. I have heard there are pictures, video, and a van drivers statement to back that up.
So you were blindsided by the emotion of the deal. I can respect that. However, if you had put up a REAL picket line and manned it 24 hours a day like REAL trade unionists then you might have gotten less vitriol from the Atlas pilots. Picketing only when and Atlas aircraft is on the ground specifically targeted the Atlas pilots when they were the only ones supporting you! Of course they are gonna be mad - wouldn't you be? Time for you all to step up and be men. Take ownership of your very poor strategy during your strike. EVERYONE else on the planet carried your cargo. Atlas pilots didn't, or at least tried hard not to.
The answer is BOTH. Just like CAL and CAL Micro. It is a thing called Multiple Operating Certificates and is common in 135 world and as you can see from the CAL/Micro operation, also available to the 121 world. Each certificate has to have their own Pt. 119 required DO, CP, and DM but the rest of the operation is interchangeable and pilots can fly routes and airplanes on either certificate. It is not that hard to understand and has been explained to you and others MANY times.
The Polar scope language says "complete operational merger" it makes no mention of "merged under one certificate," or "operating under one certificate" - so it remains to be seen what the arbitrator will say - I don't think you have a leg to stand on but we will see in July.
Billybob - so you do have a dog in the fight. I too was in ANC and I saw those same UPS/FedEx Evergreen SAT NWA cargo et. al. cross the fake polar picket line. Most Atlas crews took steps to ensure that there was no Polar cargo on the airplane. I can guarantee that NWA cargo pilots, UPS pilots, FedEx pilots and all the others cared less and didn't bother (not that they could anyways) to check waybills or physically check cargo to ensure that it was not Polar cargo. One of the "blacked out buses" that came out from the basement and was chased down by Daryl W's wife actually had an Evergreen crew in it. I have heard there are pictures, video, and a van drivers statement to back that up.
So you were blindsided by the emotion of the deal. I can respect that. However, if you had put up a REAL picket line and manned it 24 hours a day like REAL trade unionists then you might have gotten less vitriol from the Atlas pilots. Picketing only when and Atlas aircraft is on the ground specifically targeted the Atlas pilots when they were the only ones supporting you! Of course they are gonna be mad - wouldn't you be? Time for you all to step up and be men. Take ownership of your very poor strategy during your strike. EVERYONE else on the planet carried your cargo. Atlas pilots didn't, or at least tried hard not to.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 27th Apr 2008 at 00:47.
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I can tell you as someone that works at Evergreen we had crews checking for Polar AWB #'s on our flights out of HKG and PVG. I can also tell you we had some delayed flights because they found some pallets with Polar AWB #'s
and the crews would not move the planes till the pallets were removed. We also had a pilot working for EIA that was married to a Polar pilot that made sure that all the crews knew to look for the Polar AWB #'s. They would look at the cargo docs or they could check the AWB stickers on the pallets. I am not saying that every crew did this but I know a good number of them did.
Also Evergreen was staying at the Sheraton back then and I think that crew that was chased down in the crew bus was coming from the Airport to the hotel.
I know our guys did what we could to make sure there was no Polar cargo on our flights.
and the crews would not move the planes till the pallets were removed. We also had a pilot working for EIA that was married to a Polar pilot that made sure that all the crews knew to look for the Polar AWB #'s. They would look at the cargo docs or they could check the AWB stickers on the pallets. I am not saying that every crew did this but I know a good number of them did.
Also Evergreen was staying at the Sheraton back then and I think that crew that was chased down in the crew bus was coming from the Airport to the hotel.
I know our guys did what we could to make sure there was no Polar cargo on our flights.
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Sid,
And I am not accusing you. All I was really saying is that you crossed a Polar picket line (I know - if there was not an Atlas Airplane on the ground it was probably only a truck parked kitty corner from the FAA building with a sign on it) to fly YOUR airplanes - you searched for Polar waybills as did most Atlas crews. But they are accusing us of crossing their picket line to fly OUR airplanes when many many other crews did the same thing; crossed a Polar picket line to fly their own airplanes. We also looked for Polar waybills. For most other crews it was not even on their radar. And knowing how the FedEx and UPS operations work, it would be impossible to do. The Polar guys were so busy trying to plan their strategy to target Atlas pilots that they "forgot" to tell us that there were TWO numbers that designated Polar. Or perhaps they didn't know.
In any case MOST Atlas pilots did the same checked the waybills they could and inspected the cargo they could see. Remember however that it is also really hard to check hundreds of way bills and inspect ALL cargo (and all sides of every pallet) on a 747 freighter in the one hour turn we had in ANC. Heck the Loadmasters in ICN could have buried the waybills and put the cargo in the lower cargo deck and we would NEVER see it in a one hour turn in ANC.
I am glad to know that I was wrong and that Daryl's wife was chasing the van coming from the airport. Kind of hard to tell in the video.
Atlas guys did what we could also - in fact did more than we should have for a group that has demonstrated how much they hate us.
And I am not accusing you. All I was really saying is that you crossed a Polar picket line (I know - if there was not an Atlas Airplane on the ground it was probably only a truck parked kitty corner from the FAA building with a sign on it) to fly YOUR airplanes - you searched for Polar waybills as did most Atlas crews. But they are accusing us of crossing their picket line to fly OUR airplanes when many many other crews did the same thing; crossed a Polar picket line to fly their own airplanes. We also looked for Polar waybills. For most other crews it was not even on their radar. And knowing how the FedEx and UPS operations work, it would be impossible to do. The Polar guys were so busy trying to plan their strategy to target Atlas pilots that they "forgot" to tell us that there were TWO numbers that designated Polar. Or perhaps they didn't know.
In any case MOST Atlas pilots did the same checked the waybills they could and inspected the cargo they could see. Remember however that it is also really hard to check hundreds of way bills and inspect ALL cargo (and all sides of every pallet) on a 747 freighter in the one hour turn we had in ANC. Heck the Loadmasters in ICN could have buried the waybills and put the cargo in the lower cargo deck and we would NEVER see it in a one hour turn in ANC.
I am glad to know that I was wrong and that Daryl's wife was chasing the van coming from the airport. Kind of hard to tell in the video.
Atlas guys did what we could also - in fact did more than we should have for a group that has demonstrated how much they hate us.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 27th Apr 2008 at 04:10.
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I was curious how long it would take to get to this again.
It is no secret that Polar has President Prater's ear and smoking his pole. Both hating Atlas and ACMI in general. That has been known since President Prater's election selling his influence for votes. When Prater appointed an independent panel to hear an alternative dispute resolution over this issue (as independent as that can be Hah!) they found that all the accusations Polar made were false resulting in an apology from Prater himself.
Link to that at ALPA decision along with some audio:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172
I know it sounds so much better to BS around the breakfast table in PVG over what so-and-so had heard from a distant third cousin with a sloped forehead during the strike or voicing it to some other carriers crews at the bar, and bulletin boards like pprune. In the end, ALPA National said Polar was wrong despite it having all the political pull in the politics of ALPA. Take it or leave it. I won't even go into what Polar did at the Atlas countdown to strike. National came up with it while Polar is in it's good graces with President Prater, so live with it.
Can we get back to the more germane parts of this thread?
It is no secret that Polar has President Prater's ear and smoking his pole. Both hating Atlas and ACMI in general. That has been known since President Prater's election selling his influence for votes. When Prater appointed an independent panel to hear an alternative dispute resolution over this issue (as independent as that can be Hah!) they found that all the accusations Polar made were false resulting in an apology from Prater himself.
Link to that at ALPA decision along with some audio:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172
I know it sounds so much better to BS around the breakfast table in PVG over what so-and-so had heard from a distant third cousin with a sloped forehead during the strike or voicing it to some other carriers crews at the bar, and bulletin boards like pprune. In the end, ALPA National said Polar was wrong despite it having all the political pull in the politics of ALPA. Take it or leave it. I won't even go into what Polar did at the Atlas countdown to strike. National came up with it while Polar is in it's good graces with President Prater, so live with it.
Can we get back to the more germane parts of this thread?
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 27th Apr 2008 at 08:35.
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If anyone thinks that DHL is the panacea for all had better read the ASTAR Airlines race to the bottom's thread. The enemy is management styles not other councils.
On a side questions; has anyone heard the results of the section 8 hearing against the Polar MEC? The results were to be out yesterday.
On a side questions; has anyone heard the results of the section 8 hearing against the Polar MEC? The results were to be out yesterday.
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Actually the results were out Friday. The three puppets running the hearing said that an MEC could sell used cars on the VARS if they wished. No duty to be honest. No duty to be fair. No duty of fair representation. An MEC can say anything they want. Guess this will really open things up for Bobbrobin.
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WHALEFR8
I'm getting a bit confused. When you win, as in the ADR hearing, it's in spite of the fact you have no friends or support from ALPA.
When you lose, as in the Section 8 hearing, it's because you have no friends or support at ALPA.
I'm getting a bit confused. When you win, as in the ADR hearing, it's in spite of the fact you have no friends or support from ALPA.
When you lose, as in the Section 8 hearing, it's because you have no friends or support at ALPA.
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It is fun to parrot Bobb on this page. But to have meaningful discussion you need to pay attention to the actual event, not just say what Bobbrobin want you to say.
The ADR came as a result of a lawsuit filed by 128 Atlas pilots against Polar which of course means against ALPA, as ALPA indemnifies the actions of their MECs. The 128 Pilots (well most of them anyways), agreed to accept the ADR - which means Alternate Dispute Resolution - in an attempt to bring resolution to the situation quicker, and with less pain to both groups. In the ultimate no-good-deed-goes-unpunished, they were finally, weeks after the actual award, written a letter by Prater which met the letter of the ADR but certainly NOT the spirit and definitely didn't meet their expectations of a resolution. These 128 pilots, unlike the Polar guys who have ALL their outside counsel bills paid by ALPA, had to pay for their own attorney.
So now how is it that you feel they got some support from ALPA during the ADR? They had to sue ALPA just to get what they got; and it wasn't much.
As an interesting example of what I am talking about, here is the latest letter from Prater and ALPA concerning Capt Beebe's departure. Look at the brand spankey new "letterhead" on the left. See Atlas listed in there anywhere?
Still confused?
The ADR came as a result of a lawsuit filed by 128 Atlas pilots against Polar which of course means against ALPA, as ALPA indemnifies the actions of their MECs. The 128 Pilots (well most of them anyways), agreed to accept the ADR - which means Alternate Dispute Resolution - in an attempt to bring resolution to the situation quicker, and with less pain to both groups. In the ultimate no-good-deed-goes-unpunished, they were finally, weeks after the actual award, written a letter by Prater which met the letter of the ADR but certainly NOT the spirit and definitely didn't meet their expectations of a resolution. These 128 pilots, unlike the Polar guys who have ALL their outside counsel bills paid by ALPA, had to pay for their own attorney.
So now how is it that you feel they got some support from ALPA during the ADR? They had to sue ALPA just to get what they got; and it wasn't much.
As an interesting example of what I am talking about, here is the latest letter from Prater and ALPA concerning Capt Beebe's departure. Look at the brand spankey new "letterhead" on the left. See Atlas listed in there anywhere?
Still confused?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 27th Apr 2008 at 23:16.
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It sounds more and more like your council was, and is, a mess. Wouldn't a little introspection be better than blaming others? As Pogo once said "We have met the enemy and it is us". Most of the time this is so true.
Last edited by trashhauler; 28th Apr 2008 at 11:57. Reason: incomplete
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I just finished reading the atlasforteamsters web site. Especially the letter to Polar crew members. You are kidding aren't you? After so much Polar crew and especially the MEC bashing, not to mention the section 8 charges that were thrown out, that Polar would even consider joining forces with you. I am furloughed at Polar, but I support the MEC. I agree with the previous post. You had better look at yourselves first. Then check out the wonderful job the Teamsters did with the Champion and ABX crews. As much as I detest ALPA, I really think you are making a very big mistake. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, how about assessing what you are doing wrong, then fix it.
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Teamsters:
Good:
Wrote a good scope
Kept us from being fisted by mainline pilots represented by ALPA
QX and World contracts
Bad:
Business agent died and it only took 7 years to replace the individual with the person that was his secretary
Never, EVER had a professional negotiator
Most dues went to the International. We had an assessment to cover flight pay loss. The percent of dues ended up closer than they advertise.
They also lost a majority of grievances. Especially the ones that REALLY mattered.
Hap-hazard, at best, communication
No support other than what we could cajole from them.
F'ers never even gave me a lanyard.
9 years with them
Good:
Wrote a good scope
Kept us from being fisted by mainline pilots represented by ALPA
QX and World contracts
Bad:
Business agent died and it only took 7 years to replace the individual with the person that was his secretary
Never, EVER had a professional negotiator
Most dues went to the International. We had an assessment to cover flight pay loss. The percent of dues ended up closer than they advertise.
They also lost a majority of grievances. Especially the ones that REALLY mattered.
Hap-hazard, at best, communication
No support other than what we could cajole from them.
F'ers never even gave me a lanyard.
9 years with them
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When UPS bought Champion the union was told there wouldn't be any loss of jobs. The Teamsters bought off on it. Guess what, I sat in Nicaragua listening to a Champion crew lamenting on how the union would not fight for them when the aquisition was complete. Both handed me resumes. Although we didn't have 757's they both got hired.