Old B74F aircraft and their operations
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Dan -
xxx
I am just a pilot (and old fart at that)...!
I studied aerodynamics... flunked eko-no-meeks...
Cannot even spell that word.
All the best.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I am just a pilot (and old fart at that)...!
I studied aerodynamics... flunked eko-no-meeks...
Cannot even spell that word.
All the best.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I forgot about accountants
... accountants never studied aerodynamics...
... or flight planning, routes selection, wind and level trades.
... they cannot read a TAF.
... they get upset if we require 3T extra fuel and take 3T off payload.
... they think all works as Mr. Boeing's salesman claimed the plane will do.
... they forget a 2% performance degradation factor.
... at 5:00pm local time, they go home.
... while I hurry to airport, to be advised of freight trucks by road 4 hrs late
... and when I fly, I still try to save fuel, but never get even a thank you.
xxx
Happy contrails
... or flight planning, routes selection, wind and level trades.
... they cannot read a TAF.
... they get upset if we require 3T extra fuel and take 3T off payload.
... they think all works as Mr. Boeing's salesman claimed the plane will do.
... they forget a 2% performance degradation factor.
... at 5:00pm local time, they go home.
... while I hurry to airport, to be advised of freight trucks by road 4 hrs late
... and when I fly, I still try to save fuel, but never get even a thank you.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no doubt the -400 carries "more for less" than the older jurrasic jumbo. However, when you take in the cost of aquiring a "gucci jet" vs, the older jumbo, the cost factor difference gets a lot narrower. I am sure that the Kallita classics and Southern jumbos are making them money, otherwise they would not be ramping up the fleets.
The FAA is making it a bit harder for the "aging fleet" by requiring more extensive inspections. That may be the death of the older aircraft. Maintenance costs can go through the roof. But the "old lady" can still deliver, and will, until the forces of economics finally catches up. Let's hope it is a long way out.
The FAA is making it a bit harder for the "aging fleet" by requiring more extensive inspections. That may be the death of the older aircraft. Maintenance costs can go through the roof. But the "old lady" can still deliver, and will, until the forces of economics finally catches up. Let's hope it is a long way out.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: home
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many of those aircrafts are flying stuff for the war in Irak. If you remove that "economic" sector, the demand for heavy transport would fall and many operators (who are now making buckets of money from that) would go under.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wish USA taxpayers woud know...
xxx
Some, if not all USA cargo operations fly supplies to Iraq... and Afghanistan...
Big money, Air Force fuel...
They offload in Bagdad, Kuwait, in Kabul...
xxx
Thereafter, funny things happen...
They max their fuel tanks (free Air Force fuel again)
"for a empty trip back to the US of A..."
...
But... on the way back they stop...
Call it Franfurt, Amsterdam, Luxembourg, London...
And they load cargo, for LH, KL, CV or BA... destination US of A...!
xxx
And Connie and the others go to the banks for another deposit...
Happy contrails
xxx
Some, if not all USA cargo operations fly supplies to Iraq... and Afghanistan...
Big money, Air Force fuel...
They offload in Bagdad, Kuwait, in Kabul...
xxx
Thereafter, funny things happen...
They max their fuel tanks (free Air Force fuel again)
"for a empty trip back to the US of A..."
...
But... on the way back they stop...
Call it Franfurt, Amsterdam, Luxembourg, London...
And they load cargo, for LH, KL, CV or BA... destination US of A...!
xxx
And Connie and the others go to the banks for another deposit...
Happy contrails
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In da north country
Age: 62
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No more free fuel for the taking. That only happens when war is classified as a real "WAR".
I don't think Connie paid more than 5 million for any of his airplanes. They are all paid for. owes nada! The amount of money he saves on monthly payments to the bank, he can buy a whole lot of fuel!
We fairy empty airplanes to HKG, Korea and China, and still make a profit at the end of the trip! Anyone who says you can't make money with a classic really does not know what they are talking about.
Our -100's still have a viable niche in this market. They are great for 5-6 hour legs and can still carry 200,000 lbs comfortably. Most of our -200's have "Q" powered Pratts, one "R" powered and a few "J" powered. Our 2, 750,000 lb. -100's have "J"motors installed.
The -400's will probably be financed, but I assure you, our -400's will be acquired for far less than market value. Thats the way the man operates. Thats how he makes money.
I don't think Connie paid more than 5 million for any of his airplanes. They are all paid for. owes nada! The amount of money he saves on monthly payments to the bank, he can buy a whole lot of fuel!
We fairy empty airplanes to HKG, Korea and China, and still make a profit at the end of the trip! Anyone who says you can't make money with a classic really does not know what they are talking about.
Our -100's still have a viable niche in this market. They are great for 5-6 hour legs and can still carry 200,000 lbs comfortably. Most of our -200's have "Q" powered Pratts, one "R" powered and a few "J" powered. Our 2, 750,000 lb. -100's have "J"motors installed.
The -400's will probably be financed, but I assure you, our -400's will be acquired for far less than market value. Thats the way the man operates. Thats how he makes money.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Willit Run...
I did not know it was not a real war...
xxx
You guys run empty to HKG and still make money with payload one-way only?
That is impressive - Hooray for Connie...
I know Evergreen used to do that, long ago, when they were flirting with JAL.
They also own their older planes outright...
And as you say "no plane payments" - you think same frequency as my brains.
xxx
I ferried N712CK (ex-Connie) to deliver to the Sheik of Dubai... was 2001...
Then flew it around with race horses, for 30 days to train the Dubai crews.
Was surprised he sold it, was a fairly good machine, ex-Kuwait -269 with SCD.
Heard Connie had so many problems with floors and doors of some 100s...
Guess they were called GATX STC doors and floors.
But that was 10 years ago. Surprise to hear some -100SFs still active.
xxx
All the best to you
Happy contrails
I did not know it was not a real war...
xxx
You guys run empty to HKG and still make money with payload one-way only?
That is impressive - Hooray for Connie...
I know Evergreen used to do that, long ago, when they were flirting with JAL.
They also own their older planes outright...
And as you say "no plane payments" - you think same frequency as my brains.
xxx
I ferried N712CK (ex-Connie) to deliver to the Sheik of Dubai... was 2001...
Then flew it around with race horses, for 30 days to train the Dubai crews.
Was surprised he sold it, was a fairly good machine, ex-Kuwait -269 with SCD.
Heard Connie had so many problems with floors and doors of some 100s...
Guess they were called GATX STC doors and floors.
But that was 10 years ago. Surprise to hear some -100SFs still active.
xxx
All the best to you
Happy contrails
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In da north country
Age: 62
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BelArg,
I think we have 5 -100's flying, 3-734,000 and 2 -750,000 lb birds.
As for the war, its not an official "WAR" anymore, according to the DOD. Police Action I think.
There are so many facets of the cargo world that make the older planes so attractive. Some economists think in a narrow field, that thinking outside the box(no pun intended) doesn't fit their business plan, and they think flying older planes isn't economical.
Were up to 19 right now. We have CMC FMS's with EHSI's and EADI's.GNSS updating, plus a Litton 92 w/ updating and a Trimble 2101. Our W&B is all computerized as well as our performance. EFB's are on the way as well as electronic Engine instruments for the front and back. Manuels are all on Disc and our weather radar is being updated to overlay on the EHSI's. As far as Classics go, they are pretty cool.
I think we have 5 -100's flying, 3-734,000 and 2 -750,000 lb birds.
As for the war, its not an official "WAR" anymore, according to the DOD. Police Action I think.
There are so many facets of the cargo world that make the older planes so attractive. Some economists think in a narrow field, that thinking outside the box(no pun intended) doesn't fit their business plan, and they think flying older planes isn't economical.
Were up to 19 right now. We have CMC FMS's with EHSI's and EADI's.GNSS updating, plus a Litton 92 w/ updating and a Trimble 2101. Our W&B is all computerized as well as our performance. EFB's are on the way as well as electronic Engine instruments for the front and back. Manuels are all on Disc and our weather radar is being updated to overlay on the EHSI's. As far as Classics go, they are pretty cool.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Colorado
Age: 59
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other factor to consider....
PARTS.
This is Connie's and Southern's angle. And this is why Focus and Ocean Air are struggling. Connie has his own heavy MX and Southern has a huge supply of parts and their own engine shop.
Plus these carriers will fly and aircraft until it is within hours of needing a heavy "D" check, then park them. This gives them a huge tax write-off, plus they can sell or lease parts from these aircraft they have parked and get top dollar for the parts since they come off an acft that is still flyable (Even though it is within a few hours of not being flyable).
This allows Connie and Southern to lease their acft at very attractive rates to a customer. Something Ocean Air and Focus are unable to do.
This is Connie's and Southern's angle. And this is why Focus and Ocean Air are struggling. Connie has his own heavy MX and Southern has a huge supply of parts and their own engine shop.
Plus these carriers will fly and aircraft until it is within hours of needing a heavy "D" check, then park them. This gives them a huge tax write-off, plus they can sell or lease parts from these aircraft they have parked and get top dollar for the parts since they come off an acft that is still flyable (Even though it is within a few hours of not being flyable).
This allows Connie and Southern to lease their acft at very attractive rates to a customer. Something Ocean Air and Focus are unable to do.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Connie has quite a parts supply also. He bought some pax birds from JAL just for parts. Up in Oscoda it looks like a 74 boneyard. I heard he got government money to build a new hangar too.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some numbers to consider:
Based on factory -400F (as opposed to -400BCF)
Fuel burn benefit over -200F = approx 200USG/hr.
Over 8 hr sector, at USD3.00 per USG = USD4,800 benefit.
ACMI rate for -400F circa USD6500 per hr
ACMI rate for -200F circa USD4300 per hr
Difference = USD2200 per hour in favour of -200F.
Total over 8 hr sector = USD17,600.
Hence, assuming all other costs equal, operating cost benefit for -200F = USD12,800.
But then look at payload - in practice you'll be luck to get 95t chargeable weight on -200F for 8 hr sector. For a -400F, you can easily plan on 110t chargeable weight. Difference 15t.
At USD3.00/kg, extra revenue is USD45,000 in favour of -400F.
At USD2.00/kg, extra revenue is USD30,000
At USD1.00/kg, extra revenue is USD15,000
Hence, over 8 hrs, with full payloads,the -400F wins by a country mile at high yields and even at lower yields...
But....at 6hr sectors, the difference is less. Operating cost benefit for -200F is down to USD9,600. But payload difference drops to maybe, for arguments sake, say 5t.
At USD3/kg = extra rev USD15k, so USD5k benefit for -400F
At USD2/kg = extra rev of USD10k, so benefit only USD400, ie evens
At USD1/kg = extra rev of USD5k, benfit in favour of -200F by almost USD5k.
So, for the -400F to make sense, you need good cargo yield, full payloads over longer sectors and high fuel prices.
As soon as your payloads or yields fall, then even the high fuel prices do not make the -400F a winner.
Conclusion - they are both winners depending on where they operate and how they are operated. Put either on the right route and it can make money. But fail to fill them up, let them break, and then you have an almight finacial headache....
Based on factory -400F (as opposed to -400BCF)
Fuel burn benefit over -200F = approx 200USG/hr.
Over 8 hr sector, at USD3.00 per USG = USD4,800 benefit.
ACMI rate for -400F circa USD6500 per hr
ACMI rate for -200F circa USD4300 per hr
Difference = USD2200 per hour in favour of -200F.
Total over 8 hr sector = USD17,600.
Hence, assuming all other costs equal, operating cost benefit for -200F = USD12,800.
But then look at payload - in practice you'll be luck to get 95t chargeable weight on -200F for 8 hr sector. For a -400F, you can easily plan on 110t chargeable weight. Difference 15t.
At USD3.00/kg, extra revenue is USD45,000 in favour of -400F.
At USD2.00/kg, extra revenue is USD30,000
At USD1.00/kg, extra revenue is USD15,000
Hence, over 8 hrs, with full payloads,the -400F wins by a country mile at high yields and even at lower yields...
But....at 6hr sectors, the difference is less. Operating cost benefit for -200F is down to USD9,600. But payload difference drops to maybe, for arguments sake, say 5t.
At USD3/kg = extra rev USD15k, so USD5k benefit for -400F
At USD2/kg = extra rev of USD10k, so benefit only USD400, ie evens
At USD1/kg = extra rev of USD5k, benfit in favour of -200F by almost USD5k.
So, for the -400F to make sense, you need good cargo yield, full payloads over longer sectors and high fuel prices.
As soon as your payloads or yields fall, then even the high fuel prices do not make the -400F a winner.
Conclusion - they are both winners depending on where they operate and how they are operated. Put either on the right route and it can make money. But fail to fill them up, let them break, and then you have an almight finacial headache....
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: DisneyLux SARL
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We buy/sell and part out the 200/300 series 747 pax and freight.
747-300 Pax JT9D-7R4G2 $5 Million ( one year flying left)
747-300 Pax No engines for part out $950,000.00
Also on the lot there is a friend of ours with a -70A powered -200 for sale. He wants around the $6.5 Million for it.
SAA 747-400 went to the Russians for around the $35 Million mark each in as is / where is condition.
According to Aircraft Values News a 747-400F still pulls $750,000.00 lease rate per month as compared to $80,000.00 to $120,000.00 for a youngish -200F.
747-300 Pax JT9D-7R4G2 $5 Million ( one year flying left)
747-300 Pax No engines for part out $950,000.00
Also on the lot there is a friend of ours with a -70A powered -200 for sale. He wants around the $6.5 Million for it.
SAA 747-400 went to the Russians for around the $35 Million mark each in as is / where is condition.
According to Aircraft Values News a 747-400F still pulls $750,000.00 lease rate per month as compared to $80,000.00 to $120,000.00 for a youngish -200F.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh oh oh...
xxx
747-271F for sale, JT9D-70A motors...
Outstanding engines... (provided you NEVER ever deploy reversers).
One reverser cycle = aircraft AOG for next 30 days.
xxx
If you deploy the 4 reversers after landing, might be forced to taxi to ramp backwards.
Not easy to "powerback" with a whale...
I would suggest that specific training, to the crews of your future customer.
xxx
The "Queens" of Seabord World Airlines... in memoriam...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
747-271F for sale, JT9D-70A motors...
Outstanding engines... (provided you NEVER ever deploy reversers).
One reverser cycle = aircraft AOG for next 30 days.
xxx
If you deploy the 4 reversers after landing, might be forced to taxi to ramp backwards.
Not easy to "powerback" with a whale...
I would suggest that specific training, to the crews of your future customer.
xxx
The "Queens" of Seabord World Airlines... in memoriam...
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: tracy island
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jt9-d70a
271f 2r7f
this model was i think limited to tow 820000 lbs and ldw 620000 lbs with no extended zero fuel x max payload around 110000 kgs gross
maeshe good call on figures-these are spot on for today's market on acmi for classic and 400f
200f are good for africa and south am..not so much asia ,unless hkg in season and one stop to europe via a cis country and a good fuel price
ie: kgf!!!
70a will not make noise regulations in europe soon.
this model was i think limited to tow 820000 lbs and ldw 620000 lbs with no extended zero fuel x max payload around 110000 kgs gross
maeshe good call on figures-these are spot on for today's market on acmi for classic and 400f
200f are good for africa and south am..not so much asia ,unless hkg in season and one stop to europe via a cis country and a good fuel price
ie: kgf!!!
70a will not make noise regulations in europe soon.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey BelArgUSA,
I sometimes wondered where some of those ex-Kuwaiti 747-269's went, I used to fly 'em in Kuwait Airways, left there in DEC94.
That's when they parked 2 of their 4 747-269's, as they made the mistake of buying A340's, needless to say, the 74's were back in service a couple of months later!
Cheers, FD
I sometimes wondered where some of those ex-Kuwaiti 747-269's went, I used to fly 'em in Kuwait Airways, left there in DEC94.
That's when they parked 2 of their 4 747-269's, as they made the mistake of buying A340's, needless to say, the 74's were back in service a couple of months later!
Cheers, FD
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gone from the FL sun to the desert Oasis
Age: 61
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like it is time to revive this thread.
With Focus Air, Ocean, and now Tradewinds closing or shutting
down their B747F Classic operations, and fuel at $130USD a barrel,
will the economics of running such aircraft be coming to an end??
On the other hand, with fewer carriers in the ACMI business now,
traffic might be better for the remaining players.
With Focus Air, Ocean, and now Tradewinds closing or shutting
down their B747F Classic operations, and fuel at $130USD a barrel,
will the economics of running such aircraft be coming to an end??
On the other hand, with fewer carriers in the ACMI business now,
traffic might be better for the remaining players.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the Democrats get in and reduce the forces in Iraq then all those 'Reach' callsigns are going to come crashing back into the commercial market. The ensuing dogfight will be what finishes off the carriers that are marginal, and will be the demise of the 'steamer' as well.
As an aside, CXs latest plan is to use the Classic round Asia on less than 6hr sectors and then transfer the frieight to EU and US via -400. As long as you've got the maintenance and spares backup (as CX has) keeping the -400 in the air for 14hrs and the Classic on the ground in CGK or somewhere waiting for freight still makes commercial sense, or the beancounters at CX would have cut them in a New York minute.............
As an aside, CXs latest plan is to use the Classic round Asia on less than 6hr sectors and then transfer the frieight to EU and US via -400. As long as you've got the maintenance and spares backup (as CX has) keeping the -400 in the air for 14hrs and the Classic on the ground in CGK or somewhere waiting for freight still makes commercial sense, or the beancounters at CX would have cut them in a New York minute.............